[TheDude]

If ever there were a Pandora's Box of energy it's clathrates. Nuclear power safety issues make me feel quite snug in comparison. And nature is going to foist methane on us in any case, too.

Jean Laherrère wrote a piece for TOD calling into question the reserves estimates for hydrates, too. Doubt with the heat turned up it will save our bacon, though.

[dohboi]

I'll ditto the Dude (generally a safe thing to do).

Poking around in this hornets nest is likely to be the fastest way to send the earth into climate armageddon. It is quite unstable, especially on slopes, and mucking around in it is likely to cause landslides that will send off huge plumes of methane. This has been talked about at length in threads on the environmental forum.

I love it when they say things like "with existing technology" nicely leaving how whether said technology can be practically applied. We have the "existing technology" to make sheets of plastic, so presumably we could cover all the swamps in the world with plastic and collect "swamp gas" (old term for methane).

Multiply the complexity and impracticability by some hundred fold and you get an idea how easily we could capture methane hydrates with "existing technology."

[edit: By the way, I like the irony of the fact that it was the "Anti-doomer" who brought us this gem, and idea that would most rapidly doom complex life on earth to the dustbin of extinction.]

[copious.abundance]

I think this is the crux of these Alaskan deposits:

“For more than 25 years, the USGS has conducted gas hydrate research in northern Alaska, showing the investment of our agency in understanding this resource,” said USGS Director Mark Myers. “This is especially important now that a growing body of evidence indicates that concentrated gas hydrate accumulations in conventional hydrocarbon reservoirs, such as those in northern Alaska, can be produced with existing technology.”

Among the various techniques for production of natural gas from gas hydrates, depressurization appears to be the most promising method. This involves changing the pressure of the hydrate accumulation, which changes the resource from a solid state into components of gas and water that can be produced to the surface. Depressurization was the only production technique assessed in this estimate.

In other words, these particular hydrates are locked up in all the oil and gas fields on the North Slope - in addition to the regular oil and gas. Apparently hydrates need not always be located on an ocean floor.

Just use your brain for a minute. The vast majority of natural gas is obtained from oil deposits anyway, when the pressure changes hydrates become natural gas, its the same thing as conventional natural gas recovery.

You can't make a silk shirt from a sow's ear, but you CAN make bullshit from thin air.

I was merely responding to this:

Not to mention that the energy required to scrape this frosting from the undersea rocks would make a rock festival cleanup look like a snooze on the beach.

In the case of the Alaskan deposits, they aren't gathered from "undersea rocks."

If it's the same thing as conventional natural gas recovery, then that means it'll be all the more easy to extract the stuff. I bet these Alaskan ones have a really good EROEI, too.

[copious.abundance]

then it is regular gas recovery. How are we to know that regular gas deposits do not appear the same or similar under pressure under the ground?

Good question. Maybe we should ask Rockman or one of our other geologists.

[Tanada]

then it is regular gas recovery. How are we to know that regular gas deposits do not appear the same or similar under pressure under the ground?

Good question. Maybe we should ask Rockman or one of our other geologists.

I'm no geologist, however as I recall the Russian do have a large field in Siberia that has a methane hydrate cap that they have been producing from for many years at a low rate. The theoretical model to explain how that field works is as they draw off gas saturated water from below the cap the decline in pressure causes the hydrates to decompose at a slow rate, refilling the gas saturated water they draw off. There have been attempts in the past to speed up the process but none of them were highly successful so for the last while they have been just producing it at the natural; breakdown rate for the hydrates that they induce by extracting the water under them.

LINKY

Messoyakha was brought into production in 1970 and was brought off production by 1978. Production was resumed at a significantly lower rate than the initial rates in 1980 and continues to this day. During the initial production rate the pressure drop in the reservoir does not decrease as rapidly as expected and increases by 2MPa when shut-in between 1978-80.

Petroleum engineers and geologists point to the subsequent production from 1980 and the increase in pressure as evidence of the gas hydrates producing into the Messoyakha reservoir formation.

