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LED Light Bulbs (Merged)

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so damn expensive & weak?

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 27 Jan 2010, 08:12:34

LINK

the Department of Energy has initiated the L Prize, a contest aimed at finding ways to replace the nearly 1 billion 60-watt bulbs now installed in the U.S.? Among the submissions: a Philips LED replacement bulb that shines like a 60-watt incandescent but uses 80% less energy and lasts for 20 years. Philips's bulb exists: An example recently was displayed in its San Jose Lumileds subsidiary and could reach the market by the end of 2010.

Without subsidies or aggressive advertising campaigns, LED light bulbs aren't exactly flying off the shelves of hardware stores — yet. At a Bay Area Home Depot, LED light bulbs sell so sporadically that each sale is a mini-event. "We just got 'em in, and we don't sell a lot," says an orange-aproned associate turning over a $20 Philips LED bulb in his hand as he works the electronics aisle. "But, hey, it's a revolution, and sometimes that takes time."
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
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Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so damn expensive & weak?

Unread postby mos6507 » Wed 27 Jan 2010, 09:32:37

whereagles wrote:In short, it could be that bulbs are weakish ON PURPOSE.


That would only be true if there was only one LED manufacturer. As it is, the manufacturer who brings out brighter/cheaper bulbs has a competitive advantage. This breeds innovation.
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so damn expensive & weak?

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Wed 27 Jan 2010, 12:58:45

mos6507 wrote:
whereagles wrote:In short, it could be that bulbs are weakish ON PURPOSE.


That would only be true if there was only one LED manufacturer. As it is, the manufacturer who brings out brighter/cheaper bulbs has a competitive advantage. This breeds innovation.


Right, because corporations never collude!
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so damn expensive & weak?

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 27 Jan 2010, 13:04:37

I'm skeptical, because I bought about 8 LED bulbs 15 months ago and only ONE is still functioning.
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so damn expensive & weak?

Unread postby mos6507 » Wed 27 Jan 2010, 13:10:12

Dreamtwister wrote:Right, because corporations never collude!


Electronics is one field that has perhaps the most rapid rate of progress. If they are dragging their heels, they aren't doing a very good job of it.

It's pretty lazy to pull out the conspiracy card just because things aren't going exactly the way YOU want it.

Waah, where's my water-powered car??? Where's my zero-point energy??? I'm entitled, man. I mean, human ingenuity is so boundless, this stuff has to already exist in some back room someplace. If this isn't in Wal-Mart then it must be a conspiracy!
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so damn expensive & weak?

Unread postby mos6507 » Wed 27 Jan 2010, 14:09:58

For those who are actually interested in the technical R&D going on rather than just speculating about corporate conspiracies, here is something I picked off of Google News today.
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so damn expensive & weak?

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Wed 27 Jan 2010, 14:53:37

mos6507 wrote:Electronics is one field that has perhaps the most rapid rate of progress. If they are dragging their heels, they aren't doing a very good job of it. It's pretty lazy to pull out the conspiracy card just because things aren't going exactly the way YOU want it.
Waah, where's my water-powered car??? Where's my zero-point energy??? I'm entitled, man. I mean, human ingenuity is so boundless, this stuff has to already exist in some back room someplace. If this isn't in Wal-Mart then it must be a conspiracy!
Yes, and ad hominim attacks are very strong support of your position.
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so damn expensive & weak?

Unread postby Googolplex » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 04:29:19

My understanding is the major problem with LED bulbs is that they are forced to be bulbs in the first place.

Common light sockets are just about the WORST way to use LED lighting one could think of. LEDs like low voltage DC, but sockets provide high voltage AC. LEDs provide directional light and need to be mounted accordingly, but sockets are designed and mounted for light bulbs that shine in all directions.

Adapting LEDs to be like the incandescent light bulbs people are used to adds a ton to the price. Properly designed purpose built fixtures for LED lights might result in less then half the current cost per light.

Of course, we'd have to spend the money to replace all our fixtures (recessed and strip lighting instead of sockets that hang from and stick out of walls), and few people will want to do that unless they are going to replace them anyway for another reason.

Ironically, I suspect the transition will probably be so slow in that area, that LED bulbs for traditional style sockets will become affordable enough for it to not really matter anymore before even a small percentage of sockets in homes get replaced. Hell, we don't even HAVE a new standard fixture for LED lighting yet as far as I know.
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so damn expensive & weak?

