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Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 20:29:53

onlooker wrote:I thank each of you for your input. We are debating a predicament that has no "real" solution except the one noted by Ibon. But, the wiggle room is tied to the speed of the "solution". I am afraid I have to side with Ibon. But that is NOT siding with Kaiser. What keeps so many people alive is "Modern industrial civilization" What is the source of CO2 emissions ? Modern industrial practices. It comes down to the quote that haunts me . "We can have modern industrial civilization or a living Earth but not both" The longer modern industrial civilization exists, the less bountiful, and hospitable Earth will be to higher life forms like us.


I think you missed the essence of my earlier comments. It would not matter whether we were an Agrarian rural society, or enjoyed all the comforts, conveniences, and benefits of "modern industrial civilization", as long as we had a sustainable population. That would be the number we blew past in 1800.

Althogh technology enables the existence of 8 billion humans, it did not cause such. Our ape natures and the desire to be surrounded by a troup of apes that smell like relatives and extended family, that caused the overshoot.

If we cannot fix the overshoot we are doomed. But we are also doomed if we abandon technology, because we need the efficiencies it provides. Else the smaller population causes greater damages.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 20:30:42

Onlooker,

Consider this question, is misery cumulative?

If misery is cumulative then it makes sense to hasten the end. 10 billion suffering is worse than 7.5 billion suffering.

However if misery is only experienced as an individual then it is not cumulative and it does not matter how many folks die in misery for misery exists only to the individual experiencing it.

It’s kind of a weird question and way of parsing it out. But I do think there is some real value to the question.

I believe most folks would SAY misery is cumulative. Yet most folks ACT as if it is not. Just some of my personal ruminations.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 20:54:54

KaiserJeep wrote:I simply cringe at where these discussions lead sometimes.

I simply cannot prescribe genocide as a solution, even if I mealy-mouth the word and call it a "correction". The only difference between a genocide and a correction is the minor matter of deliberate intent, and that distinction is often invisibly thin, impossible to distinguish once the deaths have occurred. The US Government once distributed Smallpox infected blankets through it's Indian Agents, by some accounts, to rid themselves of too many Indians.


KJ, I appreciate very much your post. And the humanity and honesty you address around this thin thin line. I have also thought about this. Remember, my family and friends, where I live, where I have worked for 40 years, has been in developing countries. This spans The Philippines, Panama, Thailand, all of Latin America.

One of the reasons I started way back that thread about Worshiping the Overshoot Predator was really about recognizing these consequences as the solutions. But it goes further than that. As you so well note, there are too many with 8 billion to bring them all through the cycle of reduced fertility through raising their standard of living and consumption to even a fifth of western standards. There are not enough resources to do this.

In a perfect scenario moving forward nature comes up to bat soon with pandemics and climate disruptions severe enough that humans response is noble as we pull together to make sacrifices. No ugly small pox blankets necessary. No mealy mouth cowardice and rationalizations required. We recognize the imbalances for what they are.

Delaying natural consequences and extending the overshoot for longer periods gives rise to a greater likely hood of the ugly small pox blanket scenario. We have had many genocides in the past 300 years of the industrial revolution. Today we have tens of millions of immigrants and hundreds of millions more wanting to immigrate out of desperate situations coinciding with this global pendulum swinging toward an increase in tribal nationalism. We can all recognize this dynamic unfolding in real time today even though it has not matured to any overt ugly extreme as in the small pox blanket example.

We really could use some destabilizing events, of external human agency, to pull us together. Otherwise this trend line splitting along tribal alliances increases the probability to head us in some real ugly directions using human agency.

That is just another reason to worship the Overshoot Predator.....

