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LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 5

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Beery1 » Mon 19 Aug 2013, 08:45:28

Proud to be included in a thread of "skepticism for skepticism's sake" when there's so much "gullibility for gullibility's sake" happening.

So gullibility wins! Yay.

The bar is now so low that the only concept that can still be laughed off the site is ancient space aliens. Or at least I hope the bar is still that high.

I guess I should just try to be supportive of people who are trying (and succeeding) to make peakoil.com a laughing stock.
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Beery1 » Mon 19 Aug 2013, 08:56:00

Beery1 wrote:...Rossi's reputation is that of a convicted fraudster and jailbird. The following are Rossi's reputation and credentials: He was convicted of investor fraud in the Petroldragon affair, resulting in massive environmental pollution and damage. He was arrested in Italy for illegal transactions in gold. He lied and cheated to the DOD and took over a million dollars for thermoelectric devices some of which never existed and others of which never worked. No working device was ever shown to the DOD....


How is this not relevant to the ECAT discussion? This is not "skepticism for skepticism's sake" - it's skepticism for the sake of rationality.
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 19 Aug 2013, 09:02:53

It would be better for all if arguments on this site were based on facts instead of opinions. Creating straw men and then knocking them down is not debate, it is pretend debate. Discounting everything you do not believe in because you don't believe in it is not debate, it using skepticism as a way of denigrating other people because they believe differently than you do.

If you have evidence to support your arguments then USE IT. Otherwise your argument is no more valid than a 3 year old who believes what he wants to believe because he wants it to be true. Peak oil is based on SCIENCE. Science is based on falsifiable hypotheses. If your opinion can be backed up by scientific evidence then do so. Otherwise it is just skepticism for skepticisms sake and derails discussion of the topic of every thread it is used upon.
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Beery1 » Mon 19 Aug 2013, 09:10:29

Again...

Rossi's reputation is that of a convicted fraudster and jailbird. The following are Rossi's reputation and credentials: He was convicted of investor fraud in the Petroldragon affair, resulting in massive environmental pollution and damage. He was arrested in Italy for illegal transactions in gold. He lied and cheated to the DOD and took over a million dollars for thermoelectric devices some of which never existed and others of which never worked. No working device was ever shown to the DOD.


This is not my opinion. This is fact, yet the post (of which the above text made up the majority) was moved here. If I get too caught up in character assassination, by all means move the offending post and give me a warning. But moving a post that is MOSTLY filled with factual information is, I feel, going too far.

And it would be nice if moderators held 'free energy' proponents to the same standard they hold skeptics. I'm getting a bit tired of seeing people claim that this technology or that technology holds the key to the future when nothing material has been shown to work, and we're years, perhaps decades away from a prototype. Such technologies are the equivalent of me drawing a concept on a napkin at a bar, yet they are treated as if they are serious. Posting information is one thing, but raving on for pages and pages about how it's going to be the solution to all humanity's problems is quite another

I fear that peakoil.com is in imminent danger of becoming a site for the tin hat brigade. The more pie-in-the-sky articles that get a free ride here, the more we open the whole concept of peak oil to ridicule. Is it a coincidence that some of the most vociferous proponents of 'free energy' and 'perpetual motion machines' who love to post to the Energy Technology forum are also peak oil deniers? I don't know, but it looks fishy to me.
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 19 Aug 2013, 12:22:06

Beery, do you have links to back up your accusations? If so freaking post them when you make the accusation. Anyone can make up a quote of anything, if your knowledge is so grounded in rock solid facts you should be capable of doing the world a favor and cite your source.

I didn't create this thread to pick on you or anyone else and if you keep accusing the staff of selective action you are violating the code of conduct of this board. If you have a problem with me then PM me or any other moderator or admin you wish and continue your complaints there, not in a public thread.

Just to be clear, if you can not cite your source then you are just making accusations or assertions without evidence. If you can cite your facts and do so then once in a while is enough, repeating the same message over and over is NOT an approved way of discussing any topic on this board.
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Beery1 » Mon 19 Aug 2013, 12:50:31

It's not as if the information is difficult to find. Everyone who knows anything about Rossi knows that what I've said about him is true. It's not even hidden in some esoteric rare books or offline court records - it's even on Wikipedia, for goodness sake:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Rossi_%28entrepreneur%29

He then founded Petroldragon, a company for developing oil from waste, which collapsed in the 1990s amidst allegations of dumping toxic waste, and accusations of tax fraud. Its assets were seized, together with Rossi's personal assets, and Rossi was arrested pending trial. Rossi spent four years in prison working on his legal defense in 56 trials, 5 of which ended in convictions related to tax fraud... The government of Lombardy spent over forty million euros to dispose of the 70,000 tonnes of toxic waste that Petroldragon had improperly dumped.


