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LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Rune » Wed 30 May 2012, 11:11:01

AgentR11 wrote:The problem is the "coverage" in this thread is more akin to an advertisement for speculative venture partners with too much money on their hands. "Coverage" would dictate significant skepticism over any unproven claims made by those involved with the supposed product. That skepticism is very lacking amongst those pretending to be providing "coverage".


Everyone is skeptical and waiting for the undeniable evidence. This has been the case since the get-go. No one says anything new by saying this. Of course, everyone wants proof! This is the baseline condition. It's just as obvious as the nose on your face.

Yet, the news continues to emerge. Multiple researchers and institutions have expressed strong interest. there are business interests and venture capital involved. the story continues to develop. So we watch it develop here in this thread. I have no crytal ball; I don't claim to know what will happen in the LENR field in the next several months or next few years.

But interest by high-level academics, scientists, researchers, and business people assure that this story will continue to be interesting as hell as details, news and evidence emerges.

If you don't think it is interesting as hell; feel free not to click on this thread.
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Cog » Wed 30 May 2012, 21:19:00

I think you mistake my intentions here Rune. I was absolutely in heaven watching Rossi cobble together an old radiator, hook some hoses and a generator to it, and generate real live steam. It absolutely made my day to watch a project come together in such a dramatic way. Put me in mind of some of the old Frankenstein movies. You know the ones with the electricity arcing across Tesla coils and big buss bars taming the power of the universe.

This is how science needs to be done. Theories are fine for the eggheads but I want action. I want to see gauges, tubes, boiling water, explosions, mad scientists, the whole shooting match.

Please post links to any more of these demonstrations that you come across.
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Rune » Wed 30 May 2012, 22:13:44

Cog wrote:I want to see gauges, tubes, boiling water, explosions, mad scientists, the whole shooting match.


You have a gift of saying the completely obvious.

While waiting for these promised things, the story's details emerge and we follow these developments in this thread. Do you finally understand this now?

I can't believe your having trouble with a simple idea. :lol:

Damn! that's pretty bad...
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Rune » Wed 30 May 2012, 22:54:40

The Peak Oil Crisis: The Edisonian Approach

For those of you who came in late, we are talking here about claims from roughly a dozen scientists, entrepreneurs, and small companies around the world that they are measuring heat being released in such quantities that it can only be from nuclear reactions. This occurs when they subject hydrogen loaded into various metals to heat or electromagnetic pulses. There are now so many organizations, some of which are highly reputable, reporting this phenomenon that we now seem to be past the stage of calling all these observations fraudulent or the result of improper measurements. Enough information has been released by the various experimenters to conclude that the effect being reported is not "conventional" nuclear fusion of deuterium atoms such as takes place in the sun or a hydrogen bomb and which requires extremely large amounts of energy to initiate.

The post says flat out that the nuclear physicists were correct 20 years ago when they concluded that what was being called "cold fusion" simply could not happen in the conventional sense of the term. What the physicists missed at the time, and many still do, was that the anomalous heat that was being reported was not coming from some miraculous overcoming of the coulomb barrier in defiance of the laws of physics, but from a heretofore unknown reaction at the atomic scale that did not require large amounts of energy to initiate.
Bushnell reports that NASA is currently attempting to verify a new theory known as Widom-Larsen that may provide the theoretical basis for understanding how heat is produced.


Another great LENR piece by Tom Whipple who is also following the very interesting LENR story.

It isn't just Rossi, folks.
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 31 May 2012, 01:02:05

Bloody hell Carl. How many deadlines have you put up here "By January (or whatever) this or that evidence will be made available; then what happens? Nada, squat, nothing. So far the skeptics have been totally right and you have been totally wrong. That is not 'following a news story', it's reason to doubt your mental health.
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Rune » Thu 31 May 2012, 01:36:08

SeaGypsy wrote:Bloody hell Carl. How many deadlines have you put up here "By January (or whatever) this or that evidence will be made available; then what happens? Nada, squat, nothing. So far the skeptics have been totally right and you have been totally wrong. That is not 'following a news story', it's reason to doubt your mental health.


