[Nickel]

I just have no idea where you find this Past America of Unassailable Goodness.

Talk about straw men. I don't think anyone here ever espoused anything that naive. Certain I didn't.

But I can tell you that prior to circa 1960, the United States alone accounted for half the manufacturing done in the world. And I can tell you that the United States entered the 1980s as the greatest creditor nation in the world and left the 1980s as the greatest debtor nation in the world... a title it has only worked hard to entrench during subsequent Republican administrations (the current greatest creditor nation is that bastion of Marxist-Leninism, the People's Republic of China). And I can tell you the response to Hurricane Camille, at the height of the Vietnam War, stands in stark contrast to the response to Hurricane Katrina... and that's in spite of nearly 40 years of technological and logistical advancement in the interim. So no, we're not talking about the loss of a white knight here, but an able administrator, a resourceful provider, and an innovator to be followed. That's all been squandered and the only response to anything now is military force. Finesse and persuasion are gone.

[AgentR]

subsequent Republican administrations (the current greatest creditor nation is that bastion of Marxist-Leninism, the People's Republic of China)

Carl Marx just rose from the grave, screamed in horrible agony, and died once again of a heart attack. China is such a hodge podge of Oligarchy, capitalism, nepotism, and socialism, that "bastion" of anything is a huge stretch of the meaning of that word. (I'm a big fan of China, btw)

I also find it funny that we always seem to want to blame the weakest piece of the budget&spending equation for the overall balance of the budget. Not a penny can be spent without the approval and explicit direction of congress.

I did like how finances worked with a democrat president and a republican congress; that seemed to be the best financial combination to date. Dem/Dem, and Rep/Rep seem to be pretty aweful; Rep/Dem not too swift either.

And I can tell you the response to Hurricane Camille, at the height of the Vietnam War, stands in stark contrast to the response to Hurricane Katrina...

Katrina was physically a much nastier storm for a variety of reasons; the greatest of which was the much larger storm surge created by Katrina, and its the surge that created the result we all saw on TV.

That's all been squandered and the only response to anything now is military force. Finesse and persuasion are gone.

This is the difference in our opinions... I do not believe finesse and persuasion (other than by implied threat) were ever part of the American way of doing things. Brinkmanship, greed, power, and land-lust... Thats more along the lines of reality.

[Nickel]

It is not the job of government to make it all better. Its your job. Its my job. Personally. Individually.

Yeah, keep saying that, loud and long. Maybe you'll convince the world they didn't see a great power in decline abandon one of its own major cities, in which it took such pride for two hundred years, celebrated and sang about. Maybe you'll convince them "I meant to do that."

Maybe. But I doubt it.

[Nickel]

And I can tell you the response to Hurricane Camille, at the height of the Vietnam War, stands in stark contrast to the response to Hurricane Katrina...

I don't care if it rained snakes and marmalade and flaming fudge bags. The point is, in '69, relief was forthcoming. In '05, it came grudgingly, late, and in ineffective dribs and band-aid drabs.

Katrina was physically a much nastier storm for a variety of reasons; the greatest of which was the much larger storm surge created by Katrina, and its the surge that created the result we all saw on TV.

Hurricane Camille came ashore in nearly the place as Katrina, with a storm surge of 24 feet. Katrina's was 27.

This is the difference in our opinions... I do not believe finesse and persuasion (other than by implied threat) were ever part of the American way of doing things.

You don't know your history. The US grew very adept, particularly in the years after WWII, leading agendas by dint of its technological accomplishments, its overt championship of freedom (think cheering crowds to "Ich bin ein Berliner") — regardless of what it was doing behind the scenes — and the mutual advantages its economic prowess enabled it to extend to other countries. Those things needed to be built upon and honed. Instead, they were let go, largely in the Reagan era, to fund feel-good triumphalism. Bread and circuses. Rome's burning? Never mind; here's Ronny with your fiddle! It's "mourning" in America!

Brinkmanship, greed, power, and land-lust... Thats more along the lines of reality.

It was always an element. Seems to be all that's left.

[AgentR]

Katrina was physically a much nastier storm for a variety of reasons; the greatest of which was the much larger storm surge created by Katrina, and its the surge that created the result we all saw on TV.

Hurricane Camille came ashore in nearly the place as Katrina, with a storm surge of 24 feet. Katrina's was 27.

There is much more to the word "large" than height. VOLUME is what kills. Height is only a single measurement at a single position, usually a maximum value used to give scale for the record books. What destroys stuff is the volume of water over the entire zone, and Katrina was much, much worse in this regards.

You don't know your history.

I know it just fine, we disagree on the interpretation of those events.

[AgentR]

Maybe you'll convince them "I meant to do that."
Maybe. But I doubt it.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that the US remains great and noble, I am asserting that it never was.

Still doesn't change the fact that abandoning New Orleans is the correct action to take. A noble government might do more to relocate the people involved in a compassionate way, but as it is, we let them fend for themselves figuring they'll either find a new place to call home, or will become one of the thousands(hundreds of thousands?) of disappeared homeless.

