LENR, Rossi and the ECAT Thread pt 2 (merged)

[SeaGypsy]

Lol! the opposite. 10 days out of the city in 1 year, it's a shocker. Moving house, migrating family, expensive living. Herb here is $300 oz as to $1 gm in Asia. My rent is 10 times what it was. My wife's brother just smashed both his legs in a scooter crash and she has torn off in a huff because we can't afford to pay for his stupid drunkenness.
Looking forward to a new place I've just leased near Melbourne docks, ideal for boatbuilding and international freight business.

Really Vision I would be as happy as anyone to believe the LENR hype, but my frontal lobes keep getting in the way. I just can't get THAT stoned!

[Schadenfreude]

Really Vision I would be as happy as anyone to believe the LENR hype, but my frontal lobes keep getting in the way. I just can't get THAT stoned!

You don't have to believe anything. It's just a damn energy news story we're following.

[SeaGypsy]

More like the evolution of a black hole.

[Laromi]

Let me give you a few easy examples Laromi
It is an INCONTESTABLE FACT that Rossi is not a scientist.
It is an INCONTESTABLE FACT that Rossi has criminal convictions.
It is an INCONTESTABLE FACT that the Ecat demonstrations were faked.
(a dribble of warm water for furx sake!!)

Laromi writes,
You and others still refuse to acknowledge an INCONTESTABLE FACT that LENR, Cold Fusion or an elephant by another name has been proven by many, many times over, to be more than a curious event. So what if the allegations you raise against Rossi as a person or others involved in this (LENR, Cold Fusion) debate are true to what extent do they have any revelance to LENR, Cold Fusion as a scientific demonstration that other potential sources of energy will, as in the past, be exposed in in due course of this debate.

If you have INCONTESTABLE evidence of fraud or some other INCONTESTABLE evidence of wrong doing then present it.

BTW Overunity is also bollocks: even o.o99 to the Nth. Degree is still overunity and perhaps whilst not singularly useful, has however, the potential to be useful rather than some of your baseless remarks and quotations.

[Laromi]

SG, pm me with those kind of accusations from now on. No sense in falsely labeling me in a public forum. Have you no manners at all?

Whilst you are on the case, if you read further, those that had the later displeasure of calling Pons and Fleishman out did so without the anonymity of the internet. The "public" (scientific fraternity) knew personally, if you will, the people who made the remarks. Not so as you, or in fact as anyone with a mindset for making feckless noise from somewhere behind a screen of filtered and re-filtered firewalls and proxies. That is what I mean. Read the post. And, with a little more effort you may well be on your way to becoming a cynic.

[Laromi]

Hey Vision, the mods must be in on it to destroy free energy for big oil?

Rossi wasn't convicted for shoplifting but for environmental destruction and fraud. The worst kind of scammer, a vandal to boot.

Is green cynicism growing?

[SeaGypsy]

Carl, for arguments sake, on your many posts on 9/11 you repeatedly updated lists of Architects and Engineers and Military personnel for 9/11 truth. Now those are some serious names. And lots of them.

Where is anything like an equivalent list for LENR?

[Schadenfreude]

Carl, for arguments sake, on your many posts on 9/11 you repeatedly updated lists of Architects and Engineers and Military personnel for 9/11 truth. Now those are some serious names. And lots of them.

Where is anything like an equivalent list for LENR?

The Rebirth of Cold Fusion: Real Science, Real Hope, Real Energy by Steven B. Krivit

I started this writing project after attending the 10th International Conference on Cold Fusion in August 2003 in Cambridge, Mass. It was there that I met over 100 researchers from around the world and realized that they were on to something.

They were real scientists, credentialed, with long and respectable careers. They employed the same instrumentation and methodologies used in "normal" science. According to them, there was strong evidence for a new source of clean nuclear (no, this is not an oxymoron) energy. At first, it didn't make sense why their research had been ignored. As I dug deeper, the complex scientific and human drama, perhaps the greatest of our time, revealed itself.

