Key oil figures were distorted by US pressure-whistleblower

[mcgowanjm]

Yup. He also missed world gas production and US gas production by a mile, and so far at least one additional peak. Nearly the only place his method has worked has been oil production in the US.

GraphOilogy : The Hubbert Parabola has HL graphs for nations that fit well/don't fit well/are at too early a stage to tell. 9/20/21 out of 50 are in these respective categories.

I'd like to see those updated and EROEI put with each.

All investors know that it matters not just how much money you get back for your investment, but how soon. A 2x return in a couple of months is something to brag about, a 2x return over 30 years is a low-yield bond investment, and probably hasn’t even kept up with inflation.

The same is true for EROI, and means that users of EROI who are trying to compare future sources of energy with historic ones are probably taking an overly-optimistic view.

[shortonsense]

GraphOilogy : The Hubbert Parabola has HL graphs for nations that fit well/don't fit well/are at too early a stage to tell. 9/20/21 out of 50 are in these respective categories.

I'd like to see those updated and EROEI put with each.

As has been mentioned here before, EROEI at the field level, or country level for that matter, cannot be calculated until the field is empty and the person doing the calculating knows how much energy went in and how much energy came out. Not that it matters, considering how irrelevant EROEI is, but I just thought I would mention it.

All investors know that it matters not just how much money you get back for your investment, but how soon.

Yeah, but they don't use EROEI to measure success either.

[pstarr]

Hello everyone Just checking in with the troll. What's the bad boy up to now?

[shortonsense]

Hello everyone Just checking in with the troll. What's the bad boy up to now?

Apparently, having been skunked by MadDogs personal experience with lack of EROEI measures in the oil and gas biz, some are trying to expand it as a measure of success into the investor world. No proof provided ( of course ) but we are all hopeful some will be provided. Happy Holidays Pstarr!

[pstarr]

GraphOilogy : The Hubbert Parabola has HL graphs for nations that fit well/don't fit well/are at too early a stage to tell. 9/20/21 out of 50 are in these respective categories.

I'd like to see those updated and EROEI put with each.

As has been mentioned here before, EROEI at the field level, or country level for that matter, cannot be calculated until the field is empty and the person doing the calculating knows how much energy went in and how much energy came out. Not that it matters, considering how irrelevant EROEI is, but I just thought I would mention it.

All investors know that it matters not just how much money you get back for your investment, but how soon.

Yeah, but they don't use EROEI to measure success either.

I check in here occasionally and still find you repeating the same thermodynamic nonsense, perpetual energy. Shameful stuff. Do you really believe Maddog, a middle level manager at a filthy tar-sands operation is a the final word on modern science?

Fossil-fuel have been cheap for generations and we’ve lost respect for this one-time planetary gift. Soon we will not have the luxury of pricing a pint of precious gasoline less than a beer.

To gather Btu’s via labor and tool is the job of all organisms and industrial societies, and modern man no exception. Eroei is only really valid measure of primary energy acquisition. This has long been understood by biologists Malthus and Darwin, and extrapolated to industrial competition by Amory, Cleveland and Odum etc. Money is placeholder for work and resources capital, a marketplace convenience to measure present/future worth.

Your other remarks, here and in other discussions, are once again therefore suspect

[shortonsense]

Do you really believe Maddog, a middle level manager at a filthy tar-sands operation is a the final word on modern science?

Maddogs expertise veers into the technical as well as the managerial, and he has mentioned his work in shale gas quite extensively, and has experience pertinent to any question about the oil and gas business in general, particularly when compared to those who simply make up whatever fanciful story they wish and pretend its true. So yes....around here...unless contradicted by RocDoc or the like, is quite definitive.

Fossil-fuel have been cheap for generations and we’ve lost respect for this one-time planetary gift. Soon we will not have the luxury of pricing a pint of precious gasoline less than a beer.

Such is the claim...and at PO+5, I'm not even sure the inaccuracy of it matters anymore. Crude has been trending more expensive for 2 generations now, the other fossil fuels I haven't researched. But lets say that the BTU weighted average of all fossil fuel use has been "cheap" for generations....I would only venture that it is good that we have so much more left as we continue our transition to a cleaner and more renewable future.

Surely this makes sense to even you? With substantial supplies remaining to be tapped ( of fossil fuels, not just crude ) we have many options and quite a bit of time to decide what to transition into. Nukes, renewable, solar mixes perhaps?

Eroei is only really valid measure of primary energy acquisition.

In some alternate universe perhaps. Certainly humans don't use it that way in this one.