In the US Rossi started the consulting firm Leonardo Technologies, Inc. (LTI). He secured a defense contract to evaluate the potential of generating electricity from waste heat by using thermoelectric generators... Rossi sent 27 thermoelectric devices for evaluation to the Engineer Research and Development Center; 19 of these did not produce any electricity at all. The remaining units produced less than 1 watt each, instead of the expected 800–1000 watt.


In January 2011 Andrea Rossi and Professor Sergio Focardi claimed to have successfully demonstrated commercially viable cold fusion in a device called an Energy Catalyzer, although in an interview Rossi claimed that his Energy Catalyzer does not work on the basis of cold fusion, but weak [force] nuclear reactions. The international patent application received an unfavorable international preliminary report on patentability because it seemed to "offend against the generally accepted laws of physics and established theories" and to overcome this problem the application should have contained either experimental evidence or a firm theoretical basis in current scientific theories. Journalists were not allowed to examine the core of the reactor, and there is uncertainty about the viability of the invention.


Sources

Krivit, Steven B. (7 March 2012). "Report #5: Rossi's Profitable Career in Science" (http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2012/Report5-Rossis-Profitable-Career-in-Science.shtml).

"Riciclaggio rifiuti tossici Assolto Andrea Rossi". Archiviostorico.corriere.it. (http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2004 ... 7020.shtml).

Vaglia, Aldo (7 October 2011). "Rischia più uno scienziato che un ladro". Valle Sabia News (http://www.vallesabbianews.it/notizie-it/Rischia-pi%C3%B9-uno-scienziato-che-un-ladro-17407.html). (English: "Most likely a scientist and a thief").

John Huston, Chris Wyatt, Chris Nichols, Michael J. Binder, and Franklin H. Holcomb (September 2004). Application of Thermoelectric Devices to Fuel Cell Power Generation: Demonstration and Evaluation. Construction Engineering Research Laboratory in Champaign, Illinois, part of Engineer Research and Development Center (http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA432046).

Lisa Zyga (2011-01-20), "Italian Scientists claim to have demonstrated cold fusion", Physorg.com (http://phys.org/news/2011-01-italian-scientists-cold-fusion-video.html)


I mean, it's my contention that wind blows, grass grows and the sky is blue. Do I need to cite sources for that too?
Last edited by Beery1 on Mon 19 Aug 2013, 13:29:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 19 Aug 2013, 13:00:41

Tanada wrote:It would be better for all if arguments on this site were based on facts instead of opinions.
...
If your opinion can be backed up by scientific evidence then do so.
...
Otherwise it is just skepticism for skepticisms sake and derails discussion of the topic of every thread it is used upon.
"Skepticism for Skepticism's Sake" is my definition of Science.

The problem here is we have people endlessly repeating opinions after their flawed thinking and factual errors have been pointed out and not defended.
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 19 Aug 2013, 13:16:27

Beery1 wrote:I mean, it's my contention that wind blows, grass grows and the sky is blue. Do I need to cite sources for that too?
Legend has it that a CalTech Pyhsics PhD candidate was asked at his oral exam "why is the sky blue?" and flunked it.
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Beery1 » Mon 19 Aug 2013, 13:19:34

Keith_McClary wrote:"Skepticism for Skepticism's Sake" is my definition of Science.


Mine too. We shouldn't be asked for 'reasons to be skeptical' - skepticism should be the default in any place where truth is sought. Non-skeptics are the ones who need to cite reasons for their position.

The problem here is we have people endlessly repeating opinions after their flawed thinking and factual errors have been pointed out and not defended.


And my issue with it is that with all this chaff clogging up the site, it becomes virtually impossible to sort the technological advances that have real potential from all these ridiculous scams and pipe dreams.
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Stinky Bill » Mon 19 Aug 2013, 17:17:43

I'll admit to being obsessive and incredibly annoying but I do have a serious point to make.
There are a great many outright scams taking place in the energy field.
There is obviously an urgent need to find alternatives for fossil fuels.
Unfortunately this need is being taken advantage of by some folks that were born out of wedlock.