[Nickel]

I'm not trying to convince anyone that the US remains great and noble, I am asserting that it never was.

Yay, fine, consensus at last.

Still doesn't change the fact that abandoning New Orleans is the correct action to take.

Yeah, when you're broke and can't do anything else, walking away always is the "correct" action. Whitewash it as "Fort Sensible" if you like; the world knows what it knows.

But assuming you to be on the money for the moment.... on what basis does the US criticize Burma for its actions? Or any government, for that matter? I'm just asking...

[Nickel]

There is much more to the word "large" than height. VOLUME is what kills.

Oh, so now it's no longer convenient to attribute it merely to "surge"; we need a whole new modifier to safe face, do we? Fine, fine. Volume is now what kills, is it? Well, so is not showing up AFTER the "volume", as per Burma, as per New Orleans.

[AgentR]

There is much more to the word "large" than height. VOLUME is what kills.

Oh, so now it's no longer convenient to attribute it merely to "surge"; we need a whole new modifier to safe face, do we? Fine, fine. Volume is now what kills, is it? Well, so is not showing up AFTER the "volume", as per Burma, as per New Orleans.

I am telling you the flat out truth, the storm surge from Katrina was much, much LARGER than the storm surge from Camille. Katrina's surge covered a much larger area, came from multiple directions, and was held in place for a much greater length of time.

I couldn't give a flying flip about what the US and Burma say to each other.. a pair of messed up countries mouthing off at each other is hardly worthy of interest.

[Nickel]

I couldn't give a flying flip about what the US and Burma say to each other.. a pair of messed up countries mouthing off at each other is hardly worthy of interest.

The bottom line for me is this. The whole "it's always been like this, nothing's out of the ordinary, it only makes good sense" line papers over a decline in responsiveness and ability. Camille was a stronger storm, with higher winds, lower barometric pressure over land (all time record for the US when it crossed over St. Louis), and made landfall as category 5 instead of 4 as Katrina did, and in nearly exactly the same place. But the world remembers the US recovering from Camille, not muttering with its hands in its pockets and wandering away. Something changed in those thirty-odd years, and wasn't just surge and volume. It was manifest ability.

And if you don't care what Burma and the world thinks, why do you keep arguing it doesn't mean a thing and everything's fine, same as it ever was? Forgive me for saying, but it seems like an awful lot of words for something you don't care about at all.

[AgentR]

I Camille was a stronger storm,

If you believe that, there is really no point in going further. But I'll try, one last time, to help you understand the difference between the two storms.

higher winds, lower barometric pressure over land (all time record for the US when it crossed over St. Louis), and made landfall as category 5 instead of 4 as Katrina did,

A tornado is the minimalist extreme of this comparison. Stronger wind, lower pressure.. yet no where near as destructive or powerful as any hurricane.

SIZE of the storm matters, it matters a LOT. A large storm with weaker pressure gradiant, can move a lot more water than a small storm with a much stronger gradiant and wind speed.

The amount of water moved by Katrina dwarfs the amount of water moved by Camille.

[AgentR]

everything's fine, same as it ever was?

I've never suggested "everything's fine". I do suggest.. everything is just as it always has been.

As to quantity of words? I type very fast, and enjoy debates. Especially when someone, like you, sets up a past America that never existed, and keeps insisting that it did.

[Nickel]

[As to quantity of words? I type very fast, and enjoy debates. Especially when someone, like you, sets up a past America that never existed, and keeps insisting that it did.

Well, there's nothing I can do about your personal misanthropy. But I can tell you that the response to Katrina was clearly out of the world's experience of the United States, and I think that was true for most people in the country itself as well. It's quite clear to me that the general consensus is that the ball was dropped, big time. Like it or not. Insisting, as you do, that we shouldn't have been surprised doesn't convince me. We were, and that's that. Hence the comment from Eric Margolis's column.

[Nickel]

The amount of water moved by Katrina dwarfs the amount of water moved by Camille.

You're simply splitting hairs. We have two storms of nearly identical size and characteristics, that came ashore just opposite sides of a state line from each other. The meat of the issue is not in the fine points of meteorology, it's about that fact that historically, the US has seen to emergency after emergency after emergency with more or less adroit and timely responses, to the point that its citizenry and that of the world expected more when Katrina hit and were shocked by the inadequacy of the response. Your telling us not to be doesn't change that. We KNOW something is different. We KNOW the response would have been more robust a generation or two before than what we saw. Resources are being wasted, misapplied, and a government preoccupied with expensive imperial adventures abroad is neglecting the fundamentals at home.

[AgentR]

The amount of water moved by Katrina dwarfs the amount of water moved by Camille.

You're simply splitting hairs.

No. There is nothing hair splitting about the difference between the amount of water moved by those two storms.

They were very different storms. I'm sorry it doesn't work into your thesis about America declining or whatever, zilch to zero doesn't seem like much of a decline to me anyway, but whatever.

Katrina was vastly more destructive than Camille; thats all there is to it.

[AgentR]

But I can tell you that the response to Katrina was clearly out of the world's experience of the United States, and I think that was true for most people in the country itself as well.