The goal of this book is to provide everything you might want to know about the first period of cold fusion's history. What happened? Why? Who was responsible for the successes? The failures? Who knew what and when did they know it? The book is written for the nonscientific reader and provides a unique glimpse into the inner and sometimes ugly process of new science. You'll learn that scientists can be surprisingly unscientific when threatened with new ideas that challenge their funding, stature and careers. You will see how science really works - or doesn't.

There's quite a solid list of credentialed people who have researched this field. I've posted it before and can't find it right now.

However, I would recommend reading a book like the above to get all background. Then, I understand the author also runs a blog you can subscribe to to keep-up-to-date.

[Quinny]

Selling books now Carl

[kublikhan]

As I say, a lot of folk (shills) using this forum have, in the main, been deriding Rossi not his science. As you should be well aware by now, many creditable members of the scientific community have little or no problem with acceptance of LENR science and this acceptance appears to be quickly growing in universities, Academic/scientific groups, Industry etc.

Is green cynicism growing?

Nah, if something threatens their cherished doom, they start growlin like grandpa's bowels.

It doesn't matter if you say, "Yeah, I heard you the first time: you think it's a scam". So big deal. That idea occurs to everyone. It's only because of the endorsement of high level academics that story sprang to life on the blogosphere. Perhaps it was due, because their is so much independent activity in the LENR field its astonishing that something didn't break before.

Your statements imply that this is the first time a green energy scam recieved endorsements from high level academics. It is not.

Acerbi: “In the years where [Rossi] was working here, he didn’t produce a single drop of oil [from petroldragon], as far as we know. What he did was creating just a media event. He was able to persuade – in a way that I cannot explain – a good portion of public opinion, and that’s exactly what is hard for me to explain. He persuaded technicians in the field, scientists and important institutions, [inaudible] the region of Lombardia that he was able to do magic.”

“[Rossi] Claimed He Had the Formula to Transform Toxic Waste Into Black Gold, Only Succeeded in Causing Environmental Disaster. “Oil Wizard” sentenced to 8 years. Expenses Enough to Bankrupt Lacchiarella Refinery – Omar Turned Into Warehouse of Tanks Holding 57 Thousand Tons of Toxic Waste – Reclamation Costs More Than 30 Billion.”

Rossi’s Financial and Environmental Criminal History

When Rossi ran scams in the past, he was also successful in persuading scientists, important institutions, and technicians in the field that his devices worked as claimed. It was only in later investigations that it was discovered that they had been duped. All of that promised magic of turning toxic waste into gold, was just an illusion. The 57 thousand tons of toxic waste is still sitting there in tanks that are leaking into the ground, poisoning the environment and ground water. All of those magical thermocouples that performed 1000x better than what everyone else was doing, turned out to be junk. They were no better than what anybody else had produced, and in fact were worse with a 70% failure rate. Duping academic and scientific groups is not proof that your device functions as claimed. I hope you will drop this illusion you have that we are only skeptical of Rossi because we see him as a threat to our doomer porn. He has a long history of running scams like this and he is pulling many of the same tricks he has in the past.

[lper100km]

K: If this man is guilty of all the duplicity you have ascribed to him, why is he still able to continue to function in the scientific field without censure? Beyond that, why is he even allowed to walk around as a free man? The scientific and legal community are not usually tolerant of scams on this kind of scale.

Just askin’

[kublikhan]

K: If this man is guilty of all the duplicity you have ascribed to him, why is he still able to continue to function in the scientific field without censure? Beyond that, why is he even allowed to walk around as a free man? The scientific and legal community are not usually tolerant of scams on this kind of scale.

Just askin’

As to why he is in not in prison, he was sent to prison several times already. As I already mentioned, he is a convicted felon. However he served his time for his past crimes and is now a free man. To-date, there has been no proof he has committed any crime regarding the E-Cat, at least none that I am aware of.

As to why he is still able to function in the scientific field, he doesn't. No scientific journal will publish what he writes. So he created his own "journal", which he himself is the editor. This gives the illusion that he is publishing in a peer reviewed journal, but in reality it is just a blog that he himself edits. He did the same thing when he was running his petroldragon scam when he created his own journal and publishing house. If you are following this story, you will notice Rossi's theater is not the scientific field, it's the media and blogosphere. He and his followers are often hostile to scientists and academics, viewing them as "dinosaurs" who are too rigid in their old ways of thinking. For example, you may have heard Rossi and his followers make statements like:
"Scientists are so hung up on these stupid 'laws' of physics or 'laws' of thermodynamics that they won't even consider the incredible breakthrough Rossi has made." or:
"Rossi doesn't need to provide proof to these skeptical scientists. They will all eat their words when he makes billions from selling a commercial product. That will be his proof."

