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Hybrid Hype

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 22:23:04

Dub, it may be to your benefit to stop with the insults. Those are in violation of the forum rules.


Just go thru a stack of old Popular Mechanics to see it for yourself. Oh but the DriveElectric guy wants us to trust that his techno hype will come for real this time. He's got the research in a lab somewhere to prove it!


It isn't just research. There exist thousands of on-road examples nation-wide that function and operate, that weren't built in factories or laboratories. There also exist examples of projects that are in progress, one of them being my own. Take a look at a few of them.

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/

Google these following words DriveElectric: Pemintel, EROIE, "Agricultural oil dependence", Soil degradation, water scarcity


EROI is excellent for industrial hemp. It may not yield as much per acre as palm, but it can be grown on desert land unsuitable for other plants, needs no fertilizers, needs no pesticides, and yields a much higher EROI than any plant out there. Hemp also would help prevent further soil erosion, and is not water intensive like soy or canola would be. Water scarcity can be drastically reduced by lowering environmental pollution which renders unfit for consumption fresh water, and by eating less meat, which livestock is a much heavier consumer of water than food derived from plants. Cutting industrial processes by increasing efficiency also cuts water used in industrial processes.
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Unread postby dub_scratch » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 23:04:04

The_Toecutter wrote:EROI is excellent for industrial hemp. It may not yield as much per acre as palm, but it can be grown on desert land unsuitable for other plants, needs no fertilizers, needs no pesticides, and yields a much higher EROI than any plant out there. Hemp also would help prevent further soil erosion, and is not water intensive like soy or canola would be. Water scarcity can be drastically reduced by lowering environmental pollution which renders unfit for consumption fresh water, and by eating less meat, which livestock is a much heavier consumer of water than food derived from plants. Cutting industrial processes by increasing efficiency also cuts water used in industrial processes.


Hmmm. . . . . . OK everybody, lets switch to a vegiterian diet in order to keep having so much fun being stuck in traffic jams. What a deal! And while we are at it, we'll keep pouring our national wealth on all the good stuff we love, freeway ramps, parking lots, parking garages, collision shops, emergency rooms, lawyer offices. Oh, and forget that solar PV collector too. You just won't be able to afford it after forking over the few bucks you have for one of these sustainable bio-hybrid-hyper-ethanol-diesels. You'll just have to sit in the dark between driving times.

Somehow Mr Toecutter, I think your promises for bio-fuel happy motoring will fall short-- way short-- of what you are expecting. I guess it's just that damn past 50 years of failed techno-visions that have made me so skeptical. I've heard it all before. And when it fails what then? Will we all have to become starvitarians so we can keep our beloved solo driving habbits?
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Unread postby mgibbons19 » Wed 06 Jul 2005, 23:22:31

This thread has suddenly become quite troubling. Mostly because both sides are making good points while being fairly onoxious toward the other. Could cars be made better? yes, certainly. and toejam's electric cars are a really cool example. But what's implied here that is negative about cars is twofold. First, their true costs are not realized. The parking, paving, EMTs, freeways, and so on are all publicly funded so the average citizen has no idea what his/her car is costing. Esp since they try very hard not to add up in their heads the lease/loan costs, gas costs, toll costs, maintenance costs, and insurance costs. These costs add up to so much that they must be depressing to the average American. Better just pay it and don't think about it too much. After all, a car here is a necessity.

Secondly, cars set up a market for space that is also not realized by the general public. Freeways in town = less good town. Parking all over town = negative urban space. Cars require so much space in cities that their accomodation destroys cities. But the average citizen experiences this only as "they need more parking here" and "this neighborhood is really friggin scary" without ever seeing that the two are connected.

Implied in this second point is that cities don't have to suck. They can be beautiful. They can be comfortable. They can be scaled intimately but not cramped. The suburbs may be a great solution to 1898 Manhattan, but why are we building in reaction to 1898 Manhattan? Simply because the average American (myself included) has a knee-jerk reaction to cities as evil.

This is the point that is missed with the name-calling and vitriol. Money spent on more freeways more parking lots more strip malls more bestbuys more walmarts represents money not spent on grassroots retail, on responsible individual homeownership, on pleasant neighborhoods with pleasant parks and so on. Money spent on widescale mileage incentives is not money spent on light and heavy rail.