Frankly, as an amateur ecologist I find it remarkable that our species has remained so resilient so deep into overshoot. That this juggernaut continues mostly to feed itself day in and day out, that no pandemics have occurred even though billions live in squalor, that we have disrupted so many natural ecosystems and have spewed so much filth into the air and seas and nothing yet has even made the smallest dent in our trajectory. Truly remarkable.
Last edited by Ibon on Mon 04 Jun 2018, 21:21:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 20:58:56

But, the point Kaiser is we have 8 billion now that only can be sustained with FF. The same which are dangerously warming the Earth. Your position seems almost contradictory. You postulate that overpopulation is the main manner of our overshoot yet do not wish to remive the lifeline. You explained your moral vexation leads you to this position which is commendable. But the only thing is no matter what collectively we cannot avoid our participation in this saga and so even no decision is a decision. I prefer the lesser evil. Retain as much of a viable living planet as possible for the sake of posterity and the life that will live in that future. And Newf, misery is subjective as is compassion. But, I think you can weigh numbers. So, the potential future of our species for however long that will be and for however many humans it will involve against all those alive now and in the nesr future
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 21:38:50

"We can have modern industrial civilization or a living Earth but not both"


Common sense. There is no such thing as a sustainable population with modern civilization.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 01:58:39

What I was trying to say is that in every case, humans multiply to fill the available space and consume the available resources. The oil and the technology for extracting it might stretch the supply until the global numbers are 10 billion, or 20 billion.

That's the nature of primate reproduction. Once the First World enters a period of hardship, it will trip the ape's instinctive need to reproduce as much as possible. In the time of shortages, the population will surge.

This is our Doom, and the oil depleting or the climate changing is just a detail. If we manage to transform into a sustainable, low energy civilization, we will still be reproducing like bunnies, and there will be war.

Fixing that problem is hard. Just dying back will come naturally, but humans don't have any instinctive urge to manage their numbers.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 06:25:16

And Newf, misery is subjective as is compassion. But, I think you can weigh numbers. So, the potential future of our species for however long that will be and for however many humans it will involve against all those alive now and in the nesr future


I understand that position, I think. I’m not saying it’s wrong. I’m just saying that it’s the intellectual position once considered. It is NOT the way we behave.

But this house to the discussion with KJ although Cog has made similar arguments.

We know we have an over population problem, the technical answer is to reduce population to a sustainable level by whatever means necessary. But that is not a solution within our ability. We have the technical ability but not the emotional ability.

It really doesn’t matter what we think we would do with God like powers, we don’t have them. Within the powers we do have a technical solution is not feasible. That’s where the discussion of misery comes in. Technically we should work to alleviate misery, emotionally we work to maximize it.

I don’t like it, it’s just the way I see it. And this is an extreamely tough discussion for anyone.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 08:23:07

Correct. This is the stuff of nightmares, and I have had these thoughts for years. Yet the greatest joy in my life is my grandkids, and I'm sharing them with another pair of grandparents. We are just hardwired by evolution to feel this way.

The nature of the population conundrum is exacerbated by some quite extreme behaviors. For example, Catholic Popes are often praised for their humanitarian writings and deeds. Yet they forbid birth controls, and they are not the only religion to do so, here in Silly Valley, the Mormons pretty much all have big families. As does every Muslim family in my HOA (3 families out of 38). My troubling conclusion: we secular folks will have to solve this in spite of our spiritual guidance.

As for eating meat, that's another problem. I can intellectually agree with dohboi, at least with regard to a less extreme form of diet - perhaps Vegetarian vs. Vegan. But my taste for red meat and sea food and poultry remains, there just is nothing that tastes better than roast turkey and all the trimmings.

Perhaps the biggest problem we must overcome is the sheer chutzpah of thinking that our intellects rule our primate instincts.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 08:32:03

Newfie wrote:
It really doesn’t matter what we think we would do with God like powers, we don’t have them. Within the powers we do have a technical solution is not feasible. That’s where the discussion of misery comes in. Technically we should work to alleviate misery, emotionally we work to maximize it.

I don’t like it, it’s just the way I see it. And this is an extreamely tough discussion for anyone.


KaiserJeep wrote:.

That's the nature of primate reproduction. Once the First World enters a period of hardship, it will trip the ape's instinctive need to reproduce as much as possible. In the time of shortages, the population will surge.

This is our Doom, and the oil depleting or the climate changing is just a detail. If we manage to transform into a sustainable, low energy civilization, we will still be reproducing like bunnies, and there will be war.

