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Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 21:49:51

dohboi wrote:Thanks Ibon and KJ for acknowledging that most of us would be healthier with less meat in our diet. That's really all I'm saying, so I guess we all agree now and can sing kumbaya together!? :-D :-D

No kidding! Lots of healthy meat, TONS of vegetables and SCADS of many good oils. :-D 8)
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 21:51:53

Dohboi, cutting GHG's by half probably refers to eliminating the 47% associated with cattle, pigs, sheep, and chickens. But since that includes dairy productioon and eggs, not sure of the overall savings. Also not at all sure how you get omnivores to switch to Vegans.

Don't anybody say carbon tax! Besides, we are talking more about enteric methane (animal burps).
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 03 Jun 2018, 21:54:02

6 Percent of Americans Now Identify as Vegan – Why This Is a Huge Deal for the Planet

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/six- ... -as-vegan/


Why Veganism In The U.S. Has Grown By 600% In The Past 3 Years

http://www.collective-evolution.com/201 ... t-3-years/
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 03:47:02

Pardon me, but you still have not explained the rationale behind "saving the planet".

I get that Vegans generate fewer GHG's than meat eaters.

But in a world now constrained by food supplies among other things, substituting more humans for domestic animals seems like a step backwards. We have consistently expanded human populations all over the globe to match available food supplies.

Like I said in my earlier post, this is not a positive step until after population controls are in place.

Please explain.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 12:16:12

KaiserJeep wrote:Dohboi, cutting GHG's by half probably refers to eliminating the 47% associated with cattle, pigs, sheep, and chickens. But since that includes dairy productioon and eggs, not sure of the overall savings. Also not at all sure how you get omnivores to switch to Vegans.

Besides, it's not like vegetables, etc. have zero carbon footprints. The meat calories would be substituted with a LOT of non-meat calorie products, which have to be watered, treated for pests, harvested, shipped, etc.

And again, without first eliminating all human population growth, nothing is being solved.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 12:21:54

dohboi, not trying to put you on the spot, really. We understand the point you made about GHG reductions associated with a Vegan diet. I really would like your thoughts on IS THAT EVEN A GOOD IDEA, some thing we try to do, before the human population is stabilized.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 14:25:43

Well Dohboi, what do you think? KJ is not delusional and is not a troll. He deserves an answer!
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 15:17:02

There's nothing to answer, really.

A the title of the thread points out (in simplified form...'cause...it's...a...title...), for most people, if they reduce the amount of meant (and dairy) they eat, they will reduce their load on the planet.

This is supported by the many, many studies that I have provided for here. There are various other benefits to moving as far away from meat heavy diets as is practicable for your situation, but the focus here is planetary health.

If you are happy to be among those most responsible for the destruction of the rich diversity of life which we still mostly had in the middle of the last century, and for the destabilization of the climatic systems CO2 levels that have supported life for the last few million years, then don't concern yourself with this or anything else.

(And of course the same goes for those who don't think CO2 levels matter...one reason I'm not constantly addressing the question of such idiots and, yes, trolls :) ).

If you would rather not be in the upper eschelons of those destroying the living planet and the systems supported said life, then the science, as presented here, is quite clear that eating less meat (and dairy...) is one of the things you should consider. I have seen no presentations of any coherent evidence to contradict this position, but I have seen much hand waving, rationalization, gnashing of teeth, attempted character assassinations, building of various straw men, and other forms of denial, logical fallacies and mental gymnastics. I do not feel compelled to comment on each of these gyrations, since I trust that most intelligent, not-already-ideologically-brainwashed readers here can recognize these attempts at self justification for what they rather obviously are. :)
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 15:37:06

I think he just called us “deplorables.”
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 15:52:36

If I may just add, that Dohboi seems to be answering Kaiser's question indirectly in the affirmative. Assuming that we all here are in favor of reducing Co2 emissions to try and stabilize the climate as well as preserving natural habitat and so should welcome reduced meat eating in contributing to this goal. However, Kaiser sees that as immoral given the pivotal role of FF in sustaining our large population. And that as it stands reducing our CO2 emissions amounts to reducing FF use. So, hope this helps clarify the fault lines of this debate. And both sides seem to be saying, the heck with you if that is your stance haha
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 17:43:12

My exact position is that Planet Earth is in human overshoot already. This suggestion that we convert from Omnivorous diets to Vegan diets would reduce emissions and allow more food production from lands that today produce animal feeds.

