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Making Tesla profitable?

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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 18 Nov 2016, 18:43:51

Wow! What a surprise!. Musk is a lying self-serving psycho. HyperLoop, MarsCity, HomeStorageBatteryThing. All MuskHype (tm). And then his YuppieEV? Musk will rue the day he ever set eyes on on a Chebby Bolt.
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby baha » Fri 20 Jan 2017, 21:39:12

I notice there hasn't been much activity on this subject lately. Maybe because Tesla has opened his Mega-factory and will be powering it with PV panels from SolarCity.

You guys are out there...You are so deep into doom you can't see the future staring you in face. And if Tesla is successful you might have to admit there is a future.

Musk is a dreamer just like you, but he dreams of success while you dream of death and doom.

My investment in Tesla has already returned 20%. there is more to it than profits. there is the chance to be part of the future.
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 20 Jan 2017, 22:00:22

baha wrote:
My investment in Tesla has already returned 20%. there is more to it than profits. there is the chance to be part of the future.


How do you think Tesla will do during the upcoming Trump years?

Will the tax $7500 tax credit for buying an EV survive the Rs promise to reform the US tax code? If this tax credit gets killed off then that will effectively raise the cost of a TESLA by $7500 per car.

AND How about the ZEV (zero emission vehicle) tax credits? Tesla made about 140 million in the 4th quarter dollars selling ZEV credits---do you think the Rs will end this program as well and wipe out this profit source for TESLA?

tesla-zev-credits

Cheers!

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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby baha » Fri 20 Jan 2017, 22:18:09

The current Tesla buyers won't blink over $7500. The model 3 will suffer but so will the Chevy Bolt. Tesla will soon reach the 200,000 car limit and lose the incentive anyway.

In fact most of the people already signed up for the model 3 will buy no matter. It's a cult thing not economic. That's over 300,000 already sold. That's one reason I think Tesla is a good investment. This supports the respect for Mother Earth paradigm. And rather than just buy a car I decided to buy part of the company.

The other is I think superior technology will win out in the end. Have you seen a Model S up close? It is unlike any car you will ever see.

Trump knows these are the jobs of the future. We can take the lead if we just push right now...
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby baha » Sat 21 Jan 2017, 07:01:26

Planty - you are such a tease! But those are some nice girls :)
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 21 Jan 2017, 11:43:03

16179667_10212187250695333_3624850345152923973_o.jpg
Tesla Update
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby baha » Sat 21 Jan 2017, 12:31:39

Exactly...How can you doubt someone who delivers supplies to the space station?
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby phaster » Sat 21 Jan 2017, 15:50:01

Back down to earth and a similar topic, anyone here ever hear of Arcimoto?

The reason I ask is because they offer an new category of electric transportation (a three wheel motorcycle)

At beginning beginning of the year they sent out an email to individuals who put up $100 to be in the production cue, that they were looking for investors:

https://www.fundable.com/arcimoto

I know from past history that bringing a vehicle to market is a daunting task and the odds of success are slim...

Yet I'm intrigued by the offer to invest in this particular company because over the years they've iterated onto a prototype KISS design that fits my mission (basically an urban "electric" runabout) at a realistic price point of $12K and given mr trump is interested in cultivating domestic production, think this company and their vision is where public sentiment and the marketplace will be in the future

so just wondering what you all think

https://www.facebook.com/Arcimoto/

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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 21 Jan 2017, 21:57:30

baha wrote: It's a cult thing not economic.

Congratulations. You just explained one of Tesla's biggest problems.

Longer term, for Tesla to become a large, financially successful mainstream car company, it has to be able to sell to the middle class -- by the millions. The people who care about practical things like quality, durability, and service. Things like if there is a reliable shop to service their car NEAR them. Things like if their car can consistently be fixed quickly when something goes wrong.

Tesla has been great with hype, and fine selling to the super-green crowd.