Fixing that problem is hard. Just dying back will come naturally, but humans don't have any instinctive urge to manage their numbers.


Newfie, we do play God but selectively. In the way we have mastered and harnessed the planets resources and have used technology this is godlike and would appear so to any of our ancestors. We are not God though in the most important aspect of self regulation and in this sense to date as KJ notes the human primate is no better than yeast in a petri dish in the way we have treated any resource in our past whether Mastodons in the Pleistocene or fossil fuels during the current human overshoot.

BUT there are untold chapters coming up that will be determinate and we are perhaps too hasty here in the verdict that our species is incapable of self regulation.

KJ states we have no instinctive urge to manage our numbers. This is correct for the obvious reason that in the evolution of our species this has never been selected for. The opposite actually is the case, from the moment we left arboreal habitat and became bipedal evolution selected for increased cerebral cortex and an opposing thumb and from that point we became the planet's great Tinkerer, mastering almost every habitat on the planet until we dumped those habitats in exchange for creating our own, one large global human habitat ravaging natural ecosystems in the process to the point of systemic imbalances now threatening our existence.

So the ability to self regulate is not in our genes, not in our emotional matrix as Newfie mentioned, so this leaves the possibility of self regulation fully and clearly under the domain of culture. To what degree is culture malleable toward self regulation? This should be the focus now of this conversation if any of us are at all interested in dedicating themselves toward saving our species sorry ass from the dust bin of extinction.

As I see it the very foundation that represents any culture stand on three main pillars; Religion, economy and politics (government). These are the three tools we have to work with. If these are not set for self regulation no technology will save us nor will giving up eating meat for reasons KJ stated above on this thread.

All existing religions "evolved" during times when humans where held way below carrying capacity because of disease and famine which dominated societies at the birth of almost all our current religious beliefs. As I mentioned in past in other posts for this reason we do not have the 11th commandment that thou shall not breed beyond the carrying capacity of your environment.

The dominant economic system, capitalism, has proven extremely robust in the ascent leading us to overshoot as we extracted resources at phenomenal rates as corporations expanded their power and individuals maximized their consumption.

Democracy focusing on individual liberty has become the dominant political orientation that has given the individual unprecedented freedoms to consume and to breed.

In God we trust is stamped on the back of a coin and so let's not kid ourselves that religion, economics and politics are tightly woven in what defines today's cultural matrix.

On another thread Cog in Don Quixote fashion stated quite clearly that he would rather our species perish than submit to any organizational self regulation that would threaten personal liberty. In his world view his religious beliefs, political orientation and his stock portfolio have merged seamlessly. Again, politics, economy and religion.
This world view has been adaptive during the ascent leading us to human overshoot. On the descent and moving through consequences there will be major forces, and I mean major forces that will redefine how our economy functions, how we govern ourselves and how we see our place in the universe (religion).

In another thread Newfie wrote
Newfie wrote:Cog,
Wealth, true wealth, is not about money but richness of life.


When that richness of life becomes threatened due to the consequences of human overshoot then culture becomes malleable to adapt to these changes. I will give one example and then leave it at that for now. More fundamental than the freedom to go out and buy a jet ski is the very stability of our environment to provide a stable climate, abundant food, move about free of disease. These have all been givens up to today. In fact, like oxygen, we don’t even recognize its presence until it is undermined. A healthy stable environment has been assumed and has been invisible to date. At the moment that consequences deeply threaten this stability our culture’s priorities will shift. And therein lies the possibility that individuals, exercising their personal choices, will willfully submit to limits that heal guided by politics and economic limits. Those limits will initially be set by external human agency in the form of the consequences of human overshoot but then, as a result of their destabilizing nature, will call forth human agency in the culture adapting.

I rather think that modern humans are pretty hooked on the technologies we have developed and will want these preserved to the point to willfully submit to limits.

