[dwenergyman]

http://peakoil.com/post6466.html#6466

[dwenergyman]

Taken for a Ride: Detroit's Big Three and the Politics of Air Pollution
by Jack Doyle

It's about the politics of pollution. A throughly documented account of what really happened between our government and the Big Three since the clean air act passed long ago. It's a must read foundation of facts and some opinions by Jack Doyle and others to understand where we've been and how we got to where we are now, and the big 3's unbridled attempts to do as little as possible or even less. Foot draging and kicking and screaming is what they call it and by gosh it worked most of the time.

Get a used or new paperback copy and read it, I did.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 3?v=glance

[notacornucopian]

dwenergyman - being an asthmatic, I pay attention to the daily air quality indicator so, yeah, pollution of all types is an issue. However, I am still not able to understand why that has relevance in a discussion regarding the viabilty of hybrid electric vehicles. Am I just not getting it ?

[dwenergyman]

Guest wrote:

"Now take the next logical step and combine a diesel with hybrid (preferribly interior pm machines) and see yet another incremental improvement!"

One major problem with diesels is that they emit small partical soot, a know carcinogen and something that even our EPA is warning us about right now.

Nearly 100 million in United States are breathing particulates, says EPA http://www.enn.com/news/2004-07-01/s_25446.asp

Diesels have a much higer compression ratio and are much more efficent than a gasoline engine due to this but you should also know that the Toyota Prius uses the atkinson engine cycle[ http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/MyTo ... ustion.htm ]and the engine gets to operates at a much narrower and more efficent rpm range due to the electric assist motor which increases its ability to make more of the gasoline it burns and reduce emissions. The emission reduction of a HEV is much more than just the percentage of lesser fuel used and that should not be overlooked IMO. The Prius engine specs give it a 13/1 compression ratio, not bad if you ask me.[ http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2004/prius/specs.html ]

I might also add that the I have heard that the diesel engine has great potential for becoming a very efficent hydrogen fueled power plant sometime in the future with some more R&D in that direction.

[dwenergyman]

Hybrid Hype? Toyota's Response

Source: Toyota
[Jul 04, 2004]

Fact and Fiction Surrounding the New Technology


While hybrid vehicles are making history, they're also sparking a lot of mystery. As the public discovers and investigates hybrids, many questions are being asked about the new technology.

Below are some of the questions that have been raised about hybrid vehicles, as well as the answers.

Do hybrids meet their EPA fuel ratings?

The EPA's laboratory fuel mileage tests were initiated more than 25 years ago to provide a means for consumers to make valid fuel-mileage comparisons between vehicles. Posting of mileage numbers on the window sticker is required by law. Auto industry practice has consistently been to use the EPA-provided numbers to assure a level playing field.

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section ... ewsid=5994

note what toyota says about diesels and emissions in this article

[small_steps]

note what toyota says about diesels and emissions in this article

But also note why Toyota implemented hybrid R&D:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/artic ... 70,00.html
corporate survival

Aso note the url of the site we are at:
peakoil.com

While environmental issues are important, they [appear] to be of secondary importance, where the primary importance is making through this upcoming transition (to what... unknown... maybe foot power)

[OilBurner]

I wouldn't be too concerned about what Toyota has to say about diesels. The Japanese have long been diesel haters (more so than the US) and prefer to push gasoline/petrol technologies.
Here in Europe we have the opposite situation. Instead of whinging about pollutants, makers like VW and Mercedes-Benz (DaimlerChrysler) are working on systems to supress NOx or storage catalysts to capture it.
Particulate filters are becoming the norm to meet Euro IV emission regulations and economy continues to be 40% better than a regular petrol engine. Use hybrid technology with diesel and you could be looking at 35% plus improvement over hybrid petrols.
Zero sulpher diesel fuel will help emissions too and ensure the Urea technique works.
See:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040417/news_lz1d17diesel.html

Don't forget that diesels output less CO2 than petrols too - such that they are favoured in many European taxation schemes that are aimed at cutting pollution.

Another plus, diesel engines are tougher and longer lasting than petrol engines, and so that potentially means cars spending longer on the road and less being built in a factory - another plus for the environment. There are many reasons for this extra durability, one fundamental reason is the fact that the engines are unstressed. I can drive my diesel car at 30mph in fith gear using no more than 1100rpm. Thanks to the huge amount of torque low-down in the revs, the car isn't labouring or stalling and the engine is barely ticking over. Even at 70mph in fifth gear, the car is still doing no more than 2500rpm.
This amount of torque and the low-revs required make modern diesels very driveable too. So, there's no compromises to make - in fact the overtaking ability is amazing.