But to sell to the middle class in volume, they'll have to compete against real car company making and servicing EV's, with their money and their established production networks, and their experience behind them.

It's a big unknown whether Tesla can do that. In the short run, it's got lots of strikes against it in the real world about things like fast and reliable service, the distribution of dealers to service the car, etc. Not that I'd expect a Tesla fanboi to be able to see it, much less admit it.

http://www.autonews.com/article/2016111 ... ice-delays

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... 67d34570cf

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... eliability

Good luck with your investment. It might do real well IF things break well for Tesla. If they don't, given how it's priced, the stock could tank badly.

Even though they're currently behind Tesla, several quality traditional car companies awakened to the need for EV's and PHEV's and committed to them within the next 3-4 years rather heavily, so I believe that brands like Toyota, Mercedes Benz, Porsche, and even the somewhat hapless GM to compete just fine against Tesla by the 2020-2021 timeframe. In fact, if EV's REALLY take off in volume for the middle class, I'd much rather bet on Toyota than Tesla.
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 21 Jan 2017, 22:10:42

phaster wrote:The reason I ask is because they offer an new category of electric transportation (a three wheel motorcycle)

At beginning beginning of the year they sent out an email to individuals who put up $100 to be in the production cue, that they were looking for investors:

I think using the equivalent of crowdfunding (or desperation) to try and help fund vaporware vehicles is a bad joke. To me, when companies are doing this, it says you can't trust their financials, or that their products will hit critical mass for mainstream service and support.

I'm happy to buy a vehicle from a real world, reliable, proven car company, even if it's moderately expensive -- as long as it delivers on durability and reliability. I am NOT willing to send transportation companies a check in hopes that someday I might get a vehicle, which they don't even have in mainstream production yet.

That's venture capital and super-green enthusiast territory.

Especially when this class of vehicle already exists -- it's called a golf cart. For $12,000? Surely they jest.

Looking at their site: want it fully enclosed? That's planned to be an option at around an extra $3,000. Want a climate system beyond a vent for heating and defrosting -- that's planned to be an option at some point at an undisclosed price.

The Camry I just bought for $21,000 with an incredible amount of built in features and some nice options is starting to look very inexpensive indeed.
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby baha » Sun 22 Jan 2017, 07:47:38

Yes Tesla is a risky investment but those are the ones that pay off big, or not :) I have only spent as much as I am willing to lose.

Buying a car based on my personal beliefs is the only way I have ever done it. I have never owned a Toyota because I will not send my money to Japan. Even my classic VWs are re-built with parts from CA. Tesla combines American know how with a vision for the future. Everyone else is just playing catchup.

As a believer in AGW I feel I need to do everything I can to move away from FF. That is why I work in solar and my next car will be electric. And that is why I use my money to support green companies. My cult will survive and prosper.

What I don't understand is why the people here at PO.com, who know what is coming, are more interested in timing the collapse and battling the zombies than moving in the right direction. You are the ones who should admit that your are twiddling your thumbs and making excuses instead of pushing in the right direction.
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby baha » Sun 22 Jan 2017, 08:18:34

This is my '63 Bahabug. This is a toy from a previous life but I still drive it occasionally. It has a 3.1 liter fuel injected chevy V6. Not very FF responsible but better than a Jeep. I built it myself. I have always been a member of an automotive cult :)

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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby baha » Sun 22 Jan 2017, 08:25:37

I'm saving it in case we do Mad Max :)
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 22 Jan 2017, 12:19:02

phaster wrote:Back down to earth and a similar topic, anyone here ever hear of Arcimoto?

The reason I ask is because they offer an new category of electric transportation (a three wheel motorcycle)

At beginning beginning of the year they sent out an email to individuals who put up $100 to be in the production cue, that they were looking for investors:

https://www.fundable.com/arcimoto

I know from past history that bringing a vehicle to market is a daunting task and the odds of success are slim...