In fact, ironically, we can see this in action in a weird way in our younger generation emerging with their digital devices. Nothing has tamed modern humans more than being tethered to digital technology. It has taken all the steam out of rebellion and revolution and questioning authority or the dominant cultural paradigm. We do not see any real opposition with any effective rebellion against the state because the young generations rather like the stability the state provides for them to stay tethered digitally to their devices. This already demonstrates a passive acceptance in the collective. Sprinkle some serious extra human agency of disruption and who knows how pliable we will be. Cog might turn over in his grave over his grand daughters bowing to the dictates of the state but these will be other times.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 08:57:32

The authors of the PNAS article estimate that the mass of wild land mammals is seven times lower than it was before humans arrived (keep in mind it’s difficult to estimate the exact history of the number of animals on Earth). Similarly, marine mammals, including whales, are a fifth of the weight they used to be because we’ve hunted so many to near extinction.

And though plants are still the dominant form of life on Earth, the scientists suspect there used to be approximately twice as many of them — before humanity started clearing forests to make way for agriculture and our civilization.


https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/ ... imals-pnas
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 11:24:51

It would seem to be appropriate to trot out this chart again:
Image
....reminding everyone of the land animal percentages by weight:
Image

Then, just to make sure that you don't feel like you are king of the world, when you count individual organisms, humans and their domestic animals don't even break into the top 8 species that dominate our planet:

https://io9.gizmodo.com/5939568/the-eight-super-adaptable-life-forms-that-rule-our-planet
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 15:39:33

Thanks for the discussion in general. And to Ibon for the image of Cog as Quixote...that one will stick with me! :)

And to those handy graphs, KJ. And yes, in spite of our obsession with putting antibiotics in our soaps and in our livestock, there are still lots of bacteria out there...we are basically in the process of handing the planet back to them...complex organisms have, after all, only been on the planet for a half billion years or so, microbes, much longer.

I would like to address one unsupported and apparently unquestioned assumption that seems to be rumbling around behind some of the comments here (and please correct me if this is not anyone's assumption):

Last time I looked, most of the countries with the lowest rates of reproduction were also the among least food insecure, while most of the countries with the highest rates of reproduction were also among the most food insecure.

https://www.fastcompany.com/3031180/the ... d-security

https://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=24

(Six of the nine countries listed as the most food insecure in the first link are among the top 20 for rate of population growth in the second, the other three are in the top 90 for pop. rate growth; None of the top ten countries for food security is in the top 90 for population growth rate; Ireland's the closest, and that will probably change now that abortions have just become legal, finally)

This fact does not seem to jibe well with the perception by some here (again, correct me if I am mistaken to think that some think this) that increased availability of food always (or nearly always) leads to increased population growth rates.

Indeed, the actual data very strongly suggests the exact opposite.

Thanks :)
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 15:54:26

dohboi wrote:More reasons to avoid meat:

[b]Antibiotic apocalypse

...
The UK’s chief medical officer, Dame Sally Davies, has warned that failing to act could lead to a post-antibiotic apocalypse, spelling “the end of modern medicine” as routine infections defy effective treatment.

Some studies predict that antimicrobial resistance could cost $100tn (£75tn) between now and 2050, with the annual death toll reaching 10 million over that period.


Human evolution and stomach pH

It is interesting to note that humans, uniquely among the primates so far considered, appear to have stomach pH values more akin to those of carrion feeders than to those of most carnivores and omnivores. In the absence of good data on the pH of other hominoids, it is difficult to predict when such an acidic environment evolved. Baboons (Papio spp) have been argued to exhibit the most human–like of feeding and foraging strategies in terms of eclectic omnivory, but their stomachs–while considered generally acidic (pH = 3.7)–do not exhibit the extremely low pH seen in modern humans (pH = 1.5). One explanation for such acidity may be that carrion feeding was more important in humans (and more generally hominin) evolution than currently considered to be the case. Alternatively, in light of the number of fecal-oral pathogens that infect and kill humans, selection may have favored high stomach acidity, independent of diet, because of its role in pathogen prevention.

Carrion Feeder - Any animal that feeds on dead and rotting flesh.

