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Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 08:22:33

dohboi wrote:If Everyone Ate Beans Instead of Beef

With one dietary change, the U.S. could almost meet greenhouse-gas emission goals.


“I think there’s genuinely a lack of awareness about how much impact this sort of change can have,” Harwatt told me. There have been analyses in the past about the environmental impacts of veganism and vegetariansim, but this study is novel for the idea that a person’s dedication to the cause doesn’t have to be complete in order to matter. A relatively small, single-food substitution could be the most powerful change a person makes in terms of their lifetime environmental impact—more so than downsizing one’s car, or being vigilant about turning off light bulbs, and certainly more than quitting showering.


To understand why the climate impact of beef alone is so large, note that the image at the top of this story is a sea of soybeans in a silo in the Brazilian Amazon rainforest. The beans belong to a feed lot that holds 38,000 cattle, the growth and fattening of which means dispensing 900 metric tons of feed every day. Which is to say that these beans will be eaten by cows, and the cows will convert the beans to meat, and the humans will eat the meat. In the process, the cows will emit much greenhouse gas, and they will consume far more calories in beans than they will yield in meat, meaning far more clearcutting of forests to farm cattle feed than would be necessary if the beans above were simply eaten by people....

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... ef/535536/


Pure propaganda level BS. Feedlot cattle are typically fed a mix of soybeans and maize, which causes their digestive systems to produce large quantities of bio-methane. Feeding them alfalfa or better yet mixed plant forage eliminates the methane issue from cattle. Switching the beans from the cattle to the humans just means the bio-methane would be coming from the human gut instead of the cattle gut, doing zero to solve the problem. Feeding humans a well balanced omnivore diet like our digestive system works best with and feeding cattle a leafy green diet like their digestive system works best on is the solution to this man made feedlot based problem.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby farmlad » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 08:26:51

The greenhouse gasses that no ones talking about, climate Science 101. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4ygsdHJjdI
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby efarmer » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 09:23:16

The Chinese used the soy bean in agriculture to fix nitrogen in soil for other food crops
and after a long period,ate the root and greens, and then began fermenting them to make digestible products for human consumption, like soy sauce, miso, tofu, that made them a protein source without the
various downsides if the beans are directly consumed. Not sure if this fermentation
produces equivalent greenhouse gas as compare to putting beans in cattle guts, but
the scale of course was vastly smaller than the factory farm feedlot.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 11:15:27

Tanada wrote:Pure propaganda level BS. Feedlot cattle are typically fed a mix of soybeans and maize, which causes their digestive systems to produce large quantities of bio-methane. Feeding them alfalfa or better yet mixed plant forage eliminates the methane issue from cattle. Switching the beans from the cattle to the humans just means the bio-methane would be coming from the human gut instead of the cattle gut, doing zero to solve the problem. Feeding humans a well balanced omnivore diet like our digestive system works best with and feeding cattle a leafy green diet like their digestive system works best on is the solution to this man made feedlot based problem.

Not right Tanada. Methane is a normal consequence of a grass diet in goats, sheep, cattle. It is a produced as a by-product of rumen fermentation in all ruminant animals (also includes giraffes, yaks, deer, antelope). Bacteria in the rumen convert and digest the woody plant materials (grasses etc) into fatty acids and produce carbon dioxide and methane as a result.

Humans don't have this capacity and don't emit methane. We fart, but it is merely swallowed air. Soybeans and maize are fed to the cattle (usually for a short few weeks or month) for the additional lipid, starch and protein content. It fattens the cattle faster and give marbling. I don't believe it causes additional methane. If we allowed bison to repopulate the prairies (as the vegan promotes), the same methane would be emitted.

We are disconnected from the earth. I mushroom hunt in the fall. Just collected wild huckleberries and made a pie. Don't hunt, don't need to, but could.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 11:39:08

Chemical Composition of Farts

The exact chemical composition of human flatulence varies from one person to another, based on his or her biochemistry, the bacteria inhabiting the colon and the foods that were eaten.