Ppl will always travel 20 mins to work. The tail end of the curve will always travel 60+. It doesn't matter if it's on foot for 1-4 miles of walking or its in helicopters for 20-200 miles away. This is why we cannot solve the problems with technology. Because the market equilibrium is a balance of time and space - not technology.

And this is why, even though I am a biker, toejam's point is essentially correct. Cars as recreation, for the well to do, or mechanically inclined, are not a problem. Cars as the entireity of our transportation and urban infrastructure is the problem.

Sorry for the long post, but this is one of my pet issues, and both sides deserve a fair and respectful argument.
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Unread postby dub_scratch » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 00:22:54

mgibbons19 wrote:Sorry for the long post, but this is one of my pet issues, and both sides deserve a fair and respectful argument.


Don't be sorry, mgibbons19. That was a beautifully well put observation. Thanks for giving me hope that there are people who can see the forest beyond the trees.

I like to think it all in fun, but perhaps my vitriol reflects a bit of frustration with many Americans, especially intelligent well intentioned ones I run into. I cannot figure out how so many of these folks can go to Europe, to the amazing towns like Barcelona or Prague and see that urban life is so much better there and then come back here and insist on keeping this unproductive system of car dependence. Do they not see the negative effects beyond motor fuel consumption or tailpipe emissions? Do they not know why wealthy Western Europeans use half of the petroleum on a per capita basis? Do they not know that Europeans work less because they spend so much less on motoring than we do?

But we have this mess of a system and I guess we'll keep tinkering with it until the whole thing collapse and we have to start over. What folks like Toecutter do not realize that everything he is working for in regards to tinkering with fuel economy and fuel substitutes is in service of a collapse., albeit a slow one. I just wish that we as a society would realize this and decided instead to skip this last dreadful step, step back, take a good look, see that we don't need this, and get rid of it. I did and I absolutely have no need for anything like a biofuel car.
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 01:19:22

dub_scratch wrote:I just wish that we as a society would realize this and decided instead to skip this last dreadful step, step back, take a good look, see that we don't need this, and get rid of it. I did and I absolutely have no need for anything like a biofuel car.


I'm with you dub, keep up the fight. We gotta keep punching the car proponents until they go down. Cars are a virus.
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Unread postby bentstrider » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 02:54:59

JohnDenver wrote:
dub_scratch wrote:I just wish that we as a society would realize this and decided instead to skip this last dreadful step, step back, take a good look, see that we don't need this, and get rid of it. I did and I absolutely have no need for anything like a biofuel car.

I'm with you dub, keep up the fight. We gotta keep punching the car proponents until they go down. Cars are a virus.


While I get you two are saying, I'm going to keep my '68 Chevy 1/2 ton on hand up until the day some punk-ass trick blows it up(the only way to kill it).
I only drive this thing about twice a week, or when I feel like going 50+miles(very rarely).
Everywhere else, I ride a bike or walk it.(walking especially helps when the wind is acting like a wall on bike rides!)
As for my truck, I tend to agree with bio-fuels.
I'll conjure up some of my own shine like po' folks did in Georgia many years ago. This got some of them through that 70's gas crunch.
Hell, I see moonshine and hemp-oil, along with consume-able tobacco and alcohol as the grease of tommorrow's gears.
As for hybrids, they're worth, but 2 bottles of piss if it weren't for the battery!!
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Unread postby Starvid » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 03:21:56

Hehe, it's quite funny that some of you believe that more efficient cars will increase our oil problems. I sure hope you people drive Hummers! :lol:
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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Unread postby The_Toecutter » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 03:44:19

Hmmm. . . . . . OK everybody, lets switch to a vegiterian diet in order to keep having so much fun being stuck in traffic jams. What a deal! And while we are at it, we'll keep pouring our national wealth on all the good stuff we love, freeway ramps, parking lots, parking garages, collision shops, emergency rooms, lawyer offices. Oh, and forget that solar PV collector too. You just won't be able to afford it after forking over the few bucks you have for one of these sustainable bio-hybrid-hyper-ethanol-diesels. You'll just have to sit in the dark between driving times.