Yet I'm intrigued by the offer to invest in this particular company because over the years they've iterated onto a prototype KISS design that fits my mission (basically an urban "electric" runabout) at a realistic price point of $12K and given mr trump is interested in cultivating domestic production, think this company and their vision is where public sentiment and the marketplace will be in the future

so just wondering what you all think

https://www.facebook.com/Arcimoto/

Image


Three-wheeled motorcycles are not new, they have been around since the 1930's. The venerable UK sports car manufacturer Morgan and the German firm BMW both manufactured 3-wheelers beginning before WW2.

The reason for selecting a 3-wheeler layout is to exempt the vehicle from the FMVSS safety standards for cars established by the DOT. The result is a vehicle just as hazardous as a motorcycle with the added hazard that most drivers of such vehicles are not experienced motorcycle drivers and drive as if they had two tons of steel wrapped around them. The one clear advantage over a 2-wheeled motorcycle is that with a 3-wheeler you don't need to balance a few hundred pounds as if it were a 30-lb bicycle. The disadvantage of course is they roll over much easier than 4-wheeled cars, which is why the one you linked to has a roll cage. IMHO a roll cage is something you should always have but plan never to use, which is why I added an aftermarket roll cage to my Jeep Wrangler.

It is your right to drive whatever you want. However I must point out that no three-wheeled vehicle has ever remained in production as long as have either the Nissan or Tesla EVs. A Tesla is a reasonably safe vehicle that weighs about 4600 lbs in the case of the Model S sedan, which means that things are fairly equal in a collision with another typical 2+ ton vehicle. But in any collision with a conventional 2-ton car and a motorcycle, the much lighter motorcycle is a deathtrap.

It is still your decision to make, of course. The only thing I would ask of you is the same request I would make of any motorcycle driver:

Please fill out an organ donor card and carry it around with you at all times.
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby phaster » Sun 22 Jan 2017, 13:32:20

In my neck of the woods (SoCal) and neighborhood in particular it's getting a lot more crowded, thankfully I don't have to drive to work but you have to run errands

I have a number of vehicles, but none are electric and most of the errands I have to run are in a 2 to 3 mile radius and accessible via surface roads where the max speed limit is 35 MPH

Thought about getting a NEV, but the topography is "hilly" so that's why I think a three wheel electric motorcycle is the perfect tool for mission

Not too long ago gave my niece some driving lessons in my old 80 series Land Cruiser, and now she wants one

But her mom asked me is it safe? Basically had to laugh because even though it's older it still has lots of mass and related some advice I picked up in flight school...

"given the best equipment a dumbshit will always manage to find a way to either hurt or kill themselves and others, SO DON'T be a dumbshit!!!!"


As a kid (teen actually) witnessed firsthand a friend dump a bike doing stupid stuff and almost killing himself on different occasions, also pilot training made me very conscious of something called "situational awareness"

So even though I know statistically motorcycles have a higher fatality rate in accidents, I also know it's possible to avoid accidents by just paying attention

WRT three wheel vehicles like, the "old" morgan, the Messerschmitt KR200 and Reliant Robin I know of their market failures with short production runs,... BUT have you noticed the can-am?

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/l ... story.html

then there is the zero "electric" motorcycle, where the reviewer noted it was well suited for stop and go traffic

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016 ... test-bike/

basically my reading of the tea leaves is, a three wheel all electric motorcycle (w/ a low C.G. because of the battery pack), manufactured domestically, if brought to market has a better than 50-50 chance of success
Last edited by phaster on Sun 22 Jan 2017, 13:41:43, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby phaster » Sun 22 Jan 2017, 13:35:29

baha wrote:This is my '63 Bahabug. This is a toy from a previous life but I still drive it occasionally. It has a 3.1 liter fuel injected chevy V6. Not very FF responsible but better than a Jeep. I built it myself. I have always been a member of an automotive cult :)