Unread postby mos6507 » Thu 28 Jan 2010, 10:19:04

Dreamtwister wrote:Yes, and ad hominim attacks are very strong support of your position.


The burden of proof is on you, not me.
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so damn expensive & weak?

Unread postby yesplease » Fri 29 Jan 2010, 15:07:43

You people crack me up! :lol:

Adoption of LEDs is roughly proportional to energy savings IMO. I can go out and get a CFL bulb for ~$.25-$1, and it'll save ~75W compared to a 100W incandescent. Paying $5 for an LED bulb would cost ~$4+ more for a savings of ~12W more.
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so damn expensive & weak?

Unread postby billg » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 15:17:19

OK...it's already February 2010...where the heck can i find one of these bulbs?

Everlasting light:

http://www.regione.vda.it/energia/notiz ... o11ita.pdf

Sep 6th 2007
From The Economist print edition

Researchers have developed an environmentally friendly light bulb that uses very little energy and should never need changing...whereas traditional light bulbs emit just 5% of their energy as light, and fluorescent tubes about 15%, the Ceravision lamp has an efficiency greater than 50%...it is expected to last longer than the devices into which it is inserted...another environmental advantage of the new design is that it does not need mercury
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so damn expensive & weak?

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 08 Feb 2010, 20:07:44

billg wrote:OK...it's already February 2010...where the heck can i find one of these bulbs?

Everlasting light:

http://www.regione.vda.it/energia/notiz ... o11ita.pdf

Sep 6th 2007
From The Economist print edition

Researchers have developed an environmentally friendly light bulb that uses very little energy and should never need changing...whereas traditional light bulbs emit just 5% of their energy as light, and fluorescent tubes about 15%, the Ceravision lamp has an efficiency greater than 50%...it is expected to last longer than the devices into which it is inserted...another environmental advantage of the new design is that it does not need mercury


A little googling found the following article, apparently they just finished a lawsuit over patent infringement.

LINK

To keep control of the technology they had jointly developed, Ceravision bought Digital Reflection’s assets in 2004.

Then came a disheartening discovery: an American company called Luxim. This had been set up by consultants employed by Ceravision and was based on confidential technology they had access to while working for Ceravision.

Luxim is backed by one of Silicon Valley’s most influential investors, Sequoia Capital, which has invested in some of the world’s successful technology firms including Google and Yahoo.

It had already filed a patent application in the United States for the technology. Ceravision sued.

This year, after trials in both America and the High Court in Britain, Luxim was forced to assign several patents back to Ceravision and make an undisclosed settlement.
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Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
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Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so expensive & weak?

Unread postby billg » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 08:42:18

From the article linked above:

The company has developed a lamp that uses microwaves to to heat gases inside a bulb and generate light. The plasma light does not need the electrode found in conventional bulbs.

It’s not a new concept; Nikola Tesla, Edison’s assistant, tried to make something similar — although he did not have easy access to today’s microwave-generators.

An “electrode-less” lamp means that there is nothing to break or discolour. The modern incandescent light still relies on an electrode that burns away, causing the colour to fade and the glass to burn. After about 1,000 hours it eventually breaks and needs to be replaced.
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so damn expensive & weak?

Unread postby billg » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 09:51:22

It's pretty lazy to pull out the conspiracy card just because things aren't going exactly the way YOU want it.

Waah, where's my water-powered car??? Where's my zero-point energy??? I'm entitled, man. I mean, human ingenuity is so boundless, this stuff has to already exist in some back room someplace. If this isn't in Wal-Mart then it must be a conspiracy!


You are merely projecting your own personal attitudes/ speculating as to others' motives...you don't really know any of us...you don't know what we do in our everyday lives. Entitlement??? what a joke.

If you really understood how ruthless a lot of these big corporations (Walmart being a good example) are when it comes to maximizing their wealth/power, you might get a little better insight into the possibility of suppression of technologies that could radically shift the balance of power between the people and their corporate overlords. It is as simple as that.
"It is no measure of health to be deemed sane in an insane society" J. Krishnamurti

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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so expensive & weak?