This is of course a fallacy. Scientists are more than willing to consider new possibilities and ways of thinking:

the fans of zero point energy and similar nonsense will promptly counter-attack by stating that the big problem with “official science” is its immobility and its lack of ability to accept new ideas. A scientist would reply that there is no problem in revisiting old paradigms, in reviewing things, updating them and sometimes even changing them at the root; that precisely this exercise is good for Science because that is the way in which it progresses the faster but all that requires time: a careful, exhaustive experimentation, controlling and measuring all the variables, isolating all the processes and describing and understanding them correctly, to make sure about how things actually work. Then, E-Cat defenders would reply that scientists are trying to block progress by raising stupid questions in an attempt of denying the reality of the great invention of 21st Century, and that with his narrow-mindedness scientists are unable to accept that there are phenomena beyond their understanding. The scientist may say then that we are not talking here of understanding but of describing in a precise way under which particular conditions we get a particular output (even if we are listing the reagents for a magic spell) and try to be sure that the phenomenon is repeatable and controlled. But at this point of the discussion, zero-point-energy fans usually switch their brains off. The carrot of a future fulfilling our more stupid hopes suspends our reason and make us prone to fall in the obvious trap.

No miracles in science: The story of the "energy catalyzer"

[Schadenfreude]

What about Defkalion?

[lper100km]

K: Your comments inspired me to review some of the sites about Rossi. He admits openly to some 56 prosecutions and confinements with or without trial, though they seem mostly to be associated with his management of businesses, regulatory issues and tax problems, not necessarily with the technology of his processes. Apparently he was also acquitted of the charges some years after he had emigrated to the USA. The accounts are generally vague so there is no real definitive and independent account of what actually happened.

Mostly his entrepreneurial activities seem to have occurred in the biomass area.

The eCat thingy seems to have started since 2009

He comes across as an entrepreneur and business man. His degrees seem to be in Philosophy, hardly nuclear engineering. Judging by various comments he has made, he exhibits all the necessary personal qualities required to be an independent developer – extreme self assurance (arrogance?), access to influential people and organizations, chutzpah, paranoia about protection of his product. He is not a researcher in the generally accepted meaning of the word but one can infer little from that. He seems to be more in the product development field and it would be a mistake to expect that he would willingly share his methodology with any one. His dilemma is that if he wishes to produce this device, he has to involve others and make disclosures. He is not obliged to make public disclosure however. In a properly established research environment, peer reviews and published papers are the norm. In product development, the opposite is prevalent. Of course, that attitude encourages suspicion, protectionism and paranoia which is exactly what we are seeing with the eCat. That in turn fuels suspicions of a scam, which may or may not be so.

I am neither ‘for’ nor ‘against’ the idea of LENR since I am not qualified to judge. Whatever happens, happens. I tend to think that if, in fact, fusion can occur at approximate ambient temperatures then there would have been natural occurrences of this over the years. To my mind, it suggests an instability which is not perceived as normality and thus I am generally cold to the idea. However, this may be naïve and I will not discount people who have other ideas – it is possible that they could be right. You just never know.

[kublikhan]

What about Defkalion?

Check out the quote from Defkalion's own white paper:

Defkalion Green Technologies s.a. was established to manufacture and market products based on the E-Cat, which was invented by Andrea Rossi.

The Hyperion and E-Cat are joined at the hip. If the E-Cat is a scam, then surely the Hyperion is as well. After all, Defkalion was founded to manufacture devices based on the E-Cat.

He seems to be more in the product development field and it would be a mistake to expect that he would willingly share his methodology with any one. His dilemma is that if he wishes to produce this device, he has to involve others and make disclosures. He is not obliged to make public disclosure however. In a properly established research environment, peer reviews and published papers are the norm. In product development, the opposite is prevalent. Of course, that attitude encourages suspicion, protectionism and paranoia which is exactly what we are seeing with the eCat. That in turn fuels suspicions of a scam, which may or may not be so.