The human stomach and the loss of mutualistic microbes

In general, stomach acidity will tend to filter microbes without adaptations to an acidic environment. Such adaptations include resistant cell walls, spore-forming capabilities or other traits that confer tolerance to high acidities and rapid changes in pH conditions. The study considered the role of the stomach as a pathogen barrier within the context of human evolution. Another potential consequence of high stomach acidity, when considered in light of other primates and mammals, is the difficulty of recolonization by beneficial microbes. A large body of literature now suggests that a variety of human medical problems relate to the loss of mutualistic gut microbes, whether because those mutualists failed to colonize during hyper-clean C-section births or were lost through use of antibiotics, or other circumstances. The pH of the human stomach may make humans uniquely prone to such problems. In turn, it might be expected that, among domesticated animals, that similar problems should be most common in those animals that, like humans, have very acidic stomachs.


I
n light of modern lifestyle changes in diet, hygiene and medical interventions that alter stomach pH, we suggest that stomach acidity in humans is a double-edged sword. On one hand, the high acidity of the human stomach prevents pathogen exposure but it also decreases the likelihood of recolonization by beneficial microbes if and when they go missing


The study also shows the harmful effects of antibiotics and hyper-clean C-section births, among others.


In conclusion you will never be the same again after the antibiotic useage.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 16:07:41

Interesting theory on carrion. I have read something similar, that explains humans upright bipedal structure, our long slow strides and superior endurance. We evolved on the savanna to compete with lions, hyenas, vultures and dogs for game. Much of it stolen.

Perhaps our bare skin evaporates and cools better than a fur covered body?
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 16:23:43

I don't understand why endangered bison, antelope are of more concern than cattle goats and sheep.

If the reverse were true, would we feel the same? Would it be as tragic if man had domesticated the bison, and slaughtered wild native cattle? In that alt-world we'd have cattle biosphere where the rare, wonderful beings would be in full protection of gun-carrying game rangers.

And then my old beef (pun somewhat intended); folks who consider slaughterhouses cruel might want to venture out into nature, and see how a wolf pack slaughters a mommy moose and her baby :( yikes
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 17:05:30

The following information will be comparing the absorption and bioavailability of various nutrients.

Vitamin A

Animal form:
Retinol (100% bioavailability. Retinol is often found in foods that contain fat, which further increases absorption compared to Beta-Carotene

Plant form:
Beta-Carotene (must be converted into Retinol, 16.6% bioavailability if perfectly healthy, various digestive issues and diseases further reduce the conversion to Retinol; children, especially infants, don’t make the conversion at all. 0% bioavailability for infants and children)

Vitamin D

Animal form:
D3 (100% bioavailability. D3 is often found in foods that contain fat, which further increases absorption compared to D2)

Plant form:
D2 (33% bioavailability, studies also shows that vitamin D3 offers a noticeable decrease in overall mortality, significantly surpassing D2 in reducing death rates from all causes)

Vitamin K

Animal form:
K2 (100% bioavailability. Because of the FDA, it can't be listed as Vitamin K in the Nutrition Facts Label per FDA. K2 is often found in foods that contain fat, which further increases absorption compared to K1. Studies show it is better at blood clotting, preventing bone fractures than K1, although more evidence is needed for certainty.)

Plant form:
K1 (10% bioavailability. Vitamin K2’s long side chain allows it to circulate in the blood longer than K1. Where vitamin K1 may stay in the blood for several hours, some forms of K2 can remain in the blood for days. Some researchers believe that the longer circulation time of vitamin K2 allows it to be better used in tissues located throughout the body. Vitamin K1 is primarily transported to and used by the liver.)

