LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

[Alcassin]

Argument from authority.
Show me one working device that's not connected to the electric grid. Then maybe I may lose some reservations, but I have got more of them while reading your "coverage". Creationists watch "The Flintstones" if it were documentary, and you watch "The Jetsons" in the same fashion.

The scam hypothesis isn't absurd, we have huge hype about the stuff, that's all. Moreover I wrote that I think many people like Piantelli have a benign faith in those things. I'm rather keen on thinking that there are people who really believe it, some bad scientists, just like in homeopathy, and others are pathological scammers and liars - like Rossi. Faith and ignorance are just a good ground for frauds.

[Rune]

Argument from authority.
Show me one working device that's not connected to the electric grid. Then maybe I may lose some reservations...

So far we an effect with highly exothermic properties that are not well understood, as Dr. Nagel explained.

Operational prototypes are forthcoming from Defkalion in July/August and Leonardo in October 2012. In the meantime, this thread follows developments in LENR whatever they may be.

Why is this so hard for everyone here to understand?

[Rune]

When you go up against "Carlhole" you know you're going to lose.

[Alcassin]

When you go up against "Carlhole" you know you're going to lose.

Humbleness and modesty by a true believer.

[EnergyUnlimited]

Operational prototypes are forthcoming from Defkalion in July/August and Leonardo in October 2012. In the meantime, this thread follows developments in LENR whatever they may be.

I thought that Leonardo is already selling such prototypes... to phantom military customers

[Rune]

Rossi's Blog

Dear Andrea Manganelli:
...I am very practical: I am not at all interested to theories of “gurus” who explain theories more or less TCL ( time-consuming-and-losing). I am exclusively interested to apparatuses able to work. In our field we are too much filled up with theorists who write stupidities of which they are not liable because they have not to produce something that actually works. Take for example the ridiculous theories coming from the “papers” of Widom, Larsen and accolites: they suppose groundless behaviours of virtual particles just if they could behave like Fermions, and they simply ignore the leptons’ conservation law: this is ridicolous, but the “theoretical gurus” are all around this pure loss- of- time- theory, just because none of them has the anxiety deriving from the necessity to make the money necessary to refund the expenses of the research : they just ask for money of the taxpayer, like the other (Italian) guru who is using since 20 years the taxpayer’s money to make ridiculous research on the cold fusion electrilytic processes. This is also why we count on our Customers to repay ourselves, while they ask for Taxpayer’s contribution. Some imbecile has written that we are sellers, not scientists: well we are scientists who want not to steal the money of the taxpayers, therefore we have to sell our (really working) products. While they make mental masturbations with ridiculous theories totally groundless, we are working 16 hours per day to make real working products. With our money, not with money of the Taxpayers.

All this is not from your comment, but your comment has triggered this answer after I read from a blog a letter of an imbecile who says we are not scientists, but sellers. I got the chance to repeat that to “think” without to be able to make anything useful is a loss of time, if made without money, and is a fraud if made with the money of the Taxpayer. In Italy we have a paradigmatic example of this, specifically in the LENR field.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

He must be referring to Piantelli, "the Italian guru" of LENR.

[Rune]

When you go up against "Carlhole" you know you're going to lose.

Humbleness and modesty by a true believer.

I believe the Low Energy Nuclear Reactions are real. That's pretty much well-established by hundreds of researchers worldwide. But I don't have any opinion on rossi or defkalion until they show an undeniable working device.

[diemos]

Take for example the ridiculous theories coming from the “papers” of Widom, Larsen and accolites: they suppose groundless behaviours of virtual particles just if they could behave like Fermions, and they simply ignore the leptons’ conservation law: this is ridicolous,

How odd.

Rossi says the Widom-Larsen theory is ridiculous.

I thought you were telling us that Widom-Larsen explains everything Carl.

[Rune]

Take for example the ridiculous theories coming from the “papers” of Widom, Larsen and accolites: they suppose groundless behaviours of virtual particles just if they could behave like Fermions, and they simply ignore the leptons’ conservation law: this is ridicolous,

How odd.

Rossi says the Widom-Larsen theory is ridiculous.

I thought you were telling us that Widom-Larsen explains everything Carl.

That wasn't me; that was NASA.

Strange you would be confused about that.

[Keith_McClary]

That's pretty much well-established by hundreds of researchers worldwide.

That's mostly dozens of items each from a handful of names.

[Rune]

That's pretty much well-established by hundreds of researchers worldwide.

That's mostly dozens of items each from a handful of names.

All those papers are featured on the The International Society for Condensed Matter Nuclear Science site; those papers are relevant as hell to the membership of the Society. "CMNS" is yet another name for the these classes of poorly understood nuclear phenomena - call it LENR, LANR, CMNS... it all refers to the same thing. All the papers listed there are relevant to the subject. Many deal with measurement accuracy and technique.

The literature (depending on the year published) counts 70 - 100 scientific papers directly creating and measuring the excess heat phenomenon.

