[GHung]

http://www.carolinapublicpress.org/2363 ... ation-plan

Duke reverses course on ‘modernization’ plan

ASHEVILLE – Angry reaction to Duke Energy’s plans for Western North Carolina have prompted the company to rethink its strategy.

Duke had promised to reveal the proposed route for its 230-Kv transmission lines between Buncombe County and a substation in South Carolina this month.

Instead, the energy company announced Wednesday that it was scrapping those plans and has come up with a new approach to modernizing the WNC energy infrastructure.

The new plan would:

Replace Duke’s coal plant on Asheville’s Lake Julian with two smaller 280-megawatt natural gas plants, plus an optional 190-megawatt plant that could be added after 2023, rather than the single larger natural gas plant initially proposed. The coal plant would be retired by 2020. The new units would operate with a dual fuel source so oil could serve as an emergency backup, should the gas supply be interrupted.

Plan for a utility-scale solar plant at the Lake Julian site.

No longer include the substation that Duke originally planned for Campobello, S.C., and the 45-mile transmission line linking the two locations. This line would likely have run across the mountains and foothills in portions of Buncombe, Henderson, Rutherford and Polk counties. Transmission lines and substation upgrades would instead use existing rights-of-way.

Focus on reduction in peak power demand and increased efficiency through cooperation across the region.

Promote the growth of renewable energy and related technologies in the region.

Reduce sulfur dioxide emissions by an estimated 90-to 95 percent and nitrogen oxide by 35 percent, while eliminating mercury.

Withdraw 97 percent less water from the lake and discharge 50 percent less.

Reduce carbon dioxide emissions by about 60 percent as a result of gains in efficiency and the cleaner-burning nature of natural gas versus coal.

“We have been committed to developing a plan to maintain the region’s power reliability with the least possible impact on communities, property owners and the environment from the start of this effort, and we believe our revised plans accomplish those goals,” said Lloyd Yates, Duke executive vice president for market solutions and president for the Carolinas region, in a statement released Wednesday.

“While the previous plan was more robust and scaled for the longer-term, the new plan balances concerns raised by the community and the very real need for more electricity to serve this growing region,” Yates said.

Duke estimates the project’s cost as close to the $1.1 billion project for the original plan.

Regional environmental advocates, who sharply criticized Duke’s original plan, sounded an optimistic tone on Wednesday.

“Eliminating transmission lines and a proposed substation is a significant win for the residents of WNC and upstate South Carolina,” said Julie Mayfield, co-director of MountainTrue.

“We came together, voiced our concerns, and Duke Energy heard our call. We applaud Duke for listening to our communities, going back to the drawing board and setting a new course that is more consistent with our values and respectful of our region’s natural heritage.”

Even so, Mayfield also expressed caution. “Today we can celebrate but tomorrow we go back to work,” she said. “Though we are pleased the proposed plant is smaller than originally proposed, natural gas is still a major contributor to climate change; and our region is already feeling the impacts.”

The plant in question:
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.470642, ... a=!3m1!1e3

Duke Energy, headquartered in Charlotte, North Carolina, is the largest electric power holding company in the United States, with assets also in Canada and Latin America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_Energy

David takes on Goliath and reaches a compromise. Good to see.

[Plantagenet]

Good post, and congrats to Duke Energy for shifting to a more modern energy delivery plan.

Still, Duke's new plan is still based on the construction of new fossil fuel electrical plants---Natural gas is better then coal, but its still a FF and it still causes global warming. AND new studies show that NG really isn't much better then coal and, when you include methane leaks before the NG gets to the power plant, may actually be worse then coal.

Generating electricity with natural gas releases CO2 which caused global warming. When you burn NG you get CO2, just like when you burn coal.

And NG is basically methane, which itself is a much more powerful greenhouse gas then CO2. Adding just a few parts per BILLION concentrations of methane to the atmosphere increases global warming. While the methane is 100% consumed when burned in the power plant, study after study is now showing that large amounts of methane are being released to the atmosphere during fracking, during NG production at the well, during transport and during storage of the NG.