Your other remarks, here and in other discussions, are once again therefore suspect

How nice of you to refute me without using foul language! You are to be applauded for your restraint.....but as far as my remarks being suspect...well....I do try and stick to facts, and a minimum of speculation. Are you concerned with any particular facts related, in this thread, to how key oil figures were distorted, or how the timing of such a claim, might have been only a cheap shot without substantiation?

[pstarr]

Do you really believe Maddog, a middle level manager at a filthy tar-sands operation is a the final word on modern science?

Maddogs expertise veers into the technical as well as the managerial, and he has mentioned his work in shale gas quite extensively, and has experience pertinent to any question about the oil and gas business in general, particularly when compared to those who simply make up whatever fanciful story they wish and pretend its true. So yes....around here...unless contradicted by RocDoc or the like, is quite definitive.

So MD has a not-so-nice job for a not-so-nice oil-sands operation and is a friends of yours. Great! That you two pump questionable, filthy low-eroei enterprises which depend on cheap petroleum power (for infrastructure, support, and maintenance) for a quick buck should be applauded. Okay.

"Wow. Short. I am so impressed that you and MD make a living pumping dirty stuff out of the ground and pumping questionable investments." And did I forget? He's a friend of yours. Maybe you two should share an apartment and nest.

Fossil-fuel have been cheap for generations and we’ve lost respect for this one-time planetary gift. Soon we will not have the luxury of pricing a pint of precious gasoline less than a beer.

Such is the claim...and at PO+5, I'm not even sure the inaccuracy of it matters anymore. Crude has been trending more expensive for 2 generations now, the other fossil fuels I haven't researched. But lets say that the BTU weighted average of all fossil fuel use has been "cheap" for generations....I would only venture that it is good that we have so much more left as we continue our transition to a cleaner and more renewable future.

depends on your timeline. It was cheap in 1920, cheap in 1940, cheap in 1960, cheap in 1980 and started to get very expensive. 100 years of bad habits don't change easily.

Surely this makes sense to even you? With substantial supplies remaining to be tapped ( of fossil fuels, not just crude ) we have many options and quite a bit of time to decide what to transition into. Nukes, renewable, solar mixes perhaps?

Sure we have giants reserves of junk. You don't believe that 2 trillion barrels of stuff we can barely afford to use (low eroei and all that) will power a transition to stuff that is already too expensive to use. After all big nukes and little windmills are built with what?

All together now: Crude !

Eroei is only really valid measure of primary energy acquisition.

In some alternate universe perhaps. Certainly humans don't use it that way in this one.

That is ludicrous and I already explained why. Repeating misinformation endlessly does not change its status. Look it up.

Money is a measure of productive work. Energy is the fuel of work.

Your other remarks, here and in other discussions, are once again therefore suspect

How nice of you to refute me without using foul language! You are to be applauded for your restraint.....but as far as my remarks being suspect...well....I do try and stick to facts, and a minimum of speculation. Are you concerned with any particular facts related, in this thread, to how key oil figures were distorted, or how the timing of such a claim, might have been only a cheap shot without substantiation?

etc.

[shortonsense]

Fossil-fuel have been cheap for generations and we’ve lost respect for this one-time planetary gift. Soon we will not have the luxury of pricing a pint of precious gasoline less than a beer.

Such is the claim...and at PO+5, I'm not even sure the inaccuracy of it matters anymore. Crude has been trending more expensive for 2 generations now, the other fossil fuels I haven't researched. But lets say that the BTU weighted average of all fossil fuel use has been "cheap" for generations....I would only venture that it is good that we have so much more left as we continue our transition to a cleaner and more renewable future.

depends on your timeline. It was cheap in 1920, cheap in 1940, cheap in 1960, cheap in 1980 and started to get very expensive. 100 years of bad habits don't change easily.

The trend is clear. Certainly oil achieved its "beginning of cheap" with the discovery of East Texas field in 1930 or so...so the 20's? Nah...and it ended in the late 60's...trending upwards ever since. So 2 generations to change bad habits.....I think things are changing swimmingly...for example, you wouldn't happen to know how much per capita crude consumption has dropped in the US since cheap oil ended in the late-60's do you? Seems like using less is certainly a change...and one in the right direction.

Eroei is only really valid measure of primary energy acquisition.

In some alternate universe perhaps. Certainly humans don't use it that way in this one.

That is ludicrous and I already explained why. Repeating misinformation endlessly does not change its status. Look it up.

You only say look it up because you know it isn't possible...nobody uses EROEI measures for successful economic activity. Not even you.