The Messoyakha reservoir is located underneath the gas hydrate where it is believed that the depressurization of the reservoir due to conventional gas production led to the depressurization and dissociation of gas from the hydrates.

[Blacksmith]

Well I am a geologist, a registered professional geologist, and all this nonsence about mining Clathrate hydrates comes from government geologists who at best are academics with no or little commercial experience.

[copious.abundance]

This should answer many questions about those North Slope methane hydrates:
http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=75013

[copious.abundance]

On the other hand common sense and the advice of a practicing geologist (see above. no OF2, right there over your post ) suggests that this flaky powdery material that coats rock surfaces and evaporates at surface pressure will not be used soon.

But they do have practicing geologists working on this thing:

The agency has enlisted two producing companies, BP and ConocoPhillips, to try out two separate production ideas.

You don't think BP and ConocoPhillips have sent a bunch of actuaries and candlestick-makers to work on this project, now do you.

[copious.abundance]

BTW, not only does it look like they've got practicing geologists working on this. it looks like they've already extracted some of it:

BP's hydrate test project has been underway since 2002 in collaboration with the DOE. The goal is a long-term hydrate production test. The company drilled a well in the Milne Point field in 2007 to confirm results of its seismic profiling and to extract cores, or samples of rock containing methane hydrates. The project was successful on both counts: Drilling showed the hydrate was right where it was supposed to be, Pospisil said, and 100 feet of hydrate core was extracted. The test also showed the reservoir rock to contain higher saturation of hydrate than expected.

In a second phase of the project, BP will drill a second well and conduct a long-term production test that could last between three and 18 months, Pospifil said. Locations for the well are still being considered. It could be in the Milne Point, Kuparuk River fields or the western part of the Prudhoe Bay field, he said.

Just sayin'

[shortonsense]

Well I am a geologist, a registered professional geologist, and all this nonsence about mining Clathrate hydrates comes from government geologists who at best are academics with no or little commercial experience.

So...it is your recommendation that the Russians should STOP, because their practical experience has led them to do such a crazy thing?

[copious.abundance]

Not your ordinary gas hydrates either.

>>> Reuters <<<

U.S. Gulf gas hydrate find most promising yet -DOE
Thu May 14, 2009 7:23pm EDT

HOUSTON, May 14 (Reuters) - A U.S. research team has found the most promising natural gas hydrate deposits yet under the U.S. Gulf of Mexico, improving chances the ice-like formations will become a major energy source, scientists said on Thursday.

"It's very encouraging. We consider this expedition a major shift in our understanding," said Timothy Collett of the U.S. Geological Survey, a leader of the research effort.

"What's unique about the Gulf of Mexico accumulations identified is this. It's the first time we've seen highly concentrated hydrates in conventional sand reservoirs that could be commercially producible," Collett said.

[...]

[AirlinePilot]

Hee hee, too easy...

"Most promising"

"improving the chances"

"very encouraging"

"could be commercially producible."

Once again you've published a story based on nothing more than wishing and hoping. Its a science project, and will be for a very long time.

[eastbay]

AP you are wrong. Methane hydrates are much better than dilithium crystals.

It's kinda like cold fusion.... it's only 20 years away. I know this is true because ever since the 60's we've read it's only 20 years away. Commercial methane hydrate production is also only 20 years away too! Very happy news.

[copious.abundance]

"PO. Peak Optimism. When installed, natural gas is more than sufficient to maintain installed natural gas. Plus some oil, hydropower, solar, wind, coal and nuclear thrown in for good measure."

[copious.abundance]

Hee hee, too easy...

"Most promising"

"improving the chances"

"very encouraging"

"could be commercially producible."

Once again you've published a story based on nothing more than wishing and hoping. Its a science project, and will be for a very long time.

You continually repeat this accusation, and by doing so you continually make a hypocrite of yourself.

Oil production "could have" peaked in 2005. Or 2008.

Natural gas production "might be" peaking in 10 or 20 years.

You are wishing and hoping these things will peak, because you don't like them.

EROEI and "available energy" are mere academic "science projects."

And so on and so forth, ad nauseum.