And did I mention the NG is produced by fracking? The article doesn't mention where the NG for the Duke power plant will come from, but most likely it would be the Marcellus in PA requiring new NG pipelines to built. Congrats to Duke for not building 40 miles of transmission lines, but how many hundreds of miles of NG pipeline will be built?

Yes, this is an improvement over building new coal-fired power plants, but really not by much. NG power plants also cause greenhouse warming by releasing CO2 AND CH4.

natural-gas-offers-little-benefit-in-fight-against-global-warming

[ROCKMAN]

Damn you Ghung: you force me to sound like I agree with the plantmeister. So the big win is that Duke is going forward with their major expansion of fossil fuel generated electricity. Sure...wrap some nice little side perks on to it. But this is a "big win" for environmentalists? LOL. I would hate to see what a loss looks like. Oh, wait, we have those to look at...as I detailed elsewhere.

[GHung]

Part of the 'win' is that they've cancelled the 40+ mile new transmission line into South Carolina. I worked in that area, and those are some beautiful mountains, much of it fairly pristine. Better to use existing rights-of-way than to use eminent domain to cut more giant expensive gashes through productive wilderness areas. Also, CO2 isn't the only pollutant of concern. Many waterways in our western Carolina mountains have elevated mercury levels. For decades, coal-burning plants, especially upwind in the Tennessee Valley, have been releasing emissions that settle in our mountain valleys, depositing heavy metals and acidifying rain, soil and water with sulphur compounds. Natural gas isn't a perfect solution, but will be a major improvement.

It will also eliminate the tons of coal ash that has been disposed of in tailing ponds, several which have failed in recent years, utterly destroying the watersheds down stream. When a big part of your revenues come from outdoor tourism and things like trout fishing/farming, those things matter a lot. Those tailing ponds also leach nasties into the watershed, despite so-called best efforts and regulations. Historically, it's been cheaper for the power producers to pay the fines than fix the problems. Those days are coming to an end; a big factor in Duke's decision, I'm sure.

No perfect answers, but small gains are nice when they can be had. Modern natural gas plants combined with the planned utility-scale solar beats the old coal plants hands down. Considering that much of the coal comes from mountain-top removal schemes in the mountains to our north, it's not nice to see our neighbor's mountains levelled so folks can have power, while bragging about the beauty of our own area.

Me? Most of you know I stopped being a grid weenie years ago, but everyone can't/won't do that. At least some of these folks are making progress, especially in and around the liberal bastion of Asheville. Great little city, that, with some of the best micro-brews anywhere. Hard to make good beer with crappy water.

[Plantagenet]

Part of the 'win' is that they've cancelled the 40+ mile new transmission line into South Carolina.

How will they get the natural gas piped in for the power plant? If its coming all the way from Pennsylvania that will take one heck of a long right-of-way for the NG pipeline...you know---maybe the pipeline right-of-way will be even longer than 40 miles. How far is it anyway from the Marcellus shale NG producers in Pennsylvania to the western Caroline Mountains?

Also, CO2 isn't the only pollutant of concern. Many waterways in our western Carolina mountains have elevated mercury levels. For decades, coal-burning plants, especially upwind in the Tennessee Valley, have been releasing emissions that settle in our mountain valleys, depositing heavy metals and acidifying rain, soil and water with sulphur compounds. Natural gas isn't a perfect solution, but will be a major improvement.

Coal is terrible, but NG is no panacea. NG use releases CO2 and there are also large CH4 releases into the atmosphere from the drilling, fracking, piping, storing, etc. of the methane. Its great the Duke will stop polluting their local streams, but your attitude that its a "win" for Duke to dump even more of their CO2 and CH4 pollution into the atmosphere to pollute the world and change the climate of the whole world is exactly the problem with the world today. The climate is changing and we are headed for disaster unless CO2 production is lowered, not raised---and methane releases to the atmosphere need to stopped as well.