What is the origin of the name of the Society?

It is difficult to trace the origin, but the historic Jones' 1989 paper, Nature 338 p 737 "Observation of cold nuclear fusion in condensed matter" certainly stimulated many similar titles. According to Prof. Xingzhong Li, the phrase "Condensed Matter Nuclear Science" was suggested at a meeting of the ICCF-9 International Advisory Committee and he adopted it as the title for the conference proceedings. Subsequently the title was adopted for the electronic journal as announced at ICCF-10 Condensed Matter Nuclear Science. The Society's name may be abbreviated to ISCMNS.

Bill Collis made a public call for an International Cold Fusion Society at the Asti workshop in 1999 and this was repeated by Jean Paul Biberian at ICCF-8 in 2000. Further discussion took place at ICCF-10 in 2003, and the first formal Presentation on a possible society was was made in November 2003 at ENEA, Frascati (Italy).

Condensed matter nuclear physics is not a new science. It includes neutron and muon physics, fields which are of interest to CF (but often overlooked).

Why have you avoided "Cold Fusion" in the name of the Society?

Condensed Matter Nuclear Science is about multiple anomalies and it is unlikely that these can be explained by just one class of nuclear reactions be they fusion or fission. "Cold Fusion" is a widely used name of software and could be a source of confusion.

Why do we need a Society at all?

Experience shows that organizing any scientific initiative on an personal basis can place unreasonable burdens on the individuals concerned. For example, to organize a meeting, the organizers need to advance deposits on the conference hall, hotels and restaurants etc. Attendees benefit from discounts without taking any of the risks. It is not appropriate that these risks are taken by organizers who may be donating their time free of charge. Of course there are many other initiatives which the Society intends to take - organizing meetings is just one example.

The community needs an organization that is democratic and seen to be democratic. Democracies necessarily have to respond to their members and tend to provide better service. Because democratic organizations can claim to represent their members they are able to negotiate with other institutions including government from a stronger position.

[Rune]

[url=Tally of Cold Fusion Papers[/url]

2. Positive, peer-reviewed excess heat papers culled from both databases (as of 2009)

It has been widely reported in the mass media that cold fusion was never replicated, and that
peer-reviewed papers on cold fusion have not been published. The primary claim made by
Fleischmann and Pons in 1989 was the production of excess heat without chemical changes. This
tally shows that the claim was replicated and reported in the peer-reviewed literature.

This tally includes positive, peer-reviewed papers describing excess heat experimental results
only. It does not include things such as: negative papers describing null results; papers describing
tritium or other effects but not heat; theory papers; or non-peer reviewed papers published by
national laboratories, corporations and in conference proceedings.

Papers reporting both excess heat and also tritium, neutrons and other effects are included in
this tally. The titles are culled from both the Britz and LENR-CANR database.

Totals from this tally include:
153 papers
49 journals
348 authors and co-authors
62 principle authors
51 affiliations of principal authors

There are 62 principal authors (Table 2). Altogether they have 51 affiliations, because a few
authors come from the same laboratory, such as Kainthla and Lin, who were graduate students
with Bockris at Texas A&M U. In some cases, multiple laboratories in the same institution are
listed, such as Hokkaido U., Catalysis Res. Center and Hokkaido U., Engineering Dept.
Researchers from these two laboratories worked and published independently of one another.

It appears that the estimate of 100 papers directly related to cold fusion is way conservative.

[Rune]

link

The Brillouin Energy Corporation has apparently found the money that it needs to commercialize its low energy nuclear reaction boiler technology. Sterling D. Allen of LENR to Market weekly reported that Brillouin’s CEO Robert W. George II told him that the company had received $2 million in financing. Allen did not reveal the source of this funding.

George and his partner Robert Godes have said they need $2 million in order to fund the next stage of development of their cold fusion boiler technology. Allen presented no evidence to verify this claim but if it is true it is very good. George has said that Brillouin’s boiler technology could begin replacing coal, oil and natural gas fired boilers in existing power plants within a few years.

...That means development of the Brillouin boiler technology is about to begin.

[Prune]

" apparently found the money "
Well, that's lucky.
Otherwise they might have had to SCAM it off someone!

Your path to success
Is one phone call away
Are you ready?
Give all of your money!
If you truly believe
Act now to reserve your seat
Are you ready?
Send all of your money!
Give me all of your money
The less that you know is
To profit from ignorance
Are you ready?
Taking all of your money!
Televise fear in the home
Don't believe everything you read
Pay attention!
You're giving all of your money!
Give me all of your money!

[Rune]

ENTER THE COLD FUSION MARKETPLACE

http://www.blacklightpower.com

http://www,brillouinenergy.com

http://www.ecat.com

http://www.defkalion-energy.com

With NASA and many others we are able to quickly replace all major sources of energy with cold fusion. At a cost savings, both in implementation and future use, ad infinitum.