This is not a victimless crime.
There ARE victims and it's NOT a crime (it should be though)
It is incredibly hard to fight against these scams. The architects of such schemes will threaten the whistle-blower and any publication/forum that dares to be critical.

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing


I'm doing something.
Care to join me? :)
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Stinky Bill » Mon 19 Aug 2013, 17:43:15

Hydro Fusion Ltd was founded in 2011 and is a UK-based company specializing in a number of areas related to energy production, including marketing and sales of ECAT-powered products.

The world’s limited supply and addiction to dirty fossil fuels demands a green sustainable solution and with the arrival of the ECAT-technology, these major environmental and economical issues may be solved once and for all. With ECATs becoming available to the wider public in 2012/2013, the global community is entering a new era of abundant clean energy.

Hydro Fusion Ltd is truly honored by Andrea Rossi’s request to appoint its domain ECAT.com as the Official ECAT Website of Andrea Rossi, Leonardo Corporation and the future home for all official ECAT-related information.

Hydro Fusion is Andrea Rossi’s North European Licensee Group Branch, playing an important role in the commercialization of both ECAT-plants and ECAT-home units.

Hydro Fusion’s headquarter is located in London with an office branch in Sweden, Stockholm near the Stockholm Central Station. See the Contact Page for more information.


ECAT Business
On behalf of Andrea Rossi and Leonardo Corporation, ECAT.com is currently discussing business collaborations and other ventures with interested parties in the following areas:
Investments -Technology licensing - Third party applications - Reselling - Online affiliates http://ecataffiliate.com/
- See more at: http://ecat.com/ecat-business#sthash.yG ... dpuf/quote]


I dunno, perhaps I should stop being a sceptic and just let them carry on building theirhouse of cards
business enterprise?
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Stinky Bill » Mon 19 Aug 2013, 19:25:04

Defkalion for F***S sake!
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Defkaliondefkaliong.pdf

Defkalion Green Technologies has taken the Andrea Rossi E-Cat and created its products
around it. Our products produce heat only – not electricity. Our current product line
ranges from kW units (5 - 30kW) to MW units (1.15 - 3.45 MW). Building around the E-Cat, we have developed a complex unity of machinery and electronics that comprise the product, which we have named Hyperion.

Licensing of all Hyperion products is in progress. A fully functioning 1MW heat producing reactor will be
inaugurated in Q4 of 2011.

A streamlined approach to international sales has been selected for negotiations in order to meet the great international demand and to avoid potential bottlenecks.
Defkalion will sell the rights to manufacture products while the kernel (E-Cat) shall be produced by Praxen and shipped in plug-and-play format to the industrial/commercial/distribution partner according to the demand.
We believe the responsibility to extend market coverage should rest with each licensee
All products and transfer-of-knowledge shall be licensed from Defkalion.

Defkalion will:
Sell rights to manufacture Hyperion products under license for a fixed price
Receive a fixed price per product sold, as a royalty
Sell its transfer-of-knowledge regarding the production, technical, support and maintenance for a fixed price
Supply the industrial secret in a plug-and-play black-box
National exclusivity depends on the country since the larger the country is, the more difficult it will be to meet the expected large demand from the onset.


I'd like to know why the moderators feel this thread deserves to be given such a derogatory label.

This is APPARENTLY* fraud on a global scale and the law needs to be changed to put a stop to such schemes.

* apparently if I preface my opinion with apparently things will be OK :wink:
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Stinky Bill » Tue 20 Aug 2013, 01:50:28

Get your FAIRY DUST here http://www.josephnewman.com/
On March 28, 1993, I, Joseph Newman - fed up, went to Washington D.C., -
to be a martyr and to give my life for humanity.
GOD in essence told me to "cool it," through two people 1,000 miles apart
the same day and approximately the same time.
And that "God would get YOU - the people -
to bring forth this revolutionary energy technology".

SPEED IS POWER
Speed is very important in a collision.
If you double the speed of a car,
you increase its force of impact four times.
If you triple the speed, the impact is nine times as great.
Accordingly, the Newman Energy Machine in principle
produces unlimited speed: unlimited power!

Newman Energy Machine can accomplish that ... and much more.
In fact, the technology can be used to provide abundant, non-polluting,
inexpensive electromagnetic energy to power the world.