Doubt Tom Whipple's mental health... or NASA's... or any of the dozens of research groups worldwide.

If you don't like the thread, don't click on it. What could be simpler? Why is this a problem for you?
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 31 May 2012, 02:50:37

I have doubted NASA's mental health since I was about 7 years old; still do. If that was somehow relevant. So far the evidence amounts to something like an ant colony next to the Himalayas with some spruiker selling shares in the 'future mountain range bigger than Everest which has been fortold will arise right here from this very anthill'. Lots of supposedly smart people believe in some quite stupid and inane things, there is nothing new about that.

I come here every now and then for entertainment value. I post sometimes, mainly so it's clear that Cog (or whoever has bothered questioning your largely hype based posting here lately) is not at all alone.
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Ming » Thu 31 May 2012, 04:44:19

SeaGypsy wrote:I have doubted NASA's mental health since I was about 7 years old; still do. If that was somehow relevant. So far the evidence amounts to something like an ant colony next to the Himalayas with some spruiker selling shares in the 'future mountain range bigger than Everest which has been fortold will arise right here from this very anthill'. Lots of supposedly smart people believe in some quite stupid and inane things, there is nothing new about that.

I come here every now and then for entertainment value. I post sometimes, mainly so it's clear that Cog (or whoever has bothered questioning your largely hype based posting here lately) is not at all alone.

I fully agree with you, Cog, et al.

In my case I find the various LENR aspects (the attempts to dubious fame, the vacuous "research projects", the obvious scams, etc.) quite funny.
Obviously, among those I find the more concrete hardware-based scams a lot funnier.
But I don't have the time or patience to go searching the multitude of dedicated crackpot blogs for "news" on this.
So I follow them here.

For this to go on, we need Hole's dogged dedication to any mad "almost-free energy" scheme, and his willingness to keep us up to date with every new scheme that pops up.
(And with some old schemes as well… LENR, for example, is Cold Fusion with a refreshed name… But "Cold Fusion" was so last century, right? :-).

Please keep it up, Hole, and never despair!
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 31 May 2012, 07:25:03

This place is loaded with pricks.
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 31 May 2012, 08:54:30

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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Cog » Thu 31 May 2012, 10:27:24

vision-master wrote:This place is loaded with pricks.


We love you too VM.
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 31 May 2012, 10:36:20

Well, let me tell ya something coggy, There's less than a handfull of ppl I would ever consider meeting in person that post here. This place is NOT for meeting new friends.
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Rune » Thu 31 May 2012, 11:09:56

Let the little babies throw their tantrum. I enjoy the hell out of it! :lol:
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Rune » Thu 31 May 2012, 13:13:34

doop
Last edited by Rune on Thu 31 May 2012, 13:41:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Rune » Thu 31 May 2012, 13:16:15

Potential Advantages and Impacts of LENR Generators of Thermal and Electrical Power and Energy

David J. Nagel*

Many lists give the possible performance and implications of systems which use LENR for generation of thermal or electrical power. They mostly reside at various places on the internet. This paper brings together in one location and in written form the separate, though often related, items from the lists of possible positive features and future importance of LENR generators of power and energy.

Some comments are provided on each of the putative advantages and impacts in the following pages. It must be noted that most of the items listed below have not been adequately validated. The list suffers from including too many still unproven assertions by Andrea Rossi of Leonardo Corporation and by Defkalion Green Technologies S. A., among other organizations and individuals. Also, it is recognized that this list is despised by critics, who scorn even the existence, let alone the practicality, of LENR. Both the lack of any validated theory to explain LENR, and what seem to be overly-optimistic views of LENR applications, offend many commentators. Absence of scientific understanding is one thing. A set of potential properties that seems too good to be true is something else. The following compilation deals with, and possibly contributes to, the second of these perceived problems with LENR.


Be informed Oh, Ignorant Ones.