The net effect of this is just like inventing a new more efficient car, or a way to squeeze more oil from depleted wells, or even a way to process polluted water to remove all impurities. These are all of them "good" things that reduce human impacts upon the Earth, and in the present reality where human reproduction is constrained only by resource limitations, the net impact of such changes is more humans consuming yet more stuff.

One accurate description of the Industrial Revolution that you perhaps have never thought of before would be that it is an entire series of good ideas - 300-odd years of good ideas - about how to grow and harvest and gather food, and to build homes, and to use energy for myriad things that benefit humanity - as a result of which our numbers grew from a tolerable few hundred million to almost 8 Billion, an unsustainable number that is trashing our planet.

I'm making the point that as long as we cannot all of us agree that too many humans are our #1 problem, and take effective measures to curb and even reverse population growth, that all of what might be considered "good ideas" - like a Vegan or Vegetarian diet for example - are actually bad ideas, as they result in further destruction of essential resources as their "benefits" produce more humans and more damage.

Your head can construct a few scenarios that might surprise you. In today's reality, somebody like Donald Trump, who with his penthouse suite in Trump Tower, his multitude of Limos, and his private jetliner that was so over-the-top he had to take a step down with Air Force One, is using enough resources to support 500 or so Third World Citizens. In practicing such conspicious consumption, Trump is effectively preventing the birth of that 500 by consuming the resources they need to live.

Contrast Trump's impacts with that of - just for example - Mother Teresa, aka St. Teresa of Calcutta, for her medical center work which - with no doubt whatsoever - saved thousands of people in the slums of that city from dying. Those thousands of people who are still suffering, still reproducing, and still consuming and polluting.

Now ask yourself if the rest of us are better off because of Saint Teresa, or Donald Trump.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 17:51:16

Kaiser, that is a very articulate post and I fully agree with it. However, I believe that Dohboi would counter that allowing more unrestrained CO2 emissions would invite a doomsday scenario of climate change. But further overpopulation is itself a doomsday scenario. So damned if we do or if we do not
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 18:13:03

Correct. One elaboration: Climate Change is only a symptom of an extreme human overshoot population. If there were still a few hundred million humans on this planet, as there were around 1800AD when the Reverend Malthus made his calculations of approaching Doom, then it would not make any difference whether that few people drove Shelby Cobra 427SC's:
Image
...or Model S Tesla's, fuelled only at solar chargers:
Image
...because the extra carbon dioxide would be so reduced as to matter very little.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 19:32:36

KaiserJeep wrote:The net effect of this is just like inventing a new more efficient car, or a way to squeeze more oil from depleted wells, or even a way to process polluted water to remove all impurities. These are all of them "good" things that reduce human impacts upon the Earth, and in the present reality where human reproduction is constrained only by resource limitations, the net impact of such changes is more humans consuming yet more stuff.

One accurate description of the Industrial Revolution that you perhaps have never thought of before would be that it is an entire series of good ideas - 300-odd years of good ideas - about how to grow and harvest and gather food, and to build homes, and to use energy for myriad things that benefit humanity - as a result of which our numbers grew from a tolerable few hundred million to almost 8 Billion, an unsustainable number that is trashing our planet.


Several points here worth emphasizing and also some additional points worth exploring

KJ is describing a variant of Jevon's Paradox. You increase efficiency that allows for more consumption not less. Allows for more humans.

KJ comment regarding Trump and Mother Theresa is also very much related to the disparity of wealth. In aggregate the global middle class consumes more than the 1%. I billionaire consumes less than a 1000 millionaires. The disparity of wealth actually is a net positive on our planet. You really would not want to distribute wealth to the billions of masses and provide them with monetary oxygen to go out and consume more than they already do.

We are already in human overshoot. All of the conversion of the biomass of natural ecosystems over to the biomass of humans and their slave crops and livestock is already the devastation in the here and now. As I have mentioned countless times the issue of addressing climate change is "on the surface" all about "saving the planet" when in reality it is about making the current trajectory more resilient. Nobody said boo as we ravaged the planets resources but now that there is a threat that might impact us we start raising the alarm. I find this a glaring hypocrisy.

A last point, perhaps the most important of all. Human overshoot puts humanity in a very precarious position because it leaves us no wiggle room. We deplete the resource base to the point that we have used up the reserves that would have been useful once we enter the bottle neck of consequences. One of those reserves still existing is the excessive eating of meat. If climate change results of crop failures we have the reserves of grain to fall back on exactly because we use so much of it to feed livestock. Imagine if we would follow Dohboi's advice, put everyone on a vegan diet now, ramp up the human population and then get hammered with constraints. We used up the wiggle room by depending on all that grain for human consumption.