This dilemma was solved a long time ago with patents. Patenting a process involves disclosure. If you want a patent, you have to disclose. And if you decide to skip a patent, anyone can copy your device the moment you sell the first one and they take it apart. To get around this, Rossi and Defkalion claim to be selling the devices with built in self-destruct features. I don't know about you, but this is a red flag to me. You can't sell consumer devices that self destruct when you open them.

And If you believe Defkalion, they claim to have Rossi's technology and are using it to make their own product. The exact sort of thing a patent would prevent. But Rossi did not patent his secret process, so he is out of luck.

It is a commonplace to claim that the existence of a patent makes the dissemination of the discovery, and even its commercial exploitation, impossible. This is far from the truth. To begin with, a patent is a publication. The patent claimer intends to make the details of a method or system with industrial interest public; obviously, not because of altruistic reason but in order to defend in a court that the inventor (needs not to be the same as the claimer) discovered the method and so anyone willing to commercially exploit the invention must pay for it some royalties or buy an usage license. In order to allow the rest of the world to know what is protected under patent and what is not patents are public (there are internet patent databases, which although public are not free). So that, let us insist on it, with a patent you cannot either secure the details of an invention or hide its details or anything at all, not even while the patent is pending of evaluation. In fact, evaluation processes last for years, but this does not prevent the patent to be licensed and exploited; anyone who wants to use the patented invention must pay the claimer for it. If, finally, one or more of the claims in the patent (that is, the different parts of the invention that the inventor claims to have discovered) are not recognized, anyone could replicate those parts without paying a dime. So that, there is no reason for Rossi and Focardi's secrecy about the E-Cat. Even worse, if the famous secret catalyzer is not a part of the patent itself, then it is not protected, and hence as soon as somebody takes a sample and analyzes it that person could make a design slightly different from that of E-Cat but using the same unprotected catalyzer without paying any money to Rossi and Focardi. Hence, the secrecy about the catalyzer is against Rossi and Focardi's interests, contrary to what some people may think.

No miracles in science: The story of the "energy catalyzer"

[Schadenfreude]

Defkalion claims to have their own proprietary reactor core.

[Captain Thunderbolt]

"He comes across as an entrepreneur and business man. His degrees seem to be in Philosophy, hardly nuclear engineering. Judging by various comments he has made, he exhibits all the necessary personal qualities required to be an independent developer – extreme self assurance (arrogance?), access to influential people and organizations, chutzpah, paranoia about protection of his product."

Why oh why do you want to give such a person the benefit of the doubt?
http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_ ... D=903&PN=1

Posted: 23 August 2008 at 7:09pm | IP Logged
GWatPE wrote:
I have not been in the door, but have seen sun cubes on the roof[apparently not working] and units in the show room


Hi Gordon,

The 10 SunCubes on our roof are currently being upgraded with the latest Emcore receiver modules and should be back operational in the next few days.

As for business activities GGE has 6 current SCIG licenses who are at various stages of building their SunCube manufacturing facilities.

As you may know the SunCube uses a CPV receiver module from Emcore. Emcore have had problems getting their CPV receiver module manufacturing line operational due to the late arrival of some equipment. As of June 2008 the line went operational.

We finally qualified their production CPV receiver module in July / August 2008 and are now in the process of releasing the SunCube engineering data set to our SCIG licenses so they can get their manufacturing operations moving.

It has taken us, Emcore + GGE + SCIG licenses longer than we expected to get here but we finally made it and the Mark 9 SunCube will be in the market very soon.

We recently did a demo and engaged in a open discussion of the Mark 7.5 SunCube to both the SA and NSW branches of the Australian and New Zealand Solar Energy Society. Our home page

http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au

has a photo of the NSW presentation and the Power Point presentation I gave.