Vitamin B6

Animal form:
Pyridoxal, Pyridoxamine and Pyridoxine ( Pyridoxamine, however, has some functions in the body that pyridoxine and pyridoxal do not. Pyridoxamine is a chelating agent. It can interact with and trap heavy metals. One of the causes of aging, especially in the skin, is the formation of "advanced glycation end-products." Any cell in the body can become essentially sugar-coated by interaction with glucose from the bloodstream. In diabetics, of course, the problem is much worse, since there is more sugar in the bloodstream to "caramelize" cells. The sugar on these cells is not a problem until it begins to break down. The advanced glycation end-products release tremendous amounts of free radicals, so many that the cell's energy center, the mitochondria, "burn out" when they use oxygen to make energy. The cell dies, and when enough cells die, tissues and organs don't function as well. This is the underlying chemical process beneath wrinkling, cataracts, atherosclerosis, certain kinds of kidney failure, the complications of diabetes, and possibly Alzheimer's disease (although there are other kinds of cell destruction also involved in Alzheimer's). Stopping the formation of advanced glycation end products, if started soon enough, stops these diseases of aging. That's where pyridoxamine comes in. It stops a kind of chemical reaction known as the Maillard reaction. You may not know the chemistry, but you have definitely seen a Maillard reaction in the real world. This combination of sugars and amino acids is what makes toast brown, or tater tots crunchy when they've been fried, or puts the "burn" on roasted meat or barbecue, or gives maple syrup its brown color. At a cellular level, pyridoxamine keeps your cells from becoming toast.)

Plant form:
Pyridoxine ( It's important to note, that the pyridoxine available in plant sources often has a low bioavailability (the vitamin is bounded to protein, resulting in the inefficient delivery to its site of action in the body). For this reason, it is better to choose food sources of animal origin if you need to increase your vitamin B6 intake.)

Vitamin B12

Animal form:
Found in large amounts in animal foods.

Plant form:
Not found in plant foods.

Iron

Animal form:
Heme Iron (100% Bioavailability)

Plant form:
Non-Heme Iron ( 5.9-57% bioavailability, food high in heme iron and Vitamin C can improve your body's ability to absorb non-heme iron. Phytic acid and tannins in plants reduce absorption.)

Creatine

Animal form:
Most of it is stored in muscles, but significant amounts are also concentrated in the brain. (Improvements in physical performance and improvements in brain function).

Plant form:
Not found in plant foods

Carnosine

Animal form:
Carnosine is an antioxidant that is concentrated in the muscles and brain (It is very important for muscle function, and high levels of carnosine in muscles are linked with reduced muscle fatigue and improved performance)

Plant form:
Not found in plant foods

Taurine

Animal form:
Taurine is a sulfur compound found in various body tissues, the muscles and organs. (Taurine may have various benefits for heart health such as lowering cholesterol and blood pressure). Taurine is only found in animal foods such as fish, seafood, meat, poultry and dairy products.

Plant form:
Not found in plant foods. Small amounts are produced by the body. However, dietary taurine may play a major role in the maintenance of taurine levels in the body. Levels of taurine are significantly lower in vegans than in meat eater.

Cholesterol

Animal form:
Found in all foods, very high in organs, eggs ,fish roe. Highest in brain.

Plant form:
Not found in plant foods.

DHA

Animal form:
Brain and fish roe are the highest source. Other high quality fats , eggs and dairy contain DHA. (It is important for normal brain development and function, deficiency in DHA can have adverse effects on mental health and brain function, especially in children. In addition, inadequate DHA intake in pregnant women may adversely affect brain development in the child. DHA can increase concentration, reduce memory loss and improve your cognitive function. DHA can reduce your risk of dementia and Alzheimer's disease. Those who get more DHA into their diet, are less prone to stress, depression, and anger. A lot of studies have been done for those prone to stress, depression, and angry. Those who got more DHA into their diet have shown improvement.)

Plant form:
Not found in plant foods. In the body, DHA can also be made from the omega-3 fatty acid ALA, which is found in high amounts in flaxseeds, chia seeds and walnuts. However, the conversion of ALA to DHA is very inefficient (3-10% at most. With a diet rich in n-6 PUFA, conversion is reduced by 40 to 50%, so only around 1.5% to 5% at most.) For this reason, vegetarians and vegans often have much lower DHA levels than meat eaters.

Calcium

Animal form:
Found in animal and plant foods. (Highest animal source are bones/bone meal, bone marrow, eggs and dairy second).

Plant form:
Found in animal and plant foods. ( Phytic acid in plants and oxalates reduce absorption, can cause Calcium Oxalate kidney stones).

Zinc

Animal form:
Found in animal and plant foods. (Mollusks are the highest animal source)

Plant form:
Found in animal and plant foods. (Phytic acid and tannins in plants reduce Zinc absorption)

Magnesium

Animal form:
Found in animal and plant foods. (Mollusks are the highest animal source)

Plant form:
Found in animal and plant foods. (Oxalates and phytic acid in plants reduce Magnesium absorption).

