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Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 30 May 2018, 14:09:29

If we all ate beans and rice and tofu and whole grains and bugs and brewer's yeast we could pack in easily 14 billion on the planet.

Imagine 14 billion humans sucking down rice and beans with a sprinkle of beetles.

I think oral sex would become dangerous......
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Cog » Wed 30 May 2018, 15:26:19

I'm thinking it will take more than a little gas to keep people away from oral sex. People do occasionally fart during orgasm. Not that I have ever done that myself. ;)
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 30 May 2018, 16:26:50

Gentlemen, no need to further twist the screwdriver. I have asked dohboi to consider and to answer my questions about his inconsistent positions on two issues. I am content that he takes a few hours, even a couple of days, to make a thoughtful and considered response.

dohboi, you need to get back to basics. You must either consider the true nature of man the primate, with all that means, or you must hide within the delusional construct of the classic academic world, and deny that mankind is an ape.

I certainly know people who have firmly chosen both of these positions. My Mother, for example, cried when in my early teen years I told her that I did not believe that the Bible was the literal word of God, and that I believed in the story of evolution, after she caught me reading the National Geographic article about the Homo Habilis fossils found by the Leakeys in Olduvai Gorge. That was more than 50 years ago.

I know that most academics are not religious. However that does not mean that they do not share the same basic view of divinely inspired humanity. But it has been SEVEN DECADES since the modern science of Anthropology was built upon the work of Darwin, and 93 years since the infamous "Scopes Monkey Trial". Surely that's time enough to incorporate the true nature of man the primate into the classical view of humanity.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Thu 31 May 2018, 08:37:08

I see KJ and other consider themselves so wise that they have absolute knowledge of the 'the true nature of man.'

I claim no such omniscience...I just follow the numbers, which you all seem incapable of accepting for some reason :roll:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXoNE14U_zM
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 31 May 2018, 11:52:04

dohboi, you really are a disappointment as an intellectual. The rest of us have a belief in and a respect for Science. Even when that Science challenges dearly held beliefs and preconceptions.

This is your thread, and what you said was "Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet". Now we are asking you to justify that assertion. It has already been pointed out to you that man - and all other primates for that matter - are omnivores. We possess canine teeth which are designed for biting and ripping the flesh of animal prey. We have developed long legs to pursue prey, and an upright stance to see prey in the distance, plus an intelligence that allows us to observe prey animals, learn from each frustrated hunt, and improve upon the number of prey animals killed.

You said: "Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet". I'll add to that:

Granola-munchers are killing the planet.
Vegans are killing the planet.
Vegetarians are killing the planet.
Yogurt eaters are killing the planet.
Fish eaters are killing the planet.
.
.
.
.
...I could go on and on, and name every food group and individual item including grasshoppers on a stick, lemon grass tea, tuna in a can, beans and squash, every damned thing that you or me or even the Vietnamese consider edible, and we'd be equally correct in every case, because what is really killing the planet is the overshoot population of humans.

We pointed out to you that no menu has any more merit than any other. It does not matter whether a human eats vegetables, domestic animals, insects, or endangered songbirds. The problem is that we eat all of those things and reproduce essentially without limits.

Your position that eating meat is somehow worse than eating veggies, beans, and other items of food is not only unsupported by facts, but we have pointed out to you that once you have accepted the obvious conclusion that humans are in overshoot, the ideal behavior - FOR THE PLANET - is whatever reduces the human overshoot, and the more unsustainable, the better. That would be because unsustainable behaviors limit the overshoot population of humans.

In fact, I would put it too you that anybody who advocates anything reducing the number of humans is benefitting a planet deeply into human overshoot. If you really and truly believe that avoiding meat has health benefits, then you should be advocating the eating of meat for the good of the planet.

In fact there is no single thing that I could point to that is more harmful to Planet Earth than a committed liberal with his liberal ideals.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 31 May 2018, 14:06:24

KJ, don’t fall ever the eyes, forward facing for prey, predator eyes. And our running ability, humans are the long distance runner champs, for running down prey, predator legs and lungs. And the prey is not likely spinach.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 31 May 2018, 14:47:34

dohboi wrote:I see KJ and other consider themselves so wise that they have absolute knowledge of the 'the true nature of man.'