Nope---you need more solar and more wind and less NG down there. Thats the only way to reduce CO2 emissions---not increase them as you are promoting.

Cheers!

[Apneaman]

planty, how is ghung commenting on a done deal promoting? Because he pointed out the few local benefits? What about flying to Asia and Europe every year and bragging about it? Isn't that promoting CO2 emissions just to amuse yourself and score a few status points? Don't you Alaska people get fossil fuel royalty payments? That's the real carbon credit eh? Is it enough to cover the yearly plane fare? You seem to be showing much more concern recently regarding AGW. Been reading my links? If you're worried about the dire consequences it's justified. Worrying about "fighting climate change" or reducing emissions is a waste of time - not gonna happen. Small local improvements, like ghung described are the best anyone can hope for at this late hour. Pushing for local representatives to put some resources into preparing for the inevitable consequences - like flood control measures - is where your energies would best be spent.

[Tanada]

NG is basically methane, which itself is a much more powerful greenhouse gas then CO2. Adding just a few parts per BILLION concentrations of methane to the atmosphere increases global warming. While the methane is 100% consumed when burned in the power plant, study after study is now showing that large amounts of methane are being released to the atmosphere during fracking, during NG production at the well, during transport and during storage of the NG.

And did I mention the NG is produced by fracking? The article doesn't mention where the NG for the Duke power plant will come from, but most likely it would be the Marcellus in PA requiring new NG pipelines to built. Congrats to Duke for not building 40 miles of transmission lines, but how many hundreds of miles of NG pipeline will be built?

Yes, this is an improvement over building new coal-fired power plants, but really not by much. NG power plants also cause greenhouse warming by releasing CO2 AND CH4.

Basically estimates range from 1 to 2 percent of natural gas methane leaks into the atmosphere somewhere between the start of drilling the well and the final flue gasses that are released after it is 'burnt'. The thing is while the large power stations have large dedicated staff who are intent on keeping the burners pristine and the catalysts pure so that all the methane is converted into CO2 and H2O that isn't the case in end use. An unfortunate fact is most of the methane burned in the USA doesn't go to large highly maintained facilities, it goes to houses and apartments where it is used for cooking, space heating and water heaters. Most of those appliances are supposed to get at least an annual tune up, but many Americans don't want to 'waste' the money if the appliance is still working acceptably well. In truth most furnaces and water heaters only get a check up when something is not working and the stove is even worse. Older models use pilot lights to ignite both the oven and burners, and it does not take much to cause a pilot light to go out. When they do go out they keep releasing gas at the same rate, but none of that gas it burned. Fortunately the release rate is low enough that methane does not accumulate to dangerous levels, however it does disperse through the air and escape into the outside atmosphere fairly soon after which it is a potent GHG until it breaks down. I have known people who had stoves with malfunctioning pilot lights that refused to spend money on repairs, they just used a wand lighter or matches to ignite the burners when they were ready to cook.

[GHung]

Sure, Plant, the biggest electrical utility holding company in the US is going to build two new natural gas plants somewhere there aren't any major pipelines. Oh,, Look!

http://www.eia.gov/pub/oil_gas/natural_ ... states.gif

Yeah,,, that big blue line cutting through the NC Piedmont, and all that gas is coming from the gulf coast. Do you really think PA gas goes south to NC?

I suggest you quit playing the contrarian and do some homework.

Find pipelines in your area:

https://www.npms.phmsa.dot.gov/PublicViewer/

[Apneaman]

Infrastructure repairs are even more expensive than gas stove and furnace repairs. Probably going to be more expensive to do the repairs than it was to build it. I do not believe it will all get done as budgets shrink and many towns and cities are already on the verge of debt collapse . Here are the two big studies I've heard of.


