Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Liebig's Law of the Minimum Pt. 1

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 11 Dec 2010, 15:21:02

Carlhole wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Carlhole wrote:Look, it's a simple point I'm making: If you think that peak oil doom will inevitably lead to civilizational collapse, there is no way that governmental policies of any sort can possibly forestall such an event.

Many doomers don't care about it.
They are already haggling about, how future more sustainable systems which are going to emerge will look like.


There's another capitulation. It wasn't all that long ago that EU would not tolerate the slightest equivocation about the certainy of humanity's imminent demise.

I was never claiming certainty or even likelihood of humanity demise.
That is Cid's business here.

I was specifically claiming near certainty of modern technological civilization demise.

These are not the same, needless to say.
User avatar
EnergyUnlimited
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7342
Joined: Mon 15 May 2006, 03:00:00

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby Carlhole » Sat 11 Dec 2010, 16:39:55

Wrong again. Shit is shit, no matter how you spell it.

And the political rantsters around here are full of it if they also considers themselves doomers.
Carlhole
 

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby Pretorian » Sat 11 Dec 2010, 20:09:28

Carlhole wrote:
eXpat wrote:I actually took the time to read the full article.


And what did you think of MY comment?



i didnt see any comments there. but i think this is wonderfull idea


------------------So if you took a round-trip from London to Sydney, that adds up to 10 tonnes of carbon, in which case you are asked to donate £40 to help prevent the birth of one child in Africa.--------------------
Pretorian
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Somewhere there

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby joewp » Sat 11 Dec 2010, 21:31:18

I love these comic relief threads.
"Think the Earth is finite? Think again" :lol: :lol: :lol:
Joe P. joeparente.com
"Only when the last tree is cut; only when the last river is polluted; only when the last fish is caught; only then will they realize that you cannot eat money." - Cree Indian Proverb
User avatar
joewp
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2054
Joined: Tue 05 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Keeping dry in South Florida

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby Homesteader » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 04:40:54

scas wrote:We are "wrong about everything and misanthropic". Hard to argue with that.

He is right that resources are fluid and have a past and a future.

The past of oil is organisms and sunlight. Their future is in atmospheric gases.

The past of soil nutrients is rock and dead organisms. Their future is at the bottom of the ocean and in our landfills.

The past of arable land is forests and soil ecosystems. The future of that arable land is.....under concrete. Or desert.

The past of our freshwater is in glaciers and groundwater. The future is in the ocean.

The past of organisms is life and evolution. The future is extinction.



That is simply a beautiful encapsulation of the human species effect on the planet, and ultimately itself.

scas gets my vote for the best new member of 2010.

Damn, I wish I had written that. I'm gonna go open a beer and give thanks to the fact of living another day with electricity, central heat and food in the fridge from all over the planet.
"The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…"
Sir Winston Churchill

Beliefs are what people fall back on when the facts make them uncomfortable.
User avatar
Homesteader
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1856
Joined: Thu 12 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Economic Nomad

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby careinke » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 06:30:20

Carlhole wrote:
PrestonSturges wrote:It's the point I was making the other day - there are AGW and Malthusian doomers, and there are the old school Helter Skelter race war paranoid survivalist scanning the sky for UN helicopters. The overlap of the Tea Party and doomerism is not AGW, it's belief in conspiracies like Climategate, Obama's birth certificate, evolution, ACORN, slavery reparations etc that are all supposedly multigenerational global conspiracies controlled by the Illuminauti. And they share their love of AK-47s and Patrick Swayze.


There's a lot of nonsense.

Look, it's a simple point I'm making: If you think that peak oil doom will inevitably lead to civilizational collapse, there is no way that governmental policies of any sort can possibly forestall such an event.

Therefore, all these Obama bashing posts and all these Tea Party posts are essentially saying peak oil doom is unimportant. Anyone who continually throws up Obama bashing posts or Tea Party posts is implying that he does not believe that we are under any threat of extinction due to resource shortages or overshoot. It's that simple.

You can say outright that you are an energy cornucopian or you can imply it. It really doesn't matter.


Your right it's a simple point you are making: If you think that peak oil doom will inevitably lead to civilizational collapse, there is no way that governmental policies of any sort can possibly forestall such an event.