I claim no such omniscience...I just follow the numbers, which you all seem incapable of accepting for some reason :roll:

Well, the numbers show only a total of 20% of the CO2 production is land use AND agriculture.

And so meat production is only a fraction of that.

So let's not pretend like that is even close to the majority of the problem. :roll:

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/source ... -emissions
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 31 May 2018, 16:08:52

Nobody has EVER made an honest accounting of total GHG emissions. All the Greenies ever want to count is the GHGs from burning fossil fuels for energy and transportation. Animals make emissions, too.
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...in fact 47% of total carbon dioxide and methane are from farm animals. But even the chart above ignores the carbon dioxide and dietary methane emissions of 7.6 Billion humans. I could not find charts or figures that included those sources, which are certainly not zero.

But even so, food animals produce 47% of emissions actually being monitored, and FF burning for Transport/Energy/Industry is 51%. Add the human emissions to the total, and the FF burning emissions contributions would be a third or less. That's not even counting volcanic GHG emissions, either.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 07:46:05

Any time you see anyone using the word 'greenie,' you know that they are willfully ignorant ultra-right-wing ideologues, not really worthy of interacting with.

Meanwhile, more science just keeps rolling in on my side of the argument, and all I hear from the other side is hand-waving, unsubstantiated assumptions, and various other ways of rationalizing activity they know to be harmful.

Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

“The new analysis shows that while meat and dairy provide just 18% of calories and 37% of protein, it uses the vast majority – 83% – of farmland and produces 60% of agriculture’s greenhouse gas emissions.”

” “A vegan diet is probably the single biggest way to reduce your impact on planet Earth, not just greenhouse gases, but global acidification, eutrophication, land use and water use,” said Joseph Poore, at the University of Oxford, UK, who led the research. “It is far bigger than cutting down on your flights or buying an electric car,” he said, as these only cut greenhouse gas emissions. ”

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... t-on-earth
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 08:16:14

dohboi wrote:
Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth



I think it was Ghung who called me out that he does not do absolutes which I find relevant to this thread. And relevant to why it is irresistible to tease Dohboi on this topic.

The above statement of avoiding meat and dairy is one of those absolutes that sharpens the incisors of any human omnivore reading this.

And now to my personal experience having raised beef cattle here at Mount Totumas. When we bought these 400 acres about a third was covered in pasture as the previous owners were cattle farmers. They had 100 head of cattle. The rest of the land was forest, some of it primary cloud forest, and the upper sections bordered directly central america's largest highland conservation area, La Amistad National Park. Any grasslands in Panama under 3000m are artificially maintained, all are converted forest and to maintain these grasslands you need human labor and herbicides. Contrast this to say pastureland out in western US were buffalo previously roamed prairie habitat. In that case you replaced one ruminant with another and the impact ecologically is neutral.

Here at Mount Totumas we reduced the pasture by 2/3rds, keep only a fifth of the cattle as the previous owners, and have watched the reforestation in abandoned pastures convert to pioneer species of native forest vegetation. It has been astounding the native species of birds and other fauna that now occupy this area. As a side note this is why I embrace the consequences of climate change and other ramifications of human overshoot because once human population decline is the result we will see the recolonization of former habitat springing up all over the planet just like I observe here with these reforested pastures.

The issue regarding eating meat is all about the imbalance not about the absolute question of whether or not it is detrimental to our planet.

Which is related to all of the other issues we discuss, something KJ repeatedly mentions as I have and that is that overpopulation is the source of the problem, and how that relates to the consumption of meat is directly related.

Would we have had to convert lowland rainforest to cow pastures if our global population was 1 billion?

Would we have had to practice intensive agriculture and stuff beef cattle with hormones and antibiotics and cram them into inhumane feed lots if we were only feeding a 10th of our global population?