If the gas results from ingesting air, the chemical composition will approximate that of air. If the fart arises from digestion or bacterial production, the chemistry may be more exotic. Farts consist primarily of nitrogen, the principal gas in air, along with a significant amount of carbon dioxide. A typical breakdown of the chemical composition of farts is:

Nitrogen: 20-90%
Hydrogen: 0-50% (flammable)
Carbon dioxide: 10-30%
Oxygen: 0-10%
Methane: 0-10% (flammable)
Lighting Farts on Fire - The Blue Flame

Human flatus may contain hydrogen gas and/or methane, which are flammable. If sufficient amounts of these gases are present, it's possible to light the fart on fire. Keep in mind, not all farts are flammable. Although flatus has great YouTube fame for producing a blue flame, it turns out only about half of people have the archaea (bacteria) in their bodies that are necessary to produce methane.

If you don't make methane, you may still be able to ignite your farts (a dangerous practice!), but the flame will be yellow or possibly orange rather than blue.

https://www.thoughtco.com/chemical-comp ... rts-608409

Perhaps your personal gut lacks the appropriate bacteria for methane production but there are at least 3.5 Billion humans who do, presuming the 50/50 split is accurate.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 12:03:33

Our flatus is incidental to this discussion. The essential point is that methane is a by product of all ruminent digestion, not a consequence of feedlot diets. My real concern is the obvious misconceptions of the vegetarian.

--the grasslands would be inhabited by bison, antelope (if not cattle) and would thus emit the same methane.
--time in the feedlot is short, and the methane is less . . . as starch/lipid digestion does not emit methane. The issue with feedlots is fecal runoff and pollution of waterways.
--dairy cattle spend far more time in feedlots than meat cattle.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 14:13:03

T wrote:

"Feeding them alfalfa or better yet mixed plant forage eliminates the methane issue from cattle"

Maybe, but that is not what is actually happening by and large. So since we aren't in that fantasy world at this time, in this actual world, every person who decides to not eat such beef (or a lot less of it) is doing a lot to reduce their CC footprint.

Your argument is like saying, hey, they can now make airplanes that run on electricity and that electricity could in theory all come from wind, so flying really isn't a problem.

I'm sure you would not accept such an argument from others. That you came up with just as bad a one suggests just how far very intelligent people will go to use use their considerable brain power to rationalize their own behaviors.

Thanks for the stunning demonstration of this important principle! :-D :-D
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 14:17:46

T wrote:

"Feeding them alfalfa or better yet mixed plant forage eliminates the methane issue from cattle"

Maybe,

How do either one of you hope to have an intelligent discussion, or even possibly entertain the idea of actually learning anything if you are not willing to do a bit of due diligence?

And folks ask why I have a crappy attitude? Jesus wept :-x
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 16:55:52

Oh, and thanks to all responders for keeping this important thread bumped up to the top of the non-stickies! :-D :-D
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 17:17:52

One important point to add that maybe has been discussed and is quite relevant to this thread. This just came up today at Totumas as I was guiding 4 guests.

Natural grasslands in prairies and savannas and above tree line in mountain areas represent the natural original habitat of ruminants. Keeping this habitat available for cattle makes sense.

Now every time you convert a tropical forest to a grassland this is an artificial habitat. You can maintain the grassland only with heavy use of herbicides and human labor because pioneer species are constantly trying to return this habitat to forest. So all of the Amazon basin and all of the tropical areas of the world where cattle land has replaced forests represent a double negative. First the methane production of the cattle and the loss of sequestration of CO2 from the lost forest.

The best solution really would be to return all "artificial" grasslands to forest, establish meat production in existing natural grassland areas, maintain conservation areas for native species, and then calculate how much meat production you can get from these areas.

IF a steak costs $ 45 dollars a pound due to the supply and demans problem of this scenario then so be it.

Meal worms. crickets, squid and chicken are far cheaper.\


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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 17:30:31

Thanks for the insights, Ibon

I should point out, thought, that as I understand it, a good portion of what most would have considered the 'natural grassland range' at the time Europeans came across it of the (especially eastern) Great Plains was actually maintained by mostly intentional fires set by various Native Americans.

https://www.nps.gov/tapr/learn/nature/fire-regime.htm

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tallgrass ... ns_Map.svg

So your designations may not always be as clear cut as a cursory look would suggest. :)

I 'unnaturally' maintain the micro native grassland in my front and back yard by artificially burning it down on occasion!! :-D :-D
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 17:40:54

dohboi wrote:Oh, and thanks to all responders for keeping this important thread bumped up to the top of the non-stickies! :-D :-D