Copper and Phosphorus

Animal form:
Found in animal and plant foods. (Mollusks are the highest animal source, second is liver. For phosphorus, the highest source is bones/bone meal)

Plant form:
Found in animal and plant foods. (Phytic acid in plants reduce Copper and Phosphorus absorption).

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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 17:23:17

In almost every case the bio availability of plant-sourced nutrients is fraction (usually around order of magnitude) less bio available than meat-sourced same. Therefore even if the caloric/protein content is adequate, the vegan diet is woefully inadequate as per the nutrients our body requires. The vegan would need to eat 10x more calories of plant starch to get the necessary vitamins. A recipe for anorexic diabetes.

It is no wonder that only tweens and religious fanatics follow this nonsense. It is suicidal.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 05 Jun 2018, 19:16:24

Amazing how many millions of healthy vegetarian and vegan kids have been raised over the given Yon's claims above. :lol: :lol:

Interesting how he put these ones at the end, too! :)
...
DHA
...
Plant form:
Not found in plant foods. In the body, DHA can also be made from the omega-3 fatty acid ALA, which is found in high amounts in flaxseeds, chia seeds and walnuts....

Calcium
...
Plant form:
Found in animal and plant foods....

Zinc
...
Plant form:
Found in animal and plant foods...

Magnesium...
...
Plant form:
Found in animal and plant foods...

Copper and Phosphorus
...
Plant form:
Found in animal and plant foods.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Yonnipun » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 07:02:08

Don't you love it when you hear how good and healthy fruits/vegetables are for you? How you need fiber and all those good vitamins/minerals which are all lacking in animal foods. Let's talk about something that is usually not mentioned, the anti-nutrients present in plants.

Antinutrients

Phytic acid

Foods:Bran of grains and pseudo-grains, all kind of seeds, nuts, legumes, potatoes.

Neutralization: Birds and ruminant animals: phytaseenzyme. Partially by soaking, cooking, fermenting, sprouting.

Negative Effects: Binding with minerals of food in the gut: deficiency of iron, zinc, calcium and other minerals. Reduces the digestibility of starches, proteins, and fats.

Lectins

Foods: Grains, pseudo-grains, seeds, nuts, legumes, nightshade vegetables, diary, eggs.

Neutralization: Cooking with seaweeds and mucilaginous vegetables (okra). Partially by soaking, boiling in water, fermenting, sprouting.Wheat, soy, peanuts and dried beans are the most resistant to neutralization.

Negative Effects: Leaky gut, neurodegenerative disease,inflammatory diseases, infectious and autoimmune diseases, blood clotting.

Saponins

Foods: Legumes, pseudo-grains, potatoes, red wine.

Neutralization: Different results in studies for soaking, cooking and fermentation. Cholesterol and bile.

Negative Effects: Leaky-gut, disturbs digestive enzymes.

Oligosaccharides

Foods: Legumes

Neutralization: Other animals: alpha-galactosidase. Sprouting, fermentation. Bacteria in the colon.

Negative Effects: Gas production.

Oxalates

Foods: Grains bran, nuts, soy, spinach, rhubarb, swisschard, chocolate, black tea, some fruits and vegetables. Metabolite of fungus and dysbiotic flora. Metabolism of the amino acids glycine and serine, vitamin C and sugar.

Neutralization: Partially by cooking.

Negative Effects: Binding with calcium: Calcium and magnesium deficiency, kidney stones, disturb digestive enzymes. Hyperoxaluria may play a significant role in autism, COPD/asthma, thyroid disease, fibromyalgia, interstitial cystitis, vulvodynia, depression, arthritis. Researchers believed that "Oxalate hyperabsorptionmay be the main reason for stone formation in more than half of the idiopathic calcium oxalate stone formers".

Cyanide

Foods: Beans, manioc, and many fruit pits (such as apricot kernels and apple seeds).

Neutralization: Cooking and phase II liver detox.