Again absolutes matter and where Dohboi deserves some credit on this topic is that it is also not exclusively and absolutely over population that is the problem but the very business and economics behind the raising of cattle that results in some of these ecologically unsound practices which are also inhumane. So it is a combination of bad agricultural practices together with the pressures to feed 7 billion plus.

So where this topic should really be discussed, if we were all measured and mature, would be to discuss the way meat consumption could be reduced and all the positive spin offs this would create regarding biosphere health, ecosystem health and personal health.

But that would be a boring conversation since it is so much funner to just tease this boards vegan. Who deserves it as much as we also have to give him some credit.

As Plantagent said, who would read this thread anyway if it didn't have a title that was an "absolute" and was meant to rise the ire of all the boards carnivores.

Now back to teasing Dohboi, if you are really determined to practice being a vegan and save the planet why don't you file or grind your cuspid and bicuspid teeth flat. There are folks that have sex change operations due to their sexual orientation. Why don't you do the same with your teeth?
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Cog » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:08:49

Yes because carbs haven't caused the largest increase in both obesity and Type 2 diabetes that we have ever seen. :lol: Take your carbs elsewhere. They are poison for the body. Protein and fat is the way to live a healthy lifestyle for humans.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:23:21

I understand the health advantages and disadvantages of consuming domestic animals. I also believe that what dohboi wants to eat is his personal business. Lastly I would not challenge his First Amendment right to advocate any human diet he wishes.

The only thing I am objecting to is his continued and oft-repeated statements that anything that promotes more humans and fewer domestic animals is good for the planet, or that those who consume meat among the other behaviors he condemns are "killing the planet".

I just do not think that he has mentally digested the fact that the globe is overpopulated with humans, and incorporated that into his world view. The abandonning of meat production would obviously allow us to substitute more vegan human flesh for the animal flesh, especially the ruminants that you mention. And good point about the USA's Great Plains being covered with beef and dairy cattle in place of plains buffalo and woods bison, the two related species that were originally there. What's even worse of course, is that we today spray a witches brew of petrochemicals on almost sterile soils and grow corn sweeteners there. Being a confirmed diabetic who is helpless to resist sugar in many forms, I thoroughly understand the consequences of that. Nor do I approve really of the use of grain alcohols for fuels, because it prolongs the petroleum supply and delays the conversion to EVs.

dohboi, I truly do not care what you eat and advocate eating. I do care that you have not incorporated an appreciation for the human overshoot population into your world view. Because all those things that you identify in your "killing the planet" threads are in fact BAD FOR THE PLANET because they are GOOD FOR HUMANS. Anything promoting more humans before we have solved the fundamental human overpopulation issue is a bad thing. I would lump your advocacy of vegan diets in with Western medical technologies, modern petroleum-fueled agriculture, and the construction of energy-intensive dwelling spaces, as bad things that make it possible for more humans to exist. Because with a sustainable population of humans, none of those things would be problems either. Nor would the endless debate about whether our habits do or do not change the climate be of any importance. Nor would there be a human apocalypse approaching when we run out of cheap fossil energy.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:54:52

"I would lump your advocacy of vegan diets in with Western medical technologies, modern petroleum-fueled agriculture, and the construction of energy-intensive dwelling spaces, as bad things that make it possible for more humans to exist."

So modern medicine is a bad thing? Human existence is a bad thing?

I understand your pedantic reasoning. Anything that makes humans comfortable and capable of breeding is bad, because (as you must have decided) humans will always and automatically . . . over breed. But of course that is wrong.

I and my family have been promoting zero population control and family planning for generations. Replacement-breeding comes from education, security, and a happy future.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 11:12:33

KaiserJeep wrote: Anything promoting more humans before we have solved the fundamental human overpopulation issue is a bad thing. I would lump your advocacy of vegan diets in with Western medical technologies, modern petroleum-fueled agriculture, and the construction of energy-intensive dwelling spaces, as bad things that make it possible for more humans to exist. Because with a sustainable population of humans, none of those things would be problems either. Nor would the endless debate about whether our habits do or do not change the climate be of any importance. Nor would there be a human apocalypse approaching when we run out of cheap fossil energy.

This. Fundamental. Truth.

