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Methane Hydrate Fuel (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 25 Jan 2016, 17:26:50

onlooker wrote:I have never read much on this but if your description P, is only mildly correct it seems it is evidently not worth the effort to access it.


One of those things that appear to be so true today. And yet, as with everything from deep oil, to offshore oil, to shales and oily dirt and extra heavy and Arctic oil and..one day...hydrates...the human desire to burn stuff appears difficult to stop.
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 25 Jan 2016, 17:29:17

Yes particularly stuff that so effectively powers our Industrial civilization.
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 25 Jan 2016, 17:49:50

AdamB wrote:
onlooker wrote:I have never read much on this but if your description P, is only mildly correct it seems it is evidently not worth the effort to access it.


One of those things that appear to be so true today. And yet, as with everything from deep oil, to offshore oil, to shales and oily dirt and extra heavy and Arctic oil and..one day...hydrates...the human desire to burn stuff appears difficult to stop.

I too desire to look like Brad Pitt and frolic in the murky waters of Florida Bay with Pamela Anderson. But yeah . . . surely those dreams will never come be mine :cry:
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 25 Jan 2016, 19:03:43

onlooker wrote:Yes particularly stuff that so effectively powers our Industrial civilization.


It just seems to intuitive, doesn't it? There is this methane, wonderful stuff, that if we don't gather up, generate some power with it, and release it as CO2, Mother Nature would otherwise just...waste? Put it into the atmosphere as methane, give it a few years, and it will become CO2 without so much as a single home heated, iPhone powered or EV fueled...talk about a waste. People won't stand for that so sure...one way or another....we'll go after that fuel sometime, even if it isn't economic today.
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Mon 25 Jan 2016, 19:39:24

pstarr wrote:I too desire to look like Brad Pitt and frolic in the murky waters of Florida Bay with Pamela Anderson. But yeah . . . surely those dreams will never come be mine :cry:


A great many feats of technology have been achieved over the years due to a lot of dedicated effort to get from point A to B. If people approached problems with your defeatist attitude, they never would have been achieved. But the fact they did, often in the face of luddite naysayers, indicates that you can never just stand up and say "Alright, progress is over!" It's not over yet. Not until the zombie horde is dragging us back down in the Olduvai gorge, and we're not there yet.

I am not saying we're going to have warp drive and flying cars, but there will be SOME surprises in store for the future. There's really no way to predict what they will be or how it could change the dynamic for fossil fuels, renewables, or whatever.

Your continued implication that we have reached the proverbial end of history and it's only downhill from here is jumping the gun. From my vantage point it is supremely obvious that you are jumping the gun on calling doom, and only in a safe zone like this can you find anyone else to rally to your defense on a near-term civilization crash.
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby WildRose » Mon 25 Jan 2016, 23:14:55

Can just imagine it -- industry coming to a national park near you to capture methane -- oh joy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... e-gas.html
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 26 Jan 2016, 01:40:29

ennui, you started this idiotic thread for no reason other than to poke a stick in my eye over an imagined hurt in the deep sea thread. You started this thread after refusing your due diligence and searching out early threads on the same subject. Turns out we knew since 2005 that hydrates are more idiotic than even I imagined. And all you can do is throw another ennui-tantrum? I have no idea why you are indulged. Family connections? Special student?
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 26 Jan 2016, 09:32:07

pstarr wrote:ennui, you started this idiotic thread for no reason other than...


Wrong. I started it because there deserves to be a thread on it and it should not pollute Monte's thread.

pstarr wrote:Turns out we knew since 2005


Kind of like all the predictions that shale or tar sands wouldn't be a thing? The past analysis here is not indicative of future performance.

Your insistence on shutting down discussions on the basis of the case supposedly being closed is annoying in the extreme. This is a valid topic and it deserves to be here.
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 26 Jan 2016, 11:21:33

I didn't pollute Monte's thread, I merely questioned your assertion that:
If oil gets expensive enough, ultra-deep-water, methane hydrates, CTL, it will ALL be brought into action. It's only a matter of time.
It was clear a decade ago that methane hydrates would never be produced because the technology for underseas mining did not exist and the cost necessary to procure the methane hydrate would be unacceptable to a society dependent on inexpensive petroleum. If you had bothered to do a little research to understand the thermodynamic predicament that calthrates illustrates you would understand this.
Last edited by pstarr on Tue 26 Jan 2016, 11:33:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 26 Jan 2016, 11:33:07

pstarr wrote:I can't stand your style ennui.


Rest assured, the feeling is mutual.

pstarr wrote:it was clear a decade ago that methane hydrates would never be produced


What does "it was clear" mean? Clear to whom? PO.COM posters? I'm talking about what industry is doing. They're fiddling around with hydrates now, even with low oil prices. It's not case-closed yet by any stretch of the imagination. You can keep stomping your heels and claiming it is, but it isn't. Now corn ethanol, that is more of a clear case of a fad that ran its course and has little legs anymore outside of the corn lobby. Hydrates are still relatively uncharted territory.

pstarr wrote:You know the drill: when the oil-production cost basement (the crude oil price at the terminal necessary to support continuing oil-field production/maintenance) rises to match the refinery-price ceiling (the amount the consumer is willing/able to pay plus the cost of refining and shipping the gas/diesel to pump ) then all production including underseas fizzy candy comes to a halt.