We aim to please. It's in our carnivore blood :)

Ibon, here in the Pacific Northwest native American practiced controlled burning for food production. Indian Use of Fire in Early Oregon

Early historical records—from botanist David Douglas in 1826, for example, and Henry Eld and George Emmons of the 1841 U.S. Exploring Expedition—are important sources that document Indians using fire in the Willamette Valley. As Douglas observed while traveling south of present-day Salem on September 30, 1826, "Most parts of the country burned; only on little patches in the valleys and on the flats near the low hills that verdure is to be seen. Some of the natives tell me it is done for the purpose of urging the deer to frequent certain parts, to feed, which they leave unburned and of course they are easily killed. Others say that it is done in order that they might better find wild honey and grasshoppers, which both serve as articles of winter food."

Grasshoppers and other insect foods are coming back. The very mainstream US TV show 'Shark Tank' (where entrepreneurs come for funding) hosted a guy who has developed a cricket flour, highly nutritional, full of protein.
https://chapul.com/blogs/chapul-bars-la ... shark-tank
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby farmlad » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 18:06:33

I feed my chickens Certified Organic fish meal http://www.fertrell.com/fishmealwnaturox.htm $70 for 50 lbs. This is dried ground and preserved with tocopherols- 60% PROTEIN From ocean caught fish without market for human consumption-I imagine its the GUTS SCALES HEADS AND ALL. And it doesnt taste all that bad So don't let someone tell you that eating healthy proteins costs to much.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby farmlad » Mon 07 Aug 2017, 18:21:06

I grew up on a farm where we cleared sub tropical rain forest and this was in a fairly humid year round environment. We had almost no regrowth to deal with on farmed or on pastured land. I've wondered often how long it would take till those jungles would grow back if ever. I was amazed at how trees grow up in ditch banks and grassy areas when we moved to southern Michigan.

Seems that our agricultural practices in this humid and hot environment so thoroughly decimated the biological environment that these trees depend on. We have replanted some acres back to native trees but they really have a hard time with diseases etc, especially compared to the amazing growth of the eucalyptus stands.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 08 Aug 2017, 07:48:38

Thanks for the insights, fl.

It is my understanding that, while in most temperate climates, most of the nutrients are in the soil; in the tropics, most of the time, most of the nutrients are in the trees themselves (and of course in the bugs and animals that inhabit them). So when you take away the trees, there is often little left for the jungle to regenerate from.

That said, there is growing evidence, as I understand, that vast parts of the Amazon had been deforested by native inhabitants before the arrival of Europeans. The diseases they brought decimated the population, allowing the jungle to grow back.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 08 Aug 2017, 08:07:53

Ah, but then I find this, so...who knows? :

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2012/06/ ... an-contact

...a new study, published online today in Science, suggests that large ancient populations never cleared and tamed the western Amazon.

By analyzing soil samples from 55 locations in central and western Amazonia, a team of American and Brazilian researchers led by paleoecologist Crystal McMichael, who is now at the of the University of New Hampshire in Durham,have found that pre-Columbian bands ranged in small numbers over the region and gathered food without slashing, burning, or cultivating large tracts of the Amazon.

"Most of the forest we sampled has never been intensively disturbed," McMichael says.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Cog » Tue 08 Aug 2017, 13:09:14

I had a spinach salad with spinach imported from Mexico. I hope that helps. ;)
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby jupiters_release » Wed 09 Aug 2017, 12:18:50

dohboi wrote:That said, there is growing evidence, as I understand, that vast parts of the Amazon had been deforested by native inhabitants before the arrival of Europeans. The diseases they brought decimated the population, allowing the jungle to grow back.


Fake history, similar to most history taught.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 09 Aug 2017, 12:42:30

Which part did you think was 'fake history'?

And are you just making claims, or do you have links, at least, to back it up.

(Note that I am truly interested--I searched and found a study contradicting part of the claim i had just made, and I posted it. So don't have any particular 'skin in this game'...just interested in getting at well supported evidence.)
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby MD » Wed 09 Aug 2017, 13:23:46

I'm hungry for grass fed beef.
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.

Just think it through.
It's not hard to do.
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