Why not stop in for a coffee? I can show you a Mark 7.5 SunCube but not yet the latest Mark 9 as it is going through the patenting process where we expect to get in excess of 20 patents.
__________________
All the best,
Green and Gold Energy Pty., Ltd
Greg Watson, CEO


Why do I keep banging on about the SunCube?
Because it is just the same kind of scam as the Ecat.
Inventor has a shady past.
Invention defies the laws of physics.
No independent testing results.
No product for sale, only licenses to manufacture.
(Pay up, sign here, shut up)

Never mind "innocent until proven guilty"
I say "SCAM until proven otherwise

[Captain Thunderbolt]

From the Whirlpool forum http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-re ... 82041&p=24

Once again Rossi has been caught out telling lies....

http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/03/ ... reactions/

"Andrea Rossi, the inventor of the Energy Catalyzer, told an inspector from the Florida Bureau of Radiation Control that he has no factory in the United States and that no nuclear reactions occur in his devices.

Rossi’s statements contradict nearly everything he has said in the last year about his claims of a factory and his development of a low-energy nuclear reaction device."

http://whrl.pl/Rc7dZE
herring | anchor
Reply to this post | Send whim
posted Today at 4:56 pm
User #28105 5298 posts
Cameron
the unequipped one
Whirlpool Forums Addict
this post was edited
gregpa writes...
no nuclear reactions occur in his devices.

And yet the "inspector" is happy about the statement that there are only "low-energy photons in the range 50-100keV". I am sure that anything in Australia generating 100keV photons (typically X-rays but could arise from nuclear reaction) would be subject to some department or other for radiation protection. I am surprised the inspector did not think to ask him where these photons came from.
Edit: The Florida Bureau are also responsible for X-ray generators, so I suspect the report is fake.

Of course, since the factory does not exist then it is all OK. Nothing about this exists, except perhaps Rossi himself.

http://whrl.pl/Rc7d8F
herring | anchor
Reply to this post | Send whim
posted Today at 5:45 pm
edited Today at 5:54 pm
User #149324 1390 posts
phred01
Whirlpool Enthusiast
Yes the ground is shifting again.

Quote
"Jim Stokes, an inspector with the bureau, interviewed Rossi in Rossi’s Miami apartment on Feb. 29, 2012. Here is the concluding text from his report:

“I spoke with [Mr.] Rossi concerning the construction and operation of his E-Cat device. He stated the active ingredients are powdered nickel and a tablet containing a compound which releases hydrogen gas during the process. [Rossi states that] the output thermal energy is six times the electrical energy input. He acknowledged that no nuclear reactions occur during the process and that only low-energy photons in the energy range of 50 to 100 KeV occur within the device. There are no radiation readings above background when the device is in operation. Since the device is not a reactor, the [Nuclear Regulatory Commission] does not have jurisdiction."

Hmmm! so where does cold fusion sit? . .... no Nuclear reaction! So it must be chemical then it's just a glorified fuel cell! Less than 3 weeks to the end of the first Qtr Rossi promised to come up with the goods. It is starting to look like an elaborate ponzi scheme


Golly where is Aussie Guy when you need him?
He has the inside knowledge.

User #460717 70 posts
Aussie-Guy
Participant
this post was edited
What Rossi has demonstrated is not new, Ni-H LENR reactions have been known about since the early 90's.

Cold Fusion – The history of research in Italy:
http://www.sede.enea.it/com/ingl/New_in ... _Italy.pdf

1994 peer reviewed Ni-H paper showing the reaction produced 3 times more energy than could be explained by a chemical reaction:
http://newenergytimes.com/v2/library/19 ... imento.pdf

1998 paper which also showed Ni-H LENR heat generation for 289 days:
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/FocardiSlargeexces.pdf

In Cold fusion – The history of research in Italy, the researchers add that they observed events of nuclear origins:

During the experiments, which altogether lasted for about 15 years, many phenomena witnessing nuclear reactions inside Ni samples in H atmosphere were observed. While it was producing energy, the cell which produced 900 MJ emitted neutrons for some days ... equal to 1000 times the neutron flux due to cosmic radiation. ... Other events, whose existence can only be due to nuclear reactions, were observed at the end of the experiments ... We observed in remarkable quantity Cu and Zn (with atomic number greater than Ni), F, Na, Mg, Al, Si, P, S, Cl, K, Ca, Mn, Cr, Fe (Fig. 3).