Now we are getting closer to agreement; but that expectation was based upon unrealistic, hyped-up, rose-colored memories; not reality. The world expected something that wasn't going to happen, and would not have happened at any time in this countries history.

What is different, between then, and now, is that a a good portion of the living sorrow made it onto TV so that we all got to see it.

ball was dropped, big time.

Thats also true; however, the ball would never have been held-onto at any time; and for the most part, never has been held onto. Its not my fault folks of previous times were content to allow their opinions be formed by news-reels with chipper music, and an upbeat narrator.

we shouldn't have been surprised doesn't convince me. We were, and that's that.

Oh, thats also true enough. The public and world were surprised. Stupidly surprised, but surprised, none the less. Again, they bought a line fed to them; that never had to stand up to harsh scrutiny before; then the cameras ran and displayed the REALITY of disaster.

Get used to seeing it. Natural forces can always overwhelm the response abilities of any nation; and from now on, there will be cameras there to record every failure, every tragedy, and every injustice along the way for us to revel in, to distance ourselves from, "oh, THEY ought to save those people.", "THEY ought to do something."; "how can THEY let that happen?!?!"; "Hun, get me a coke out of the fridge."; "OUTRAGEOUS!!! How can it be!".

[Nickel]

No. There is nothing hair splitting about the difference between the amount of water moved by those two storms.

So what were the volumes of water moved by those two storms?

Katrina was vastly more destructive than Camille; thats all there is to it.

Yes, so you keep saying... and saying... never actually establishing, but yes, saying...

And, again, it's not the point. The lack of response relative to past events is. Want to talk about that? Or just how far inland knees got wet in one particular event?

[Nickel]

Now we are getting closer to agreement; but that expectation was based upon unrealistic, hyped-up, rose-colored memories; not reality.

"Rose-coloured memories"? Of what? The Chicago Fire, the San Francisco Earthquake, the response of New England to the Halifax Explosion, Pearl Harbor, the Alaska Earthquake, Mt. St. Helens, 9/11? People remember shock, horror, great sorrow, and mobilization. Relief. Not lingering pictures of tortured, forgotten people, and wondering "why isn't anything being done? Why isn't it being put right?" There's nothing rose-coloured about that. It's a stark contrast, and that's why people comment on it as a telling point.

The world expected something that wasn't going to happen

But something past experience clearly informed them should and would, which is why they were so shocked that it did not, which flies directly in the face of: "and would not have happened at any time in this countries history." Which I've just noted, time and time again, was not the case. And that's without, with the sole exception of the Halifax Explosion, taking into account events outside the US to which it responded.

What is different, between then, and now, is that a a good portion of the living sorrow made it onto TV so that we all got to see it.

Welcome to the 1960s.

[btu2012]

rats, rats...

Wow man, such hatred of others.

[btu2012]

AgentR...

It's obvious to anyone (and by this I mean the governments of other countries) that the US is in bad shape economically, politically and socially. To pretend otherwise, AgentR, is wishful thinking to the n-th degree (where n--->infinity !).

Now this doesn't mean that the US will crash in the manner of the Soviet Union, but it certainly does mean that some peoples' ambitions at "world domination" are kaput. Get used to that AgentR, and move on. Concentrate on making the US survive peak oil as a non-hegemonic entity.

Yes, Katrina was a shocking display of incompetence and incapacity, not to mention social cruelty, and that has been duly noted by all governments in this world. There's no way to paper that over, and such attempts only make things look even more pathetic.

The US has a problem, and it ain't a minor one. Mere survival instinct ought to motivate its citizens to take a serious look at what went wrong.

Regarding soft power, which you seem to have no understanding of, you might wish to take a look at what the EU has been doing meanwhile. Many people think that some of the economical and financial PTBs have given up on the US and are quietly moving their show to Europe. That could deliver a major blow to the US economy if things continue the way they are. This isn't a videogame.

America's attempt to control ME oil has already failed, it's just that some people keep being in denial of that. In fact one also has to consider some unintended consequences of that stupid move, such as:

-the ME as a whole is now mighty pissed with the US, to a degree which hasn't been seen in the past

-given the increasing price of oil and the reserves of the region, the ME is likely to accumulate gigantic financial reserves in the medium term future, which could finance spectacular military developments in that region, to the extent of making some nations there into major powers

-given the obvious and declared threat brought on by the region's oil resources, further attempts to control it might provide enough stimulus for a sort of Arab confederation, which would be a redoubtable force.

Maybe it's time for the US to consider a serious change of attitude regarding its ME policy.

It also needs to be said that the US has nothing to gain by alienating Europe and Canada, so its citizens also need to look very carefully into why so many Europeans and Canadians are gradually loosing the respect which they used to have for the US. Other countries aren't interested in being bullied by the guy with the biggest guns.

And if guns are the issue at hand, then you can rest assured that the EU can build a rather formidable set of toys in a very short time, just to make it clear that they are tired of being pushed around. This warning applies both to the US and to Russia.

Btu