Unread postby lonewolf » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 11:26:22

So far I feel that LED's are a good investment. CFL, on the other hand, are a complete waste of resources and money. I've never had a single CFL bulb burn for more than 10 hours (not a typo) - seriously! I've tried at least 4 different 'brands' of CFL's and not one of them was worth a fart in a blizzard. The LED's I have seem to last and last with zero 'waste' heat generation and more than adequate luminosity. I've only had my LED's for about 3 years so far, but not a single one of them has ceased to function yet.
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so expensive & weak?

Unread postby gnm » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 12:08:57

Wolf, I've had at least one CFL which lasted 11 YEARS. No kidding - it was in a bathroom light fixture used daily (maybe on 1-2 hours a day sometimes more) I believe it was a phillips. Most of the ones I have get decent life and last 3-4 years with moderate use. I have recently been switching to LED and have some that only lasted a month (cheap Chinese tracer wiring on the mounts I believe - the individual led's still light) - that ticked me off. I look forward to switching to some of the warm white LED's as they become more reasonable.

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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so expensive & weak?

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 12:11:00

lonewolf wrote:So far I feel that LED's are a good investment. CFL, on the other hand, are a complete waste of resources and money. I've never had a single CFL bulb burn for more than 10 hours (not a typo) - seriously! I've tried at least 4 different 'brands' of CFL's and not one of them was worth a fart in a blizzard. The LED's I have seem to last and last with zero 'waste' heat generation and more than adequate luminosity. I've only had my LED's for about 3 years so far, but not a single one of them has ceased to function yet.

Maybe we can trade... I've had CFL's burn for hundreds of hours... I can't even remember when one has burned out recently.

On the other hand I think I have just one of 6 LED's still functioning 16 months after purchase.
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so expensive & weak?

Unread postby lonewolf » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 13:46:03

I've read the constant hype surrounding CFL's and contrast this with my direct experience. There is zero correlation. I have considered the possibility that my being off-grid may be partially responsible for the extremely short duration longevity I've experienced with CFL's. However, according to all I've read, my off-grid AC is far more stable (both voltage and frequency) than ANY grid-source. NO other load (equipment) has ANY problem with true-sine inverter outputs - NONE. Only the CFL's. I gave all the CFL's I once had away and deliberately stockpiled a 'life time' supply of incandescent bulbs for the few locations where I felt LED's would not be effective (sufficient lumens) - yet. Also, where possible, I use 12 VDC bulbs - automotive type - since it is far more efficient to use DC (from wind and PV) than converting battery storage to AC. Could my negative view on CFL's be power supply related? Sure. But I rather effing doubt it. OTOH, I have 17 LED bulbs (not including in flashlights) for about 3 years and not one of them has failed - yet. Most of these have been used for from 3 to 6 hours per day (seasonal correlation) - every day. No problem.

edit to add, I bought these LED's from Hong Kong off of E-Bay. And they were the cheapest ones I could find. Have no 'name' branding and I do not recall the vendor.
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so expensive & weak?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 15:05:10

lonewolf wrote:I've read the constant hype surrounding CFL's and contrast this with my direct experience. There is zero correlation.
...

Could my negative view on CFL's be power supply related? Sure. But I rather effing doubt it.

OTOH, the experience you report with such terrible results with CFL's is SO far off the profile of everyone I have ever discussed them with, that it makes me suspect there must be SOME unusual variable in your situation.

Have you tried more than one brand of CFL bulb? One room? One socket, etc?

My girlfriend got pissed when a relatively expensive (8 or 10 bucks) 150 or 200 (I forget which) CFL replacement bulb for her kitchen failed in about a year. It hung upside down, and was physically a big sucker which was different than all such bulbs I'd used.

I suggested we try again, and if it failed quickly again then we avoid them for THAT application. As it worked out, the replacement was fine, so it must have been one bad bulb. Thinking about it, I can't recall replacing another bulb of that type, and I've been converting to them for me, friends, and family for what seems like a decade or so.

When you consider the energy problems we have and how much electricity we could save the planet if everyone used efficient lighting WHERE APPLICABLE, it's just staggering the difference it can make, so I hate to just see people discard a whole technology or tell friends it sucks because of a personal experience.
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Re: Why the heck are LED bulbs still so expensive & weak?

Unread postby gnm » Tue 09 Feb 2010, 16:45:38

Wolf, it does sound like something unusual might be happening. I run a whole house inverter (Trace/Xantrex 4024) which is I believe a "modified sine wave" - not true sine but microstepped and is quite good - I do get some buzzing with inductive motors like ceiling fans but I have never had a problem with CFL's.

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