That's hardly what I'm saying at all. I'm not seeking to keep dependence on the car itself. I'd like to see the car no longer the main option for transport, but for it to take a backseat for liesure purposes while bikes and rail take their place as the main form of transportation. Besides, you don't need to sacrifice prime land to fuel an electric car, either, and biofuels for cars or not, we will need to reduce our excessive meat consumption as the amount of land and energy it consumes is also not sustainable. Factory farms are the worst of it, aside from being dangerous to the environment and highly energy intensive per calorie of meat, they also breed dangerous strains of bacteria resistant to practically all medicines we have developed along with threats such as mad cow disease by not meeting feed guidlines and feeding ruminates parts of other ruminates...

Somehow Mr Toecutter, I think your promises for bio-fuel happy motoring will fall short-- way short-- of what you are expecting. I guess it's just that damn past 50 years of failed techno-visions that have made me so skeptical. I've heard it all before. And when it fails what then? Will we all have to become starvitarians so we can keep our beloved solo driving habbits?


The problem with these failed technovisions is that they relied on technology that didn't exist in their time, but would have purportedly become viable in the future. What I am referring to is technology that is from both the past and the present that has been repeatedly and successfully demonstrated outside of laboratories and factories in both past and present tense. To think we'd have to starve to continue our driving habits is ludicrous, but depending on how we approach the peak crisis and how much we reduce the amount of driving done and by eliminating an outright need for an automobile, we don't have to be faced with that option.

But what's implied here that is negative about cars is twofold. First, their true costs are not realized. The parking, paving, EMTs, freeways, and so on are all publicly funded so the average citizen has no idea what his/her car is costing. Esp since they try very hard not to add up in their heads the lease/loan costs, gas costs, toll costs, maintenance costs, and insurance costs. These costs add up to so much that they must be depressing to the average American. Better just pay it and don't think about it too much. After all, a car here is a necessity.

Secondly, cars set up a market for space that is also not realized by the general public. Freeways in town = less good town. Parking all over town = negative urban space. Cars require so much space in cities that their accomodation destroys cities. But the average citizen experiences this only as "they need more parking here" and "this neighborhood is really friggin scary" without ever seeing that the two are connected.


I agree with all points made. I feel I need to clarify my views, I'm not contending with anything you have said. The high maintenance associated with cars doesn't need to be that way, and with adequate public transit and bike specific lanes, and reshaping our cities to be built around people and public transit instead of the automobile, we can drastically cut car use. Sure, we may have the grid capacity for over 100 million electric cars today, but I'm certainly not recommending America should have that many or more. I think cutting on-road automobiles down to about 50 million, still affordable to the portions of the middle class that want them, but not necessary, would be a boon, but still keep the racers and hobbyists happy. Our cities are far too dependent on cars and that needs to change. It was the auto industry itself that is responsible for the predicament we are in by tearing down the mass transit and forcing Americans to become reliant on the auto. Suburbia is thus a symptom of corporate greed and government stupidity(Eisenhower), and not due to use of the automobile itself.

Cut the car use and have it no longer a necessity, and we don't need these bigass hulking freeways or anywhere near the amount of road maintenance or parking availability that we see today. Maybe a few high speed audobon-like highways would suffice to compliment highspeed electric rail, but we wouldn't need to have anywhere near the number of roads and highways we have today with cutting the number of on-road cars in the U.S. to 50 million or so. Most of them would likely be sports cars and muscle cars made specifically for sporting and recreational purposes only occassionally(< 20% of the time) being used as a means of transport for long distances. Those that don't have or want them would fare just as well taking trains for either short or long commutes or riding bikes for short commutes since adequate infrastructure for these things would negate the need for a car.
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Unread postby The_Toecutter » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 03:45:31

Money spent on more freeways more parking lots more strip malls more bestbuys more walmarts represents money not spent on grassroots retail, on responsible individual homeownership, on pleasant neighborhoods with pleasant parks and so on. Money spent on widescale mileage incentives is not money spent on light and heavy rail.


Indeed. The end of cheap oil, assuming our society makes it through, would mean a need to return to local economies. The current forced auto-reliance goes directly against this. As a side note, Walmarts love moving into small towns. The price everything just below profit when initially moving in, drive the smaller businesses out of business, then they begin the layoffs and surge their prices up higher than the local businesses would have charged when they were around. Car use as we know it today contributes to this phenominon.