Therefore, all these Tea Party Bashing bashing posts and all these Tax the rich posts are essentially saying peak oil doom is unimportant. Anyone who continually throws up Tea Party bashing posts or Tax the Evil Corporation posts is implying that he does not believe that we are under any threat of extinction due to resource shortages or overshoot. It's that simple.

You can say outright that you are an energy cornucopian or you can imply it. It really doesn't matter.

Your argument is stupid no mater what side you are looking from.
Cliff (Start a rEVOLution, grow a garden)
User avatar
careinke
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 4668
Joined: Mon 01 Jan 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby Pretorian » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 06:38:49

Politics are entertaining. Entertainment for humans is as important as food and arguably more important than sex ( considering those who not yet or already not participating).
Pretorian
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Somewhere there

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby Xenophobe » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 15:05:50

eXpat wrote:Nonsense and idioticy have no political party, they can come equally from Republicans, Democrats, Communists, Torys, Labor, Anarchists, Fascists, etc.


I find myself in the surprising position of agreeing with Expat. The delusions of Doom don't appear to be concentrated within any political perspective any more than, say, schizophrenia, depression, or perhaps a bipolar disorder?
User avatar
Xenophobe
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Fri 06 Aug 2010, 21:13:08

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 16:39:41

one thing that I've found that is truly infinite is the hatred for humans that only certain humans can bring. Yeah I'm talking about the doomers, the hate they possess for their fellow struggling ape knows no bounds.... :( 8O :cry:
User avatar
Serial_Worrier
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1548
Joined: Thu 05 Jun 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby Xenophobe » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 16:49:22

Serial_Worrier wrote:one thing that I've found that is truly infinite is the hatred for humans that only certain humans can bring. Yeah I'm talking about the doomers, the hate they possess for their fellow struggling ape knows no bounds.... :( 8O :cry:


Such hate might be a requirement of the disorder? And it might very well be internalized, more of a self esteem issue perhaps? Watching peers get ahead in the BAU which a given Doomer may have already failed at means the cognitive dissonance might achieve a level requiring the downfall of everyone, so that the concept of ones individual failure doesn't come up?

Obviously, if a Doomer can even grow a single tomato in a window box of a 200 sf shanty, this can be used to show the superiority of the Doomer outlook....growing a single tomato being a more valuable skill in the Doomer world construct than collecting an advanced college degree, putting it to use, acquiring professional accolades and visible wealth, the American dream, etc etc. Rather than accept the fact that one doesn't have the natural ability to succeed in a given system, rather than find another, less successful place within the system, the Doomer simply changes the system to one which allows THEM to be the success. The power of a single tomato.....
User avatar
Xenophobe
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Fri 06 Aug 2010, 21:13:08

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby peripato » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 21:26:24

Reading that article and the loony tune posts hereabouts, it seems beyond doubt that cornucopians are mistaking the one-time fossil fuel bonanza for brains.
User avatar
peripato
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1335
Joined: Tue 03 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Reality

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby Homesteader » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 22:27:50

peripato wrote:Reading that article and the loony tune posts hereabouts, it seems beyond doubt that cornucopians are mistaking the one-time fossil fuel bonanza for brains.


Yep, to quote someone on this board; You can't fix stupid. Stupid thinks that when technology (or fossil fuels) makes them faster and more powerful that they are smart and correct.
"The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…"
Sir Winston Churchill

Beliefs are what people fall back on when the facts make them uncomfortable.
User avatar
Homesteader
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1856
Joined: Thu 12 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Economic Nomad

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby rangerone314 » Sun 12 Dec 2010, 22:41:53

I'm not sure that even the greater interdependency of cultures today means that peak oil destroying one culture will necessarily destroy another. Of course government policies will have an effect on the outcome.

If I am a doomer, it is simply because I don't believe the best-case scenarios where the governments do everything that is right and everything turns out well. People tend to make situations get worse rather than better. Humanity is one of the few species that if on a boat in the middle of the ocean would lack the wisdom to not shoot holes in the bottom of the boat.

If there are countries that can self-suffice or adapt and have enough isolation, they will survive. I don't agree that if the world is in chaos and someplace like Egypt implodes, that swarms of refugees will manage to travel thousands of miles to Sweden or something.