Negative Effects: Cerebral damage and lethargy.

Canavanine

Foods: Alfalfa sprout.

Neutralization: Cooking and phase II liver detox and kidneys.

Negative Effects: Abnormal blood cell counts, spleen enlargement, Lupus (if big amount of juice sprouts is taken).

Goitrogens

Foods: Soy, peanuts and cruciferous vegetables

Neutralization: Cooking, fermenting.

Negative Effects: Hypothyroidism.

Tannins

Foods: Legumes, some fruits and vegetables, tea, chocolate, wine, coffee, vinegar.

Neutralization: Tannin-binding salivary proteins. Partially by soaking and cooking. About 90% by germination.

Negative Effects: Zinc and iron deficiency, decrease in both growth rate and body weight gain, perturbation of mineral absorption, inhibition of digestive enzymes, accelerate blood clotting, produce liver necrosis.

Trypsin inhibitor

Foods: Grains and legumes.

Neutralization: Partially by cooking, sprouting.

Negative Effects: Growth inhibition and pancreatitis.

Alpha-amylase inhibitor

Foods: Grains, legumes, nuts skin, stevia leaves.

Neutralization: Partially by cooking, sprouting.

Negative Effects: Dysbiosis (candidiasis). Deleterious histological changes to the pancreas.

Allicin and mustard oil

Foods: Onions, shallots, leeks, chives, scallions, and garlic.

Neutralization: Cooking and phase II liver detox.

Negative Effects: Bad breath, and bad body odor, indigestion, acid reflux, diarrhea, stomach pain, gas, anemia, reduced blood clotting of open wounds., allergic reactions, accidental abortions in humans. Disturbs a baby's ability to breast feed.

Salicylates

Foods: Berries and dried fruits, some vegetables, herbs and spices.

Neutralization: Sulfotransferase enzyme.

Negative Effects: Same as medicines (aspirin): bleeding of the stomach and gastrointestinal tract, dyspepsia, skin reactions, liver toxicity, prolonged bleeding time, impaired kidney function, dizziness, mental confusion, allergic reactions.

Calcitriol, solanine, nicotine

Foods: Green potatoes, egg plant, peppers, tomatoes, goji berries.

Neutralization: Liver and kidneys.

Negative Effects: Calcinosis, muscle pain and tightness, morning stiffness, poor healing, arthritis, insomnia gall bladder problems.

Gluten

Foods: All wheat, rye and barley plants.

Neutralization:

Negative Effects: Digestive problems, leaky gut syndrome or autoimmune disease, allergic reactions, and cognitive problems.

Chaconine

Foods: Corn and plants of the Solanaceae family.

Neutralization: Partially by cooking.

Negative Effects: Digestive issues.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 07:19:37

dohboi wrote:(Six of the nine countries listed as the most food insecure in the first link are among the top 20 for rate of population growth in the second, the other three are in the top 90 for pop. rate growth; None of the top ten countries for food security is in the top 90 for population growth rate; Ireland's the closest, and that will probably change now that abortions have just become legal, finally)

This fact does not seem to jibe well with the perception by some here (again, correct me if I am mistaken to think that some think this) that increased availability of food always (or nearly always) leads to increased population growth rates.

Indeed, the actual data very strongly suggests the exact opposite.

Thanks :)


Good Point. As in many topics we discuss there is not always a direct correlation that can be applied globally. Eating less meat in the US does not necessarily mean that the population in Bangladesh will bloom. We tend to draw these conclusions in a homogeneous fashion which is inaccurate. Similarly with climate change, we discuss a tipping point and imagine the consequences blanketing the whole planet evenly.

Even within a single species there is variation in habitat and latitude in handling external stress from the environment. Individuals on the fringe sometimes get taken out due to stresses, and also sometimes represent the surviving population.

This is one of the primary reasons that disparity of energy, wealth and food sources, arable land and economic strength is not such a bad thing. Of course for the poor suffering in Sub Saharan Africa and similar marginal habitats the suffering is immense, but in the case of what we discuss, human overshoot, having an uneven distribution of wealth and resources once consequences unfold will provide some important pockets of resiliency.
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