What folks like Toecutter do not realize that everything he is working for in regards to tinkering with fuel economy and fuel substitutes is in service of a collapse., albeit a slow one. I just wish that we as a society would realize this and decided instead to skip this last dreadful step, step back, take a good look, see that we don't need this, and get rid of it. I did and I absolutely have no need for anything like a biofuel car.


Not necessarily true. It is up to our society to correctly use this technology, and not greedily exploit it. Collapse isn't an effect of consumption alone, it is an effect of irresponsible consumption. The same can be said for automobiles. They simply should not be a requirement to go about your day to day business, but that doesn't mean they should be or need to be eliminated altogether, especially if their usage in the future is responsible, accountable to society and the environment.

Some people see cars as a virus, but that is not true. Our unsustainable economic system that relies on unlimited is the virus, and gross misuse of cars is a symptom of this virus.


I hope we do enough to avert a peak crisis so that some semblence of our current lifestyle can be saved, the good things like computers, television, electricity, ect., while the bad things like suburbia, encroachment into wilderness, and endless expansion go away like the dinosaurs they are. But, we could be going back to the iron age, even though it doesn't need to be that way. It's time our society became responsible instead of being so thoughtless as it is today.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Unread postby JohnDenver » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 04:49:40

The_Toecutter wrote:To think we'd have to starve to continue our driving habits is ludicrous, but depending on how we approach the peak crisis and how much we reduce the amount of driving done and by eliminating an outright need for an automobile, we don't have to be faced with that option.


This is where your approach is all screwed up. Why are we going to reduce the amount of driving done, and design walkable living arrangements when we have all this wonderful technology like high-mileage vehicles and electric cars and hybrids? You seem to be saying that we need some self-control, but how likely is that? It's like switching from Marlboro to Marlboro Light. We'll just keep smoking and still die of cancer.

You have to get off the fence. You can't tout the wonders of efficient vehicles and the importance of car-free living at the same time. It's logically inconsistent.
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Unread postby mgibbons19 » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 08:22:13

dub_scratch wrote:
mgibbons19 wrote:Sorry for the long post, but this is one of my pet issues, and both sides deserve a fair and respectful argument.


Don't be sorry, mgibbons19. That was a beautifully well put observation. Thanks for giving me hope that there are people who can see the forest beyond the trees.

I like to think it all in fun, but perhaps my vitriol reflects a bit of frustration with many Americans, especially intelligent well intentioned ones I run into. I cannot figure out how so many of these folks can go to Europe, to the amazing towns like Barcelona or Prague and see that urban life is so much better there and then come back here and insist on keeping this unproductive system of car dependence....

But we have this mess of a system and I guess we'll keep tinkering with it until the whole thing collapse and we have to start over.... I just wish that we as a society would realize this and decided instead to skip this last dreadful step, step back, take a good look, see that we don't need this, and get rid of it. I did and I absolutely have no need for anything like a biofuel car.


Indeed, I do fully 100% agree with you. From Kunstler and New Urbanist rants against Disneyworld "main streets" to my own town, wanting to widen every street around, speed up the crosstown, all while the city schools lose funding, the city loses population to the next suburb over, and they fight over where to get the several hundred million dollars to put a freeway link in to the capitol. Ppl just cannot connect the dots and it is a tremendous frustration.

Head, meet brick wall.
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Unread postby Kez » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 10:22:29

More efficient cars won't solve the problem. If kids growing up never have to carpool, walk, bike, and whatnot to get around, they will grow up as spoiled as everyone else. This means more cars will be on the road, each burning energy. The overall energy burned may go down, but the other costs render that pointless.

Meanwhile, roads will be increased and millions will be spent on them. In my area, they announced that they are $800 MILLION overbudget on 2 major roads. Think of all the gardens and bike-paths that could be built for what they are doing to just extend existing roads.

If cars get more efficient, it just means the continuance of one person - one car, and massive costs to build, repair, and maintain the roads.
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Unread postby bentstrider » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 16:25:24

Kez wrote:More efficient cars won't solve the problem. If kids growing up never have to carpool, walk, bike, and whatnot to get around, they will grow up as spoiled as everyone else. This means more cars will be on the road, each burning energy. The overall energy burned may go down, but the other costs render that pointless.