Most likely, people will be too preoccupied tearing their own countries apart and fighting their elites (and elites's paid bodyguards) to worry about what is going on 3,000 miles away.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
User avatar
rangerone314
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Wed 03 Dec 2008, 04:00:00
Location: Maryland

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby Oakley » Mon 13 Dec 2010, 01:05:59

It seems to me that there is some thinking on this board that it is inconsistent to both place a high value on freedom, including freedom in economic transactions, and to also think that we are facing the end of the energy driven industrial age and a related dieoff.

Free markets cannot magically defy the laws of nature. One misconception relates to "technology" as if we can invent our way out of disaster. Technology is knowledge applied to resources. If you don't have knowledge then you don't have technology, but just resources, and if you don't have resources, you don't have technology, but just knowledge. So lacking knowledge, for a long period of human history we walked around on large quantities of resources without the ability to use them. And after they are gone, we will again be unable to use them, so any knowledge of how to use them will quickly expire.

Technology cannot possible bail us out in a resource scarce future because one of the two requirements for technology will be missing.

The idea that we collectively can defy the laws of nature is just as absurd as the idea that free market inventiveness will defy the laws of nature. The political arrangements that exist will only affect who will likely survive and who will likely die. With the collectivist arrangements that now exist, it is more likely that the average man and the poor will not be survivors, but those who occupy the seats of power will. If we were to throw off the chains of slavery that bind most of the world population, then the survival of the fittest would more effectively operate and those who have the capacity to individually and in small groups navigate the future will have a better chance than the thugs who now occupy the seats of power and use that power to plunder and control the majority.
"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence" Thomas H Huxley
Oakley
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 355
Joined: Mon 11 May 2009, 01:23:22

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby americandream » Mon 13 Dec 2010, 02:17:09

Oakley wrote:The idea that we collectively can defy the laws of nature is just as absurd as the idea that free market inventiveness will defy the laws of nature. The political arrangements that exist will only affect who will likely survive and who will likely die. With the collectivist arrangements that now exist, it is more likely that the average man and the poor will not be survivors, but those who occupy the seats of power will.


The above sounds very much like the fit surviving. In a paradigm light on civil rules of engagement, cunning, camouflage, strategy and plain old duplicity tend to distinguish the survivors from those who fall by the wayside.

There is of course the other issue of course of whther such a regression is possible the deeper the level of sentience and reason and an evolving understanding of cause and effect.
americandream
Permanently Banned
 
Posts: 8650
Joined: Mon 18 Oct 2004, 03:00:00

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby peripato » Mon 13 Dec 2010, 04:32:38

Oakley wrote:The idea that we collectively can defy the laws of nature is just as absurd as the idea that free market inventiveness will defy the laws of nature. The political arrangements that exist will only affect who will likely survive and who will likely die. With the collectivist arrangements that now exist, it is more likely that the average man and the poor will not be survivors, but those who occupy the seats of power will. If we were to throw off the chains of slavery that bind most of the world population, then the survival of the fittest would more effectively operate and those who have the capacity to individually and in small groups navigate the future will have a better chance than the thugs who now occupy the seats of power and use that power to plunder and control the majority.

Except in certain works of fiction, how many descendants of the rich and powerful of whatever civilisation collapsed before us, (assuming they know who they are), are enjoying the fruits of their ancestors' wealth and privilege?
User avatar
peripato
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1335
Joined: Tue 03 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Reality

Re: Think the Earth is finite? Think again

Unread postby Pretorian » Mon 13 Dec 2010, 06:07:45

peripato wrote:
Oakley wrote:The idea that we collectively can defy the laws of nature is just as absurd as the idea that free market inventiveness will defy the laws of nature. The political arrangements that exist will only affect who will likely survive and who will likely die. With the collectivist arrangements that now exist, it is more likely that the average man and the poor will not be survivors, but those who occupy the seats of power will. If we were to throw off the chains of slavery that bind most of the world population, then the survival of the fittest would more effectively operate and those who have the capacity to individually and in small groups navigate the future will have a better chance than the thugs who now occupy the seats of power and use that power to plunder and control the majority.

Except in certain works of fiction, how many descendants of the rich and powerful of whatever civilisation collapsed before us, (assuming they know who they are), are enjoying the fruits of their ancestors' wealth and privilege?


the end is imminent, for everybody and with no exeption-- from a bacterial cyst that was waiting in the ice for 5 mln years to the Universe itself, neverthless the ride toward the end might be interesting and enjoyable
Pretorian
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Somewhere there

PreviousNext

Return to Peak Oil Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 60 guests

cron