About the Author: David J. Nagel is the CEO of NUCAT Energy LLC ( http://www.nucat-energy.com ) and a Research Professor in the School of Engineering and Applied Science of The George Washington University in Washington, D.C.
*Email: nucat.energy@gmail.com


David J. Nagel deals with technical and programmatic functions of NUCAT. He received a BS degree in Engineering Science (Magna Cum Laude), an MS degree in Physics and a PhD in Materials Engineering. During a half century, Dave has had three successful careers: Officer in the US Navy. After graduating first in his Naval ROTC class, he had four years of active duty and 26 years of reserve service, including three tours as a Commanding Officer. He retired in 1990 with the rank of Captain, U. S. Naval Reserve. Federal Government Scientist and Manager. Dave joined the civilian staff of the Naval Research Laboratory after his active duty. As a member of the Senior Executive Service and leader of a physics division for over a dozen years, he managed the experimental and theoretical research and development efforts of 150 government, contractor and other personnel, including 80 PhDs ($30M/year). University Teacher and Researcher. For the past dozen years, Dave has been a Research Professor in the Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering of The George Washington University. He taught graduate level courses on MEMS and NanoTechnology. Now, Dave mentors both undergraduate and graduate students. His current research centers on low energy nuclear reactions.
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Rune » Thu 31 May 2012, 13:48:31

Current Status of LENR

Science: The subject of LENR was a legitimate field of scientific inquiry from its origins in 1989, even though it was not viewed as such by many people. It remains a challenging complex of nuclear and atomic physics. Many types, characteristics and reactions of nuclei have been implicated during the experimental study of LENR. There are also many relevant factors at the atomic level, including molecular and solid-state effects. The role of a lattice of atoms is widely recognized, although questions remain about the details, including compositional and structural factors. It is still debated whether LENR occur exclusively on surfaces or also in the interiors of lattices. Similarly, the question of whether there is only one or more mechanisms active to produce LENR and their diverse results is unresolved. In short, the study of LENR remains a very open and challenging field at a basic science level, despite all of the experimental and theoretical work over the past 22 years.

Technology: Even though LENR are not understood conceptually, it is possible that they can be made to do something. Whether or not what can be done based on LENR is useful for anything, including making money, is a separable issue. Once it was shown experimentally that the production of excess power and heat were possible, LENR could be considered a source of thermal energy. Of course, if the produced heat were too little, or the resulting temperatures too low, the source would not be useful. A few experiments during the first 20 years of the field demonstrated the ability to boil water. This has lead to the vision of practical applications, which may be realized in the current time frame.

Engineering: If a new effect might actually be useful, it is necessary to design, fabricate and test prototypes of possible products. The effect has to be both reproducible and controllable. That is, prototype energy sources must be able to be turned on, ramped up, held constant, ramped down and turned off. This is entirely similar to the control widely available for automobile engines. During the past two years, Andrea Rossi has engineered prototype energy sources based on LENR. After their design and fabrication, they have been tested repeatedly in recent months. Many of the descriptions and results of those tests are available on various web sites. The conduct, data and interpretations of the tests are widely discussed now, without any agreement on the most fundamental points. It remains to be seen how the commercial sources being developed by Rossi perform, and if they are reliable for useful periods of time.

Commercialization: The prototypes that Rossi produced and tested are now the basis of products being manufactured. Demonstration of a nominal 1 MW LENR generator occurred on 28 October 2011. It is the first commercial LENR energy source. Over a dozen units have reportedly been sold to an unidentified customer. 5 kW products are anticipated. Please see: http://ecat.com/ A start-up company in Greece, Defkalion Green Technologies, is also offering kW-scale LENR based sources for sale next year: http://www.defkalion-energy.com/files/H ... er2011.pdf Ambitious plans to produce thousands of such sources annually were announced by Defkalion during 2011. Widespread use of small and distributed LENR energy sources, which are safe and green, free of dangerous immediate radiation and radioactive waste, would have substantial environmental benefits.