Methane Leaks From Gas Pipelines Far Exceed Official Estimates, Harvard Study Finds
Boston-area infrastructure loses 2-3 times more gas than state authorities say, adding to evidence of downstream systems' role in greenhouse emissions.

http://insideclimatenews.org/news/20150 ... tudy-finds


Dangerous methane levels detected in D.C.
This map shows 5,800 places where a scientific survey sniffed out evidence of natural gas leaks. The scientists, who drove methane gas-detection equipment along all 1,500 miles of D.C. streets, also pinpointed a dozen manholes with enough gas to explode.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/apps/g/p ... in-dc/744/

[Plantagenet]

the biggest electrical utility holding company in the US is going to build two new natural gas plants somewhere there aren't any major pipelines. Oh,, Look!

http://www.eia.gov/pub/oil_gas/natural_ ... states.gif

Yeah,,, that big blue line cutting through the NC Piedmont

That big blue line is going to Charlotte. The new DukeNG power plants are going to be built near Asheville. Asheville is up in the Mountains---it isn't anywhere near Charlotte. That means a new NG pipeline right-of-way will have to be laid out from the existing pipeline to connect with the new power plants, and a new NG pipeline will be built to connect the Duke NG power plant in Asheville up in the mountains with the gas supply down in the piedmont.

Get it now? Duke is going to have to build a new NG pipeline to Asheville.

I suggest you .... do some homework.

??????

You're the one who doesn't know that Asheville isn't near Charlotte or that a new NG pipeline will have to be built to connect the planned Duke power plants in Asheville with the NG pipeline near Charlotte.

Cheers!

[Plantagenet]

study after study is now showing that large amounts of methane are being released to the atmosphere during fracking, during NG production at the well, during transport and during storage of the NG.

Basically estimates range from 1 to 2 percent of natural gas methane leaks into the atmosphere somewhere between the start of drilling the well and the final flue gasses that are released after it is 'burnt'. The thing is while the large power stations have large dedicated staff who are intent on keeping the burners pristine and the catalysts pure so that all the methane is converted into CO2 and H2O that isn't the case in end use. An unfortunate fact is most of the methane burned in the USA doesn't go to large highly maintained facilities, it goes to houses and apartments where it is used for cooking, space heating and water heaters. Most of those appliances are supposed to get at least an annual tune up, but many Americans don't want to 'waste' the money if the appliance is still working acceptably well. In truth most furnaces and water heaters only get a check up when something is not working and the stove is even worse. Older models use pilot lights to ignite both the oven and burners, and it does not take much to cause a pilot light to go out. When they do go out they keep releasing gas at the same rate, but none of that gas it burned. Fortunately the release rate is low enough that methane does not accumulate to dangerous levels, however it does disperse through the air and escape into the outside atmosphere fairly soon after which it is a potent GHG until it breaks down. I have known people who had stoves with malfunctioning pilot lights that refused to spend money on repairs, they just used a wand lighter or matches to ignite the burners when they were ready to cook.

Yup. This is an important topic. Nobody really knows how much methane is leaking into the atmosphere from NG wells, pipelines, storage tanks, etc. and when NG is so cheap people often aren't very careful with it. As to how much is being lost to the atmosphere at drill sites and during transport, estimates vary widely.

The companies that drill NG report very low leakage rates, but independent scientific studies find much much higher leakage rates for methane. For instance, for the Bakken...

Well operators reported that 0.13 percent of natural gas produced nationwide is vented into the atmosphere or flared, according to a 2010 report by the Government Accountability Office. The GAO noted, however, that estimates from the Environmental Protection Agency and the Western Regional Air Partnership showed volumes as much as "30 times higher" than those reported by industry.

A 30 times higher rate then the 0.13% reported by NG producers would mean about 4% of the methane is being lost.

north-dakota-oil-wells-study-raises-questions-methane-hydrocarbons

The idea that much more methane is leaking into the atmosphere than generally believed is worrisome since Methane is such a powerful greenhouse gas. I just saw a report on PBS where they visited NG pipelines and tank farms and used an infrared camera to spot the methane leaks. In infrared you could see plume after plume of methane going into the air from leaky valves, leaky welds, etc.---none of which were known to the pipeline operator.