BahaBug.jpg


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NICE, your rig would have been my pick for a grand tour road trip

http://www.grandtournation.com/2816/cla ... al-mh1211/
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby baha » Sun 22 Jan 2017, 13:45:48

Dude, where are you from? Can't you see you're driving on the wrong side of the beach :)
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby phaster » Sun 22 Jan 2017, 13:56:18

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
phaster wrote:The reason I ask is because they offer an new category of electric transportation (a three wheel motorcycle)

At beginning beginning of the year they sent out an email to individuals who put up $100 to be in the production cue, that they were looking for investors:

I think using the equivalent of crowdfunding (or desperation) to try and help fund vaporware vehicles is a bad joke. To me, when companies are doing this, it says you can't trust their financials, or that their products will hit critical mass for mainstream service and support.

I'm happy to buy a vehicle from a real world, reliable, proven car company, even if it's moderately expensive -- as long as it delivers on durability and reliability. I am NOT willing to send transportation companies a check in hopes that someday I might get a vehicle, which they don't even have in mainstream production yet.

That's venture capital and super-green enthusiast territory.

Especially when this class of vehicle already exists -- it's called a golf cart. For $12,000? Surely they jest.

Looking at their site: want it fully enclosed? That's planned to be an option at around an extra $3,000. Want a climate system beyond a vent for heating and defrosting -- that's planned to be an option at some point at an undisclosed price.


venture capital and super-green enthusiast territory - no denying it, I'm guilty of the charge!!!

basically know I'm lucky in that financially I can afford to drop 12k or whatever on crowdfunding "investment" and it won't have any advise effect on my lifestyle

figure the worst case scenario is I write it off as a tax loss...
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 22 Jan 2017, 14:59:39

That depends entirely on how stubborn that company is. I have mentioned several times the $7500 I "invested" in Cape Wind in 2007, and they have yet to start building the offshore wind farm that Obama called "shovel ready" that same year. Nor have they gone bankrupt - even though the decade of litigation costs alone would make any electricity they generate more than $0.50 per KWh. Unfortunately I came to this realization after retirement, with no taxable income to write the "investment" off against.
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Re: Making Tesla profitable?

Unread postby phaster » Sun 22 Jan 2017, 16:36:38

KaiserJeep wrote:That depends entirely on how stubborn that company is. I have mentioned several times the $7500 I "invested" in Cape Wind in 2007, and they have yet to start building the offshore wind farm that Obama called "shovel ready" that same year. Nor have they gone bankrupt - even though the decade of litigation costs alone would make any electricity they generate more than $0.50 per KWh. Unfortunately I came to this realization after retirement, with no taxable income to write the "investment" off against.


I'm a member of the EAA (experimental aircraft association) and awhile back one of local chapter members was hired by Aptera to fabricate various assemblies

http://www.plugincars.com/aptera-2e

So this is what got me interested years ago in three wheeled vehicle configurations, also got insight into his take on how not to trying to bring something to market

Basically with "Aptera" the vehicle was complex (thus costly), also from what I gather the management was top-heavy and not too pragmatic, when I looked at "Arcimoto" the idea is KISS engineering thus less costly to certify w/ respect to FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard) and since it's "electric" a lot less CARB (California Air Resources Board) "bureaucracy" (i.e. bull$hit)

https://cleantechnica.com/2016/05/16/ar ... hnica-exc/

http://documents.allpatents.com/d/g/Arcimoto-Inc

Still lots of questions about "manufacturing" and "financing" but with a KISS design that means it's easier for robotic assembly, also given it's an electric motorcycle the parts count is 1/10 that of an automobile

Who knows since trump's pledge was to "make america great again" and all news reports indicate he is all about taxing imports, that to me indicates any home grown product that provides local jobs has a better chance looking forward for government financial assistance

Actually it all makes sense now why trump didn't want to release his tax returns, because that would show the world he is the designed genius and chief financier of the three wheel Arcimoto motorcycle company :lol:
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