No more water or energy shortages - anywhere on the planet.
No more fossil-fuel-related pollution.
No more skyrocketing energy costs.
No more global warming caused by the use of hydrocarbon fuels.
No more nuclear reactor wastes.
No more coal-burning power plants.

This technology will provide abundant, inexpensive, non-polluting energy
to power homes, factories, automobiles, ships, planes, appliances ...
in short, the entire world can utilize this revolutionary technology.

Sounds a lot like LENR :-D
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Stinky Bill » Tue 20 Aug 2013, 08:25:50

Oh what a horrible old sceptic I am.
I mean........where's the harm?

http://translate.google.com/translate?s ... ai2013.pdf

Page 1
Letter dated 22 , 2013, updated on 29 May 2013
To the interested parties of the E-Cat 1 MW community project Ladies and Gentlemen, Dear Friends, We are happy to inform you about the latest news on the E-Cat technology! Scientific tests published! This day (May 18) we obtained the information from Andrea Rossi, the announced that the long- th scientific tests since November 2012 by eleven professors from four international Universities were conducted in the laboratory in Ferrara, are now open to the public - and they see exceptionally well and is now officially confirm the previously announced results of e- Cat technology. A summary of the research report we have placed on http://www.borderlands.de/Links/E- Cat-HT third party Bericht.pdf . We also publish a detailed discussion on the NET- Journal No. 5/6, 2013, which is about mid-June 2013 appear. These research results are the E-Cat technology necessary Increase sales for the 1 MW plants (and later the 10-kW home E-Cats) give. Level of 1 MW community project We are happy to report to you on the state of the 1-MW community project. Until the end of May at We received Interessensbezeugungen for Franken/280 '000 € 350,000. That's a lot, but enough not to reach the limit of CHF 700,000, we need to ensure that the Small investors own more than 50% of such a system. The end of May we are holding talks with several Swiss companies who may be interested in the installation of 1 MW plant and could muster the required balance of CHF 600,000. Combination of the power amplifier with the E-Cat technology We now have a new project that can help the amortization or the gain to make a 1-MW system even more attractive. A. Rossi was already informed about it. He finds the project very interesting, it wants to leave the licensees to be active here. The beginning of May we were with some entrepreneurs with a German company called Lei- performance amplifiers offers. There we were shown a demo (as already at our Frankfurt Congress on 1/2 December 2012), in which 200 W input power through a power amplifier to 2 kW output power were (two 1-kW halogen lamp) placed, ie: the Ten times! The company does not sell directly power amplifier, but licenses for the installation of Power amplifier in existing products (for example, heaters, electric cars, etc., the Range order can be tenfold!). The German company was also a well-known German cal gain transformer company for 2 - and 3-kW to build power amplifier (later also larger). Would be more such performance amplifier with the 1 MW E-Cat plant combined, would 167 kW to the power required for the operation of the E-Cat-conditioning at 17 kW reduce ren! Hartmut Dobler, CEO of E-Cat Germany GmbH, had calculated that with a 1-MW System with 50% load, and 1/6 Current operating normally with power costs 170,000 euros be expected annually. Else besides the ecological operation of the 1 MW plant which represents a significant expense item. These costs could on by the power amplifier tenth, that is to be lowered to 17,000 euros. It is obvious that if there
Page 2
we are able to purchase this license, a 1-MW plant would pay for itself quickly. For Kleininvesto- reindeer, which participate in the 1-MW community project, which would mean that their annual Return would multiply! The idea is that the 1 MW plant community with the same conductor equip stungsverstärkern so interested in buying a 1 MW plant in several Benefit terms. Our company TransAltec or Vetropa AG has now been an option for the license of the Lei- stungsverstärkers concerned in combination with the E-Cat technology. The license will cost 0.4 million EUR / CHF 0.5 million, and then another piece of licenses must be delivered, but the whole calculated nevertheless. We now hope that you will help to fund this License (E-Cat License) with, by the way, for all German-speaking countries of Europe apply. This means that the license holder may then these Sublicenses sell. Who invests, receives returns! To summarize: We now have expressions of interest for the 1-MW joint project in the amount of 350,000 Franken/280 000 euros, but still need 350,000 Franken/280 000 € for the 1-MW community project as such and in addition 500,000 Franken/400 000 euros for the Stock of the power amplifier for combination with the E-Cat-technology, so the already promised sum total of 850,000 still Fr./680 000 euros. We will of course appeal to even more circles that have no Interessensbe- sent beliefs. However, it goes without saying that any investor interested in should be to increase here, because he also achieved higher returns. The updated questionnaire we have the two possibilities mentioned separately. We ask that you by no later than fill in an increase in interest by the end of June! If the funds are not sufficient for both projects, we will be with the 1 MW Community start system. The updated questionnaire, see http://www.transaltec.ch / pdfs_aso / demo e-Cat.pdf The updated information sheet on the 1-MW community project, see http://www.borderlands.de / Links / E-Cat-G project D.pdf Information meeting on 6 July 2013 We are also happy about the fact that we inform you on 6 July at the hotel "Mercure" in Stuttgart from 13 - 18 clock an information session for E-Cat technology and other technologies through- result, coupled with demos of some equipment. It would be nice if you could attend. But we ask you beforehand a response to this letter, so that we can make progress. The program and registration form can be found shortly on http://www.borderlands.de under Schedule. Sincerely, Adolf and Inge Schneider
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Stinky Bill » Tue 20 Aug 2013, 16:34:29