No matter how many advocates one can cram on the head of a pin to argue for or against this GHG producer or that, the details are IRRELEVANT as long as BAU population growth continues.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 12:17:57

pstarr, I in fact DO BELIEVE that humans will overbreed as a default condition, expanding their numbers to fill available niches in the environment, and then some. That is after all what primates do.

I am #1 of six kids, my Mother was #1 of thirteen kids. My father was #1 of two. But they were both born in the 1920s and grew up in adverse conditions in the Great Depression. Else my Father would probably have had another half dozen siblings at least, had not the farm dried up and then blew away, leaving him a black Ford sedan for a home. Never-the-less, I had one kid, she planned for one and was surprised by twins. So the message got passed, or absorbed, or whatever. Most developed nations are falling to replacement birth rates, the USA for example would have a falling population if it were not for immigration - and it needs to have such.

The prevailing opinion - which I do accept - is that education and the easy availability of birth controls is all that is necessary to have effective population control. Which is why 6+ Billion people WHO ARE ALREADY PRESENT will never have such, because already, there is NOT ENOUGH STUFF to give them all education and birth control. That would be the intransient conundrum we all share.

At least, dohboi is educated and can appreciate his untenable position. IF that is, we can in effect bang his head against an unyielding object until he acknowledges this. Because he has the Liberal disease, he has been victimized by a classical education, and he is rejecting the Science and ignoring what the numbers say. Anthropology and the ape nature of mankind are being denied by those with educations in the "humanities".

Those IDIOT ACADEMICS like dohboi are in effect KILLING THE PLANET because of their pedantic insistence in promoting more humans in a world that is rapidly being destroyed by an overabundance of humans. ENOUGH ALREADY, dohboi does not get to take an untenable intellectual position unless he can make a convincing argument to support same.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 13:07:36

KaiserJeep wrote:pstarr, I in fact DO BELIEVE that humans will overbreed as a default condition, expanding their numbers to fill available niches in the environment, and then some. That is after all what primates do.

Then how do you explain parks and other wild lands? Countries all over the world are protecting these place, prohibiting human habitation.

KaiserJeep wrote:The prevailing opinion - which I do accept - is that education and the easy availability of birth controls is all that is necessary to have effective population control. Which is why 6+ Billion people WHO ARE ALREADY PRESENT will never have such, because already, there is NOT ENOUGH STUFF to give them all education and birth control. That would be the intransient conundrum we all share.
I too accept that education and birth control are necessary conditions for population control. But not the only condition, not even the most salient one. It is old-age security. Your relatives had large families under the anticipation that they (themselves) would be cared for by their offspring . . . many offspring. We know have social security system. It works. Until it doesn't.

KaiserJeep wrote:At least, dohboi is educated and can appreciate his untenable position. IF that is, we can in effect bang his head against an unyielding object until he acknowledges this. Because he has the Liberal disease, he has been victimized by a classical education, and he is rejecting the Science and ignoring what the numbers say. Anthropology and the ape nature of mankind are being denied by those with educations in the "humanities".

Those IDIOT ACADEMICS like dohboi are in effect KILLING THE PLANET because of their pedantic insistence in promoting more humans in a world that is rapidly being destroyed by an overabundance of humans. ENOUGH ALREADY, dohboi does not get to take an untenable intellectual position unless he can make a convincing argument to support same.

You misunderstand dohboi's position. It is neither logical, nor correct. But neither is you refutation. dohboi's vegan program would not increase human population. It would kill MORE not less people. Your counterargument (that we should eat meat because it will kill more humans faster) is just plain mean and dumb.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 13:19:57

KaiserJeep wrote: Because all those things that you identify in your "killing the planet" threads are in fact BAD FOR THE PLANET because they are GOOD FOR HUMANS. Anything promoting more humans before we have solved the fundamental human overpopulation issue is a bad thing.


A couple years ago on another thread I made the following statement:

In times of abundance what is good for the species is good for the specimen (individual)

In times of correction of overshoot what is good for the species is bad for the specimen (individual).