Meanwhile, roads will be increased and millions will be spent on them. In my area, they announced that they are $800 MILLION overbudget on 2 major roads. Think of all the gardens and bike-paths that could be built for what they are doing to just extend existing roads.

If cars get more efficient, it just means the continuance of one person - one car, and massive costs to build, repair, and maintain the roads.


More garden and bike paths would help make cycling and walking a helluva lot more enjoyable too.
I remember putting up a post where I ranted about riding into the wind.
Riding into the wind is especially painful if it's blowing on you faster than your bike is moving into it.
A tree shaded, cement'n'graded, bicycle/ped path would somewhat damper that problem.
But, it's always about catering to the cars.
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Zevon's paradox is bunk

Unread postby DoctorDoom » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 17:52:32

There's nothing to it. Economics 101 - if something costs less, demand goes up, if it costs more, demand goes down. Zevon's "paradox" says nothing more than the "cost less, demand up" part. What's relevant is to consider that in conjunction with the "cost more, demand down" part that we all know needs to happen as we go post-peak. Once that happens, technologies like hybrid cars will pull costs (per mile, not per gallon) in the opposite direction, thus allowing some level of the status quo for a while longer. The previous round of efficiency increases were indeed met with increased consumption because they happened pre-peak; with energy supplies abundant and greater efficiency in technology, both factors were pulling the supply/demand balance in the same direction (towards larger/heavier vehicles, long commutes, etc., etc.)
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Unread postby dub_scratch » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 20:04:14

JohnDenver wrote:
The_Toecutter wrote:To think we'd have to starve to continue our driving habits is ludicrous, but depending on how we approach the peak crisis and how much we reduce the amount of driving done and by eliminating an outright need for an automobile, we don't have to be faced with that option.


This is where your approach is all screwed up. Why are we going to reduce the amount of driving done, and design walkable living arrangements when we have all this wonderful technology like high-mileage vehicles and electric cars and hybrids?......

You have to get off the fence. You can't tout the wonders of efficient vehicles and the importance of car-free living at the same time. It's logically inconsistent.


I agree. The very claim by some of the Greencar advocates that they are also in favor of reduced car dependency is a confused position. Some of the biggest car preservation advocates, such a Amery Lovins, spend way more time advocating fleet replacements than alternatives to driving. I think there's not a lot of sincerity by those who claim to advocate Greencars and reduced car dependence.

Both strategies are not complimentary. In fact they really are conflicting and contradictory by nature. If we as a nation were to embrace the idea of drastically reducing car use, then any new car technology or alternate fuel scheme would have no value. Marginalizing the car also marginalizes the promised benefits of the Greencar. In such a paradigm shift away from car dependency, there would be no need for any new car. The current fleet of cars, including the most inefficient SUVs, would do just fine and would not make much of a difference.

The two strategies are conflicting, but one truly is superior over the other if we as a society were to get a grip of this PO problem. Toecutter shows us how he is personally engaged in a technology that he says can free us from the dependence of oil. Of course, this will take time, research, investment, energy and a few lucky brakes for this to pay out. While he's waiting and working on it, I happen to be actively doing my own scheme, which blows the doors of any bio-hybrid-electric-hyper-ethanol he can throw at us. I reduced my milage from 14k a year to less than 1K by moving my job three blocks down the street. I also live in a town with many of the goods and services I need accessible on foot. The net effect is that I spend very little time traveling and I hardly ever get in a car to do it. This is the same strategy used to make computers faster but done on the urban format. It works exactly the same way.

Batteries not included (and not needed either).
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Unread postby The_Toecutter » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 21:06:22

This is where your approach is all screwed up. Why are we going to reduce the amount of driving done, and design walkable living arrangements when we have all this wonderful technology like high-mileage vehicles and electric cars and hybrids?