Shale oil and NG being stored in storage tank left--same storage tank right photographed in IR, showing big methane plume leaking into the atmosphere from the top.

[GHung]

Plant, you're just a complete fool. There' s natural gas being supplied to the entire Asheville area, and as far west as Sylva, supplying paper mills and other industries. They'll just expand the capacity of existing natural gas pipelines. But what would I know? I just live here.

In May of 2015 Duke Energy announced plans to retire its 376-MW coal-fired power plant in Asheville, close the adjacent ash basin, and modernize its generation and transmission system in the western North and South Carolina area, including the construction of new natural gas-fired and solar electric generation facilities. The Foothills Transmission Line, a proposed 45-mile 230-kV electric transmission line from Asheville into South Carolina, is one phase of this larger Western Carolinas Modernization Project. The Commission understands that the capacity of the natural gas pipeline serving the Asheville area will also be expanded.

http://www.ncuc.commerce.state.nc.us/el ... ssion.html

... and when it comes to telling others they don't know what they're talking about, let's not lose sight of the fact that you're the idiot who suggested they were going to build a pipeline from Pennsylvania, to a place about one state away from the gulf coast. Anyway, I'll not waste my time on someone who doesn't have the character to admit that they are wrong about pretty much everything.

And just in case you missed it; let's not lose sight of the fact that you're the idiot who suggested they were going to build a pipeline from Pennsylvania.

[Plantagenet]

Plant, you're just a complete fool.... you're the idiot .... Anyway, I'll not waste my time on someone who doesn't have the character to admit that they are wrong about pretty much everything.

Then you won't see this link to the news release that Duke Energy is going to spend 5 BILLION DOLLARS to build a NEW GAS PIPELINE between Charlotte and Asheville. Duke just made this announcement 5 days ago. Duke says their proposed NG pipeline will be the first NG pipeline to serve Eastern North Carolina.

Duke Energy acquires Piedmont Natural Gas Company ---joint company will build the first new Natural Gas Pipeline to serve Eastern North Carolina

Duke Energy and Piedmont also are key partners in the $5 billion Atlantic Coast Pipeline that will be the first major natural gas pipeline to serve Eastern North Carolina.
----quoted from the above link

And where does the gas come from that will get to eastern North Carolina via the Atlantic Coast Pipeline Project? Well---the pipeline will be built starting from West Virgina and run southward for 564 miles in total. Gosh---thats just what I was saying isn't it---that a major new NG pipeline will be built.

And where will the NG for that pipeline come from? Gosh....the fact sheet for the ACP says that they will be tapping into new and abundant natural gas supplies from West Virginia and umm...whats that state right next to West Virginia. You know--that state where the Marcellus shale is producing all that NG? Yes...the ACP factsheet says they will be bringing NG from PENNSYLVANIA south to Virginia and North Carolina. Can you imagine that? Its just exactly what I said. Ohmigosh....EVERY SINGLE THING I said was right and everything single thing you said was wrong, and then to top it off you threw a hissy fit complete with ad homs. And all the time you were the one who was wrong about just about everything.

My goodness that was dumb of you. I suggest you re-check your facts and then learn a bit more about this topic. A good place for you to start would be to look at the links in this post. Read the words out loud if that helps you understand what you are reading. Do your homework. The fact sheet below is particularly informative.

atlantic-coast-pipeline to carry gas from Pennsylvania and West Virginia all the way to eastern North Carolina

Gosh ---so now that its clear you are completely wrong with your claim that there is no need for a new NG pipeline between Charlotte and Asheville, and you are totally wrong with your contention that the gas will come from the Gulf on an existing pipeline. And your contention that such a pipeline even already exists borders on the strange and bizarre, considering that you yourself posted a link to a map above that clearly shows there currently is no NG pipeline to eastern North Carolina, and just five days ago Duke announced plans to build the first major NG pipeline to eastern North Carolina.