In other words there is a decoupling between the species health as a whole and the individual members during the correction of overshoot. What is detrimental to the individual strengthens the whole during the correction phase.

I would even venture to say that culture intuits this. The great shift that we see now starting where countries contract toward nationalism and protecting their own borders and tribal interest starts to decouple from the integrity of the whole.

Brexit, Donald Trump, Italy's recent anti immigrant populism, etc, etc. are all cultural reflections of this conscious and perhaps unconscious collective awareness that our species has reached the turning point.

KJ, your above statement is related to themes touched on by Montequest 10 years ago that raised the hackles and ire of many.

You are very close in your statement to advocating indirectly the necessity to increase the death rate for the health of humanity. Indirectly this is what we are doing when we close our borders and cease giving aid. When you say that liberals, left unrestrained in their quest of equality and entitled rights for all would be the worst thing for the planet. For me there is truth in this as it is an example of the same entitlement you can see on the opposite side when for example Dick Cheney said that Americans lifestyle does not come into question when it comes to climate change. Two sides of the same entitled coin! !

Yes, we are undergoing a cultural transition and the deeper reasons can be found in the both conscious and unconscious collective awareness that we are in ecological overshoot. You don't have to be a trained ecologist to understand this. We should give more credit to that unruly collective out there.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 13:33:06

pstarr wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:pstarr, I in fact DO BELIEVE that humans will overbreed as a default condition, expanding their numbers to fill available niches in the environment, and then some. That is after all what primates do.

Then how do you explain parks and other wild lands? Countries all over the world are protecting these place, prohibiting human habitation.


This is a good point but it must be tempered with the fact that if you do a survey globally of protected areas you will see that most of these areas have very little utility in growing food. Most of Thailand's national parks are in Karst Limestone escarpments, Here in La Amistad NP in western Panama you can't grow much food in a cloud forest. All those wonderful national parks, take Utah for example in western north america are not really agricultural areas. It just so happens that many national parks around the world are useless for growing food.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 13:38:45

Ibon wrote:
pstarr wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:pstarr, I in fact DO BELIEVE that humans will overbreed as a default condition, expanding their numbers to fill available niches in the environment, and then some. That is after all what primates do.

Then how do you explain parks and other wild lands? Countries all over the world are protecting these place, prohibiting human habitation.


This is a good point but it must be tempered with the fact that if you do a survey globally of protected areas you will see that most of these areas have very little utility in growing food. Most of Thailand's national parks are in Karst Limestone escarpments, Here in La Amistad NP in western Panama you can't grow much food in a cloud forest. All those wonderful national parks, take Utah for example in western north america are not really agricultural areas. It just so happens that many national parks around the world are useless for growing food.

True that. The best food growing regions are well-watered lowlands . . . like much of the Indian subcontinent. Still, the parks do all contain some livable land with the necessary climate and geology to support many people, especially people with access to modern transport and farming tools. Yet countries everywhere have chosen to limit populations in those wonderful places.

So in conclusion; we are not necessarily pests to be exterminated lol
Last edited by pstarr on Fri 01 Jun 2018, 13:40:23, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 13:39:39

pstarr wrote:You misunderstand dohboi's position. It is neither logical, nor correct. But neither is you refutation. dohboi's vegan program would not increase human population. It would kill MORE not less people. Your counterargument (that we should eat meat because it will kill more humans faster) is just plain mean and dumb.


It may be mean but it is not dumb. In fact we don't need any adjective on whether it is virtuous, moral or deranged. It happens to simply be a growing orientation globally that will probably bloom toward a dominant cultural orientation as human overshoot corrects.

Embrace it as part of the solution. Tribal nationalism is as much part of the solution of overpopulation as is the consequences of climate change. All of these are solutions to be embraced because they simply are adaptive to the underlying premise that in times of correction to overshoot what is bad for the individual is good for the species.

We will see a lot more of this. These are the opening acts. We can witness in the 10 years many of us have posted on this site the collective shift toward slowly embracing a more callous position toward marginalized humans.

There are too many of us. We will learn to compartmentalize our compassion towards our own..... toward the rest Das Boot ist Voll.
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