Rune has gone very quiet.

Any comment to make on the Great Ecat Swindle? :evil:
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 01 Oct 2014, 10:03:59

I split this thread off a little over a year ago because I thought I saw a trend in messages around here. This week I had an offline conversation that pretty much sums up why I think we few act and react the way we do. I figured if I put it up here you all might think its worth giving me an argument about :-D

Tanada wrote:We are a small group in the grand scheme of things and bound to rub each other the wrong way from time to time. I started a whole thread on the Hot Potato idea last winter or maybe last year about people being contrary just for the sake of being contrary. I think for some people who feel alone in their beliefs it is a way of drawing attention to themselves, a way of creating a feeling of community.

Many of the people here were social outsiders growing up, nerds, dorks, whatever the insult of the generation they grew up in was. If you think of PO.com as a condensed version of a social experiment you will see we tend to fall into patterns based on our self perceived social status and political inclinations.

Hows that for a self serving psychobabble statement lol!
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 01 Oct 2014, 10:25:44

Okay I admit it, I was called lots of names as a kid and picked last for teams.

Anyone else?
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 01 Oct 2014, 10:37:30

I have no idea Tanada? But I do appreciate the resurrection, especially of Berry's various posts above. He can be opinionated, gruff, irritating, and even cruel but he has a very good point.

"Mine too. We shouldn't be asked for 'reasons to be skeptical' - skepticism should be the default in any place where truth is sought. Non-skeptics are the ones who need to cite reasons for their position."

Ecat and Rossi have always been carnival acts. What is not so obvious are the green scams that have slowly but surely become part of the American tech scene. Moore's Law is busted, the Iputz has failed to bring on the singularity, and Musk will never make it to the moon.
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 01 Oct 2014, 11:15:43

Stinky Bill wrote:Any comment to make on the Great Ecat Swindle? :evil:
Rossi-Ecat and defkalion seem to have faded away.

PESN doesn't have much on cold fusion lately, although they have this:
http://pesn.com/2014/09/22/9602536_Stre ... or-Theory/
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Re: Skepticism for Skepticisms sake! (merged) Pt. 1

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 01 Oct 2014, 11:28:32

pstarr wrote:I have no idea Tanada? But I do appreciate the resurrection, especially of Berry's various posts above. He can be opinionated, gruff, irritating, and even cruel but he has a very good point.

"Mine too. We shouldn't be asked for 'reasons to be skeptical' - skepticism should be the default in any place where truth is sought. Non-skeptics are the ones who need to cite reasons for their position."

Ecat and Rossi have always been carnival acts. What is not so obvious are the green scams that have slowly but surely become part of the American tech scene. Moore's Law is busted, the Iputz has failed to bring on the singularity, and Musk will never make it to the moon.



Certainly science starts with Skepticism, but the for skepticism's sake I am referring too are those who attack well established facts just to stir up trouble or pretend the facts are not well established. The split that started this thread was about cold fusion because Rune was posting links supporting his POV while other members were not.

Cold fusion is not the only topic around here where this kind of thing happens, global warming is a near daily favorite with certain members regurgitating the same argument over and over in an effort to wear down the other side. New data is ignored because the hardliners on both sides are set in their opinions and facts will not sway them a single millimeter.
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