Lastly, KJ point about the 300 years of the industrial revolution being all about optimization of resource extraction and consumption that has lead us to 8 billion. All good things that created this enormous bad thing. When you deeply reflect on this you can only come to one conclusion. The very consequences of human overshoot are the solution out of this catch 22, this checkmate.

Embrace them, disruptions to the juggernaut of humanity in the form of consequences of human overshoot is the long term solution. When we are back down to 1 billion or so then we can discuss optimizing and self regulating our species population and consumption in harmony with our mother planet. Beforehand there is some serious solutions coming our way. Not a moment too soon.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 19:45:33

Good posts by KJ and Ibon, clear thinking. I’ve nothing substantive to add to the argument. Just wanted to note my concurrence.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 19:53:55

To Dohboi specifically.. Again what I just posted

Imagine if we would follow Dohboi's advice, put everyone on a vegan diet now, ramp up the human population and then get hammered with constraints. We used up the wiggle room by depending on all that grain for human consumption.


Your rebuttal will go something like this. Stop making false statements of things I never said. Yes Dohboi, you never said that you advocate the human population further growing. But this is the glaring consequence of what you are advocating that you never want to address. That KJ and others have been trying to back you into the corner to see. But you wont. And you know why? It will confront an entitlement you hold dear, and yes this is the liberal progressive entitlement that wants equity for all, where everyone is entitled to the same abundance.

This is exactly the flip side of the other ugly entitlement, the Dick Cheney one that says American lifestyles do not come into question in reference to conservation in fighting climate change.

Two sides of the same entitled coin. The solutions of human overshoot are going to seriously undermine both of these divisively opposite entitled positions. It is exactly when consequences undermine both positions in a divisive struggle that you know solutions are unfolding.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 20:04:24

I thank each of you for your input. We are debating a predicament that has no "real" solution except the one noted by Ibon. But, the wiggle room is tied to the speed of the "solution". I am afraid I have to side with Ibon. But that is NOT siding with Kaiser. What keeps so many people alive is "Modern industrial civilization" What is the source of CO2 emissions ? Modern industrial practices. It comes down to the quote that haunts me . "We can have modern industrial civilization or a living Earth but not both" The longer modern industrial civilization exists, the less bountiful, and hospitable Earth will be to higher life forms like us.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 20:06:31

I simply cringe at where these discussions lead sometimes. Ibon is of course correct in his observations and analyses. But there is a thin, sometimes invisible line between elaborating the understanding of the consequences of human overshoot, and advocating some form of genocidal solution for them.

We have observed and commented here about how a certain level of prosperity causes the birthrate to subside naturally to replacement rate, and lower. However we are way past the point where such natural limits can be used for 8 billion humans, there is not enough food/water/energy for that solution, those billions will never enjoy Western First World prosperity. But there is nothing else that can be done, even distribution of birth controls does no good without education, and those folks are 100% occupied simply staying alive.

I simply cannot prescribe genocide as a solution, even if I mealy-mouth the word and call it a "correction". The only difference between a genocide and a correction is the minor matter of deliberate intent, and that distinction is often invisibly thin, impossible to distinguish once the deaths have occurred. The US Government once distributed Smallpox infected blankets through it's Indian Agents, by some accounts, to rid themselves of too many Indians.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 20:18:45

Thank you Kaiser. This is extremely uncomfortable as we have reached the core of this issue. A die off is now inevitable. But then if we voluntarily renounce FF, we hasten it and make it worse. Yes, we hasten it but maybe NOT make it worse considering the inevitable harm/depletion that so many people do to the planet and that by keeping FF, we in fact are continuing to raise CO2 levels and rolling the dice with the stakes ever higher to setup a mass extinction event. I say let modern industrial civilization end, hasten its end and let the chips fall where they may
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 04 Jun 2018, 20:22:03

“We can have modern industrial civilization or a living Earth but not both"


I disagree. For the short term you may appear to have both but for the long term the “modern industrial civilization” only exists because of surpluses built up over periods by the living Earth.

I think the better formulation is you can have a living alEarth so long as you don’t kill it with modern industrial civilization.

I think we can, or could have had, an advanced technological society which may well surpasenourncurrentnachievements. But it would be accomplished by a much smaller population living in harmony with Earth.
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