Every friend, neighbor, coworker, student, teacher, politician and activist, liberal and conservative, both young and old should become aware of this as soon as possible.

Then the harm caused from continued use of dirty crippling coal, asthma inducing oil, or birth defective radioactive nuclear becomes a matter of criminal negligence. Do all you can to both get the word out and enable this energy transition. It is the most important topic of our time.

Bård Havre / Reply
Hopefully this can sober up the debate on LENR, or whatever one chooses to call it. The scientific record of this phenomenon goes back 100 years, the only thing missing is verification of theory, Wisdom-Larsen or other.

As for Rossi, he is an inventor, and does what inventors do, invent an manufacture a device exploiting LENR. Being an inventor myself, I se nothing out of the ordinary with his behaviour. Secrecy is a must, you dont publish anything important in the process, so the lack of independet testing is natural. As for the reality of the Ecat, and the other devices, we just have to wait, they will hit the market(or not), that will be the moment of truth for Rossi. Claiming him a fraud at this time is premature, if he does not deliver in this decade I may consider him an overoptimistic failure, As far as I know he has not swindled anybody out of their money yet on this project..

Yeah, where's the swindle? I never did see one that makes any sense.

And now there are some 6 different companies vying for commercialization and the market. Six simultaneous LENR swindles? You're out of your freakin' mind and you believe weird things.

I've never heard anyone around here try to explain why there ARE suddenly a proliferation of LENR scams that have hit the energy scene... WHY they are finding funding... WHY science backs up these claims with hundreds of scientific papers testifying to the presence of this excess heat phenomenon...

I've only ever heard poor arguments that treat Rossi as if he were the only player in this expanding story.

[diemos]

And now there are some 6 different companies vying for commercialization and the market.

While I'm not a graduate of a prestigious business school, it seems to me that producing an actual working gizmo would provide a significant competitive advantage. It's odd that none of these companies has actually thought of that.

[Prune]

http://tinyurl.com/crmoq7o

E-Cat Australia Pty Ltd ACN 155 299 148 ABN 121 552 991 48 TFN 933 519 629
E-Cat Australia welcomes you to a new age of energy production.
The idea of LENR “Low Energy Nuclear Reactions aka Cold Fusion” has
been around for several decades, and has finally taken its final leap into
reality with our release of the E-Cat Technology (Energy Catalyzer).
The world´s first working 1 MW thermal heat generating plant (ECAT) was
demonstrated to the public and many scientists throughout 2011, thanks to
the genius inventor Dr. Andrea Rossi, from Italy.
The energy source is nickel and hydrogen where no combustion process
takes place but instead the hydrogen is merged with nickel and forms small
amounts of copper. The energy density is a factor of 100,000 or more
compared to the combustion processes of today’s fuels. The energy density
is so high that the E-Cat modules only need to be re-loaded two times a year
This is a game changer; it creates energy with very low energy inputs. E-cat
technology provides a truly clean and green source of energy without
radioactive byproducts and no carbon emissions.
It has already earned the reputation of being both economically attractive,
saving energy and money for its customers, and the ultimate "green"
machine.
Currently the E-Cat Industrial unit produces 1 MW of steam and hot water,
and is available for purchase. We invite you to thoroughly read through the
specifications and cost comparisons on the 1 MW unit.
In the near future, towards the end of 2012, the domestic 10 Kw will be
available for purchase. Simply install this unit into your new home, or retrofit
into your existing home, which is guaranteed to radically reduce your power
consumption and energy bills, saving much $$ for our customers, as well as
reducing carbon emissions. We invite you to pre-order the domestic unit
without obligation or pre-payment-just watch this space over the next few
months to witness the new age of energy production…

Must be for real.....
I can't how it could possibly be a scam.....

[Prune]

E-­‐Cat technical and financial data:
• E-­‐Cat Australia has the exclusive license for Australia, New Zealand, Indonesia, PNG, and all Pacific Islands
• Sell price 1.5m US plus GST
• Payment of 1/3 US$ at time of order: US $500,000 • Delivery 3-­‐4 months after order and deposit
• Payment of 2/3 US$ after performance test: US $1,000,000 • GST is $150,000
• Delivery from USA factory to customers location is customers cost
• Shipping costs for container 1 MW approx. $US 3000-­‐4000 from Miami USA
• Exact quote given or arrange your own shipping and transport
• Installation by E-­‐Cat Australia team at Customer expense, approx. 2 days / $1500 per day, includes operating
manuals and staff training

There again, you could just order some SunCubes instead!


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Can't see any sign of a scam there can you?

[ColossalContrarian]

This has SCAM written all over it!!!

No news or .gov involvement? Why aren't they trying to sell these to auto manufacturers and who are the six companies involved? GE surely....

[SeaGypsy]

There is a heap of government involvement in Watson's scams in Australia and his Suncube factory produces nothing and has 2 or 3 admin staff. He is being hunted by certain federal and state agencies for breach of contract and is likely to be in prison soon if he stays in Australia.