You've got the cause and effect backwards. Suburbia(in America) did not succeed so greatly because of the automobile, but the automobile succeeded so greatly because of suburbia and the fact that the mass transit was torn down making the car into a necessity. Look at Japan where you live. There are plenty of cars, but no where near as many as America and your cities do not cater to them exclusively as America's cities do. Miles driven is much less as well. They look like they could use some improvements, yes, but unlike America, a car is not a necessity where you live, and thus people have the choice of whether or not they want to do without a car. Just look at the number of on-road cars per capita of Japan and compare it to America. Even if you were to eliminate the fuel costs, cars do not come cheap. In America, people often spend 1/3 of their incomes just to keep their cars going, not because they want to, but because it's difficult to find a job within walking or biking distance and our stores and other places of interest like schools are so far spread apart.


You seem to be saying that we need some self-control, but how likely is that?


As likely as any semblence of modern society is to survive peak oil. Adaptation or death. No one individual person or nation can change this outcome, but it will take a coordinated effort among everyone. So far the odds aren't looking too cheery.

It's like switching from Marlboro to Marlboro Light. We'll just keep smoking and still die of cancer.


It would be more akin to removing the addictive nicotine from the cigarettes altogether and maybe smoking once or twice a month as a social custom, if the hypothetical person in question would choose to smoke at all. Perhaps kill the laws and regulations and grow their own tobacco and make their own cigarettes while they're at it.

You have to get off the fence. You can't tout the wonders of efficient vehicles and the importance of car-free living at the same time. It's logically inconsistent.


This statement can be true or false depending on the mindset of the person in it is directed at and whether the one asking the question understands that mindset. It's not black and white, or only one single solution. It is using multiple solutions at the same time and having them compliment each other, instead of simply choosing one or two and discounting the rest of them. If the solution to the peak oil problem is viewed as a black and white issue, sure, you will find it logically inconsistent!
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Unread postby The_Toecutter » Thu 07 Jul 2005, 21:13:52

Both strategies are not complimentary. In fact they really are conflicting and contradictory by nature. If we as a nation were to embrace the idea of drastically reducing car use, then any new car technology or alternate fuel scheme would have no value. Marginalizing the car also marginalizes the promised benefits of the Greencar. In such a paradigm shift away from car dependency, there would be no need for any new car.


Sure it would have value. Peak oil is going to make gasoline prices go up. Once the oil is used, it is used. No amount of cutting car use will replace it. How expensive is gasoline going to be 10 years post peak? 20 years? Aside from the 'greencar', no one would be able to afford to drive them except the super rich. The electric and biodiesel automobile provides an outlet for hobbyists, racers, motorsports enthusiasts, ect. to enjoy the technology and the entertainment opportunities it provides. Keeping the car affordable allows that to be an option for the lower middle class as well, but since the majority aren't racers or motorsports enthusiasts, the majority wouldn't see a reason to buy cars if they can ride their bike one or two blocks to the nearest train and hop on for a much cheaper cost per mile.

The current fleet of cars, including the most inefficient SUVs, would do just fine and would not make much of a difference.


Except for the fact that post peak, you may not be able to get fuel for them.
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Unread postby deconstructionist » Thu 28 Jul 2005, 14:35:14

i agree that cars are a virus, and our society is infected well past the point of innoculation from this virus and we are not going to get rid of it. no, hybrid cars are not the answer. and no, GWB and SUVs are not the problem. the problem is the way we, as a global society, relate to the earth. we cannot exist without equilibrium, cars or none.

having said that--i am infected with this virus. the world i live in is organized around it... i take public transportation to work and i drive 2 miles each way to and from the commuter lot. 20 miles a week minimum driving. not too bad. however, i live in a community where it is near impossible to exist without a vehicle. and many of my friends live a good 45 minute (drive) away. i used to live in a city (brooklyn) but i hate city life, other than a good music scene and being able to walk or take public transport everywhere. but that's neither here nor there... i've made the decision to participate in mainstream society and not live in an urban center. i drive as little as possible, but if i'm going to have to drive a car to participate in society, i want to drive a hybrid car and pour some goddamned biodiesel into it!!!
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Classic Cars to Hybrids?

Unread postby greenergy » Thu 22 Feb 2007, 18:46:05

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Re: Classic Cars to Hybrids?

Unread postby I_Like_Plants » Fri 23 Feb 2007, 02:09:23

So.... you gonna buy that domain?
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