I suggest you go back and look at your own link and check it out. Even you clearly showed you were wrong, if only you could've remembered what you yourself posted.

To summarize, your bizarre contention that you know for sure that such a pipeline already exists is clearly wrong. That means you are either delusional or a liar, as well as being a fool and an idiot, to borrow your own ad homs.

Now---one last chance---do you have the character to admit that you were wrong about there already being a major NG pipeline to eastern North Carolina and wrong about the gas in the new pipeline being destined for eastern North Carolina coming from the Gulf when its actually coming from West Virginia and Pennsylvania?

Hahahahahahah!

Cheers!

[GHung]

Asheville isn't in eastern NC Plant. My home (west of there) is almost 400 miles from the coast. As I said (and cited) much of western NC already has major gas service, brought in decades ago to supply the paper mills and other industries like the now mostly defunct textile industry. Your strawmen are leading you down a path to insanity, IMO.

But OK; You win, just as ignorance and deflection are generally winning everywhere.

You ignore that there are net benefits to this change-over.

You ignore that Duke isn't building new electrical transmission corridors for this project.

You ignore that Duke isn't going to build a new pipeline for this project, only increasing capacity of the existing pipeline.

You ignore that there are other gains, such as no more waste ponds that leach pollutants into the water sheds, and elimination of heavy metals and sulphur.

You ignore that provably cleaner natural gas teamed with utility-scale solar will make a difference.

Ignorance is bliss, and focusses only on fomenting more ignorance. Yes, as is global ignorance, you and those of your ilk are winning everywhere. I'm done. Thanks for fucking up another thread, Plant. That's what you do.

I'm betting you live alone.

[drwater]

Natgas is vastly superior to coal for GHG emissions. There are all kinds of effective technologies for finding natgas leaks. Put a price on carbon, and industry will promptly fix the leaks and losses. In addition, carbon capture and sequestration become economical relatively quickly for natgas with a price on carbon, while it's almost hopeless for coal. Here's to a price on carbon with more combined cycle natgas and nuclear power plants in the Southeast, where they both make a lot of sense.

[Plantagenet]

much of western NC already has major gas service

Yes, there is local NG service. There are existing small residential scale NG systems serving parts of Asheville and some other areas in western North Carolina. But these local NG delivery systems are too small to even show up on the map you yourself linked to showing major gas pipelines. Think about it----why is no major gas pipeline shown going to western NC? HINT its because there is no major gas pipeline into this area.

The existing residential scale network doesn't even have full coverage within its local service area, and it certainly couldn't supply the huge NG-fired electrical plants the Duke is going to build.

Thats why Duke is building the new pipeline system to bring huge amounts of NG from Pennsylvania. It takes a LOT of NG to run NG electrical plants.

Personally, I would rather see Duke install wind or solar power instead of NG, but then I hate to see CO2 emissions go up anywhere because of the global warming problem.


I'd rather see more wind and solar and less NG to reduce CO2 emissions

Cheers!

[GHung]

Ashland is in Kentucky.

[Plantagenet]

Gosh...you found a typo.

Congrats!

[GHung]

Actually, I found an idiot. As I posted earlier, and as you chose to ignore, Duke has indicated to the NC Public Service Commission that it intends to expand existing capacity to the area, not build a new pipeline. ANYTHING YOU POST AFTER THAT IS AN ATTEMPT TO DIVERT ATTENTION FROM THAT FACT BECAUSE YOU CAN'T HAVE AN HONEST DEBATE ABOUT ANYTHING.

Besides, I already said you win, Plant. Ignoramuses usually do, in their own minds. Then they go off and giggle insanely to themselves, declaring victory while supporting more irrelevancies. Enjoy. You worked hard at it. And I get no satisfaction from interacting with folks like you, excepting, perhaps, the knowledge that you are stuck with yourself.

[Plantagenet]

I already said you win, Plant.

OK.

Lets just leave it there until you calm down.

Cheers!