All that Rossi has done is to raise the public visibility of the already known Ni-H LENR reaction and to make a commercial device that produces enough heat energy to be very useful.

There is however a fraud and / or scam going on here here, that has and is being created by those who attempt to discredit Rossi for their own reasons but in trying to do so they also need to discredit all the other Ni-H researchers and their published results.

http://whrl.pl/RcY4Bq
herring | anchor
Reply to this post |
posted 2011-Nov-7, 11:52 am
edited 2011-Nov-7, 12:04 pm

[Schadenfreude]

[quote="kublikhan"And If you believe Defkalion, they claim to have Rossi's technology and are using it to make their own product. The exact sort of thing a patent would prevent. But Rossi did not patent his secret process, so he is out of luck.[/quote]

Defkalion claims to know what sort of technology Rossi uses but they do not use it themselves. They have developed their own proprietary reactor they claim.

[Captain Thunderbolt]

Andrea Rossi
March 9th, 2012 at 9:41 AM
Dear Matthew:
Patents pending are like divisions of an army in movement: the less the enemy knows of them, the better.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
........................................................................................
OMG!!!!!
Not deja vu AGAIN!
greengoldenergy
Newbie
Joined: 30 April 2008
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13
Posted: 20 September 2008 at 8:32am | IP Logged
Hi Gordon,

We were in a meeting with Tom Kenyon, an SA MP. Had you rang up before, I would have arranged a time with was good for both of us. My mobile is 0408 843 089. We are very busy Gordon as we are involved in an extensive patenting process, which when finished will see the SunCube engineering data set released to our worldwide licenses.
The SunCube enclosure is sealed against rain, dust, pollen, etc and is vented against pressure changes.
The Emcore CPV receiver module we have designed in, is totally conformal coated. It will actually operate under water.
__________________
All the best,
Green and Gold Energy Pty., Ltd
Greg Watson, CEO
7 Provident Avenue, Glynde, 5070

Dinges
Joined: 04 January 2008
Posts: 510
Posted: 20 September 2008 at 8:53am | IP Logged
greengoldenergy wrote:we are involved in an extensive patenting process, which when finished will see the SunCube engineering data set released to our worldwide licenses.

Patents require full disclosure of all relevant information; all that information is then made publicly available to everyone, not just your 'licensees'.

Joined: 30 April 2008
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13
Posted: 20 September 2008 at 9:22am | IP Logged
Hi Dinges,
Do you understand what a provisional patent is? It gives you a worldwide priority date, securing your IP, while not requiring you to publicly disclose the details of the IP for 12 months. Then issuing the full patents takes another 6 months. This way any company can get worldwide priority, IP protection and not need to publicly disclose their IP for 18 months. Patents are good, but the early public IP disclosure is not.
__________________
All the best,
Green and Gold Energy Pty., Ltd
Greg Watson, CEO

Dinges
Senior Member

Joined: 04 January 2008
Posts: 510
Posted: 20 September 2008 at 10:31am | IP Logged
greengoldenergy wrote:
Do you understand what a provisional patent is?

My apologies, I'm not very smart and know only very little of business economics, mechanical engineering and patents. But I don't recall you mentioning a 'provisional patent' in your previous reply. A provisional patent is a far cry from a patent.

The little I know of it says that applying for a provisional patent gives you the right to legally claim 'patent pending'. No more, no less, until you've filed for and attained a full (non-provisional) patent. But, I'm no patent attorney. And not even very bright either.

Quote:
while not requiring you to publicly disclose the details of the IP for 12 months.

Interesting statement you made there.

Quote:
Then issuing the full patents takes another 6 months. This way any company can get worldwide priority, IP protection and not need to publicly disclose their IP for 18 months.

I'm a bit shocked/surprized that you're not convinced enough of the invention to start applying for a non-provisional patent. If it were my invention I don't think I'd want to waste any precious time.

Quote:
Patents are good, but the early public IP disclosure is not.

I state again, in case you misunderstood: you want a patent, you provide full disclosure. Not to your licensees but to the public at large. You can try to postpone public disclosure - but you cannot circumvent it, not if you want that (non-provisional) patent.