Education: If, as planned, many energy sources based on LENR are produced and sold, it will be necessary to educate a workforce in their design, manufacture, installation, maintenance and other functions. This will require knowledgeable managers, engineers, technicians and sales people. Hence, NUCAT Energy is offering commercial short courses on LENR. The first was near Washington DC in October 2011 and the second is planned for the same region in the spring of 2012. A summary of the first course is at: http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazi ... nucat.html The company will also provide on-site lectures and courses at places and times specified by customers.


If you are not interested in this whole burgeoning subject ...and you claim to pay attention to energy... you're basically full of BS.
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Rune » Thu 31 May 2012, 14:13:31

Short Course: Instructors
The instructors for this course were seven internationally known scientists and engineers, who have been active contributors to the LENR field for all or much of its history. They are listed in the order they appeared in the course.

David J. Nagel, PhD, is a Research Professor at The George Washington University and CEO of NUCAT Energy LLC. He has contributed to this field as a scientist and manager since its origins in 1989. Dave participated in all 16 of the International Conferences on Cold Fusion (ICCF), and chaired ICCF-14. His primary activity has been and remains writing technical articles on LENR.

Michael E. Melich, PhD, has been a Research Professor at the Naval Postgraduate School since 1985 and focuses on potential technology breakthroughs of great importance to national defense. From the 1989 Fleischmann-Pons announcement, Mike has done research and published papers on LENR. He has attended all 16 of the ICCF and co-chaired ICCF-14.

Michael C.H. McKubre, PhD, is Director of the Energy Research Center at SRI International. He has been active in this field as an experimentalist since 1989. Mike researched the palladium deuterium system from 1978. He presented at all 16 of the International Conferences on Cold Fusion, and was co-chairman of ICCF-4. His primary expertise includes electrochemical kinetics, metal-hydrogen systems and calorimetry.

David A. Kidwell, PhD, has been a Research Scientist at the Naval Research Laboratory, Washington DC since 1982. His expertise is in trace analysis by mass spectrometry, and instrument and software design. David has been active in this field since 2005, first working on detection of transmutation products (not conclusively found), and later developing gas loading systems using nano- and sub-nanometer particles of palladium on various supports.

Kenneth S. Grabowski, PhD, is a Research Physicist in the Naval Research Laboratory. He was educated in Nuclear Engineering, and has followed and contributed to the study of LENR since 1989. Ken has monitored numerous LENR experiments to measure nuclear reaction by-products, and has participated in rigorous measurements of excess heat from gas loading and electrochemical experiments.

Ashraf Imam, DSc, FASM, is a Research Metallurgist at Naval Research Laboratory and Adjunct Professor at The George Washington University. He has over 200 publications in a variety of refereed journals. They are a clear testimony forAshraf as a researcher and teacher in the area of Materials Science and Engineering. He has been involved in materials related issues in LENR since its origins in 1989, and holds two U. S. patents on materials for LENR.

Peter L. Hagelstein, PhD, an Associate Professor of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science at MIT, is an applied physicist. Peter has worked on anomalies associated with the Fleischmann-Pons experiments since 1989. The focus of his research in the field has been to understand the new LENR physical mechanisms. Peter was Chairman of ICCF-10 in 2003.


Pretty complex scam, huh?
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Rune » Thu 31 May 2012, 15:59:45

Controlled Electron Capture Reaction (CECR)

An animated description of the physics that underlie the the phenomena previously known as Cold Fusion. This show the reaction can be driven using pulses of electricity through the lattice.


Another name for the same effect.

Whether or not it is right or wrong or partially right or whatever - this is the best explication I've seen of the quantum processes which yield significant amounts of measurable energy.
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 31 May 2012, 16:11:11

Cog wrote:
vision-master wrote:This place is loaded with pricks.


We love you too VM.


Whilst you are perhaps a balloon full of hot air? Or the funny smelling smoke?
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Re: LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby vision-master » Thu 31 May 2012, 16:37:26

Gypsy Queen, I hear you're a trust funder like Planted....... lsol
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