There are still a lot of unknown variables in this narrative.
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 26 Jan 2016, 11:36:23

ennui2 wrote:
pstarr wrote:I can't stand your style ennui.


Rest assured, the feeling is mutual.

pstarr wrote:it was clear a decade ago that methane hydrates would never be produced


What does "it was clear" mean? Clear to whom? PO.COM posters? I'm talking about what industry is doing. They're fiddling around with hydrates now, even with low oil prices. It's not case-closed yet by any stretch of the imagination. You can keep stomping your heels and claiming it is, but it isn't. Now corn ethanol, that is more of a clear case of a fad that ran its course and has little legs anymore outside of the corn lobby. Hydrates are still relatively uncharted territory.

You posted before I had a chance to edit. Read above. Calthrates are a dispersed sand that becomes depressurized as it surfaces. If it is mined underseas as an ore, it will disappear before it reaches the surface. There is no way to bring it up.

pstarr wrote:You know the drill: when the oil-production cost basement (the crude oil price at the terminal necessary to support continuing oil-field production/maintenance) rises to match the refinery-price ceiling (the amount the consumer is willing/able to pay plus the cost of refining and shipping the gas/diesel to pump ) then all production including underseas fizzy candy comes to a halt.


ennui2 wrote:There are still a lot of unknown variables in this narrative.

See above. The predicament is known.
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

“Bitterness is like cancer. It eats upon the host. But anger is like fire. It burns it all clean.”
― Maya Angelou
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 26 Jan 2016, 11:52:25

pstarr wrote: There is no way to bring it up.


Famous last words.

pstarr wrote:See above. The predicament is known.


There are a lot of unknown variables in that narrative. How many times are we going to restate the same position again and again. Stop presenting it as case-closed. The future hasn't happened yet and it will prove one side right and the other wrong.

This thread exists so we can track things over time, and there WILL be interesting developments. Rest assured.
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 26 Jan 2016, 12:06:14

There are no unknown variables. The science of calthrate phase-change is clear. I (see note below) will restate that position again and again until you stop whining and complaining.

* note: ennui, please do no use the editorial 'we' ever again. It annoys me. You are not a headline writer for the New York Time or Salon.com. I am not to be conflated with you.
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 26 Jan 2016, 12:20:53

pstarr wrote:There are no unknown variables.


Didn't you say you don't make predictions? That's a prediction.

Be prepared to eat your words later.
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 26 Jan 2016, 12:30:23

Make me eat them now. I can't wait ennui.
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 26 Jan 2016, 12:58:51

pstarr wrote:Make me eat them now. I can't wait ennui.


No, because the future hasn't happened yet. Please do whatever it takes to rewire you brain to realize this otherwise there's no sense having this discussion.
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 26 Jan 2016, 13:37:39

My brain's wiring is of no concern of yours.

But let me perfectly clear for others who don't feel compelled to steer this conversation into uncharted waters (heh heh): the very property of methane hydrates that renders it so dangerous in a global-warming scenerio makes it impossible to mine.

Thus the phase-state change in a warming ocean or at lower atmospheric pressures near the ocean surface makes it impossible for hydrates to be brought to the surface intact. Ocean waters are both warmer and less dense as we rise in the water column.
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 26 Jan 2016, 15:38:51

pstarr wrote:Ocean waters are both warmer and less dense as we rise in the water column.


Methane from hydrates is already seeping up from the ocean floor. If the gas rises, it can be captured.
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 26 Jan 2016, 15:42:21

ennui2 wrote:
pstarr wrote:Ocean waters are both warmer and less dense as we rise in the water column.


Methane from hydrates is already seeping up from the ocean floor. If the gas rises, it can be captured.

Do you propose a big inverted jello mold over the entire ocean" Hydrates are loosely dispersed under the ocean floor. Are you fecking stupid? Are you going to flag me again?
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Re: THE Methane Hydrate Recovery Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 26 Jan 2016, 15:51:08

pstarr wrote:Do you propose a big inverted jello mold over the entire ocean"


It's not my responsibility to make a proposal because I'm not a FF engineer. I also don't think it's necessary to capture every atom of methane from hydrates. It's only necessary to capture enough of it to get a positive ROI, either by catching some of it that is naturally seeping, or plucking some of it from the seabed, or some combination of the two. When you look at some of the extreme techniques currently used to extract FF, like mountaintop removal or mining tar-sands with huge trucks, I don't see how outlandish it is for companies to attempt methane hydrates. Fast-forward into a resource starved world and you can be darned sure a lot more effort will be spent on it than currently.
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