I'm amazed that 5 US states have banned the sale of diesels - this is very short sighted. The new emissions control technologies and still improving power will see diesels becoming the engine of choice in Europe.

There is also another important consideration: congestion.
With all roads becoming ever busier, cars are driving more of their journeys at low speed whilst the engine is cold. Diesels produce less pollutants whilst they are cold and yet warm up quicker:
http://text.islington.gov.uk/html/airquality/december/december.html

Quote:
Diesel cars could make a significant impact on air quality in urban areas where most cold starts occur, especially when it is considered that a catalyst on a petrol car would take several minutes to reach its operating temperature

You just can't write off diesel. I don't see a near-term future where everyone drives petrol-electric hybrids. Rather, I see that people in Europe will continue with diesels (and the pollution control will improve) and avoid hybirds due to the extra cost in purchasing and maintenance.
In the US, hybrid gasoline engines will have large success (40-50% of the market) when fuel prises rise enough to make the extra purchase cost insignifcant. Soon, awareness of improving diesel technology will reach US law makers and diesel will take-off, taking a 5-10% chunk of the car/truck market.
Once infrastructure for diesel improves and attitudes change most world markets will harmonize to 40-50% diesel split with many cars being hybrid electric. And that includes the US. IMHO.

I think it's a good point too that we're concerned with Peak Oil and not the environment as such.
In this case diesel just makes perfect sense in trying to reduce oil consumption to maintain a plateau for as long as possible and ensure a smooth transistion to an oil free tomorrow.
No new technology required, just a willingness to ditch those big petrol V8s and a few pumps changed to DERV.

[Oily_Bill]

Diesel Engines also have the useful characteristic that they can run on almost anything. Used cooking oil will power Mercedes diesels perfectly well if filtered.....

[OilBurner]

Exactly, the versatility of these diesel engines (with little or no modification) is a major plus in a post-peak world.
Europe, with a far higher pc of diesels will be much more adaptable then the US and it's dominance of gasoline.
Yes, petrol engines can be adapted to run on methanol, but diesel units really will run on practically anything that combusts under compression.

[Guest]

The gas engine in a hybrid has been modified to use a different engine design. It uses the Atkinson as opposed to the Otto. It's inherently more efficient.

I'm not sure if diesels can be modified this way. Can they?

[The_Virginian]

Oilburner,

You beat me to it on modern deisel emisions not contributing to particulates as much as they once did.
here's what I found:

http://www.rvpower.com/Tech_todaysdiesel.cfm

How's that for "Rhetoric" "guest" and dw?

Here is a bit more:
http://www.greendieseltechnology.com/news166.html

Exactly what did this new study reveal?
This research found that a low-emitting diesel school bus, typical of those now being sold, had lower emissions of nitrogen oxides (NOx), particulate matter (PM), soluble organic fraction of PM (SOF), total hydrocarbons (THC), non-methane hydrocarbons (NMHC), methane and carbon monoxide (CO) than a bus fueled with natural gas.

and more:
http://www.greendieseltechnology.com/news168.html

(If others can bring toyota into the fray I can bring international truck! )


I am NOT against hybrids, just pro diesel. If a battery bank gets more out of a Diesel running off "McFuel"(bio-deisel) all the better. I see most of us agree on that.
[/quote]

[dwenergyman]

You beat me to it on modern diesel emissions not contributing to particulates as much as they once did.
here's what I found:
http://www.rvpower.com/Tech_todaysdiesel.cfm

Thanks for the above link V. I was aware of great strides made in leading edge diesel emissions over the last few year in general only and the great low costing eff. numbers too. Saying that the emissions are much improved sounds good on the surface, but what the real world emissions figures are compared to the same emission numbers from other choices is MUCH more important than the NEW IMPROVED TIDE type advertisement, if you know what I mean. The scientific community is just getting its act together on the cancerous effects of small particle soot and children and older people are much more vulnerable to these effects including alteration of the DNA of the exposed lung tissue. So i.e., less soot may be better than more soot but it's still a carcinogen that damages human health irreversibly and should be completely eliminated if at all possible.

The diesel industry is very mature and has had more than enough time to reduce its production costs while the opposite is true for EVs, HEVs etc. So I contend and so does Dr. Andy Frank that PHEVs would be a much better answer if given half a chance to scale up and mature. Saving a few bucks in the short term isn't everything, especially to the persons who get ill and/or prematurely die from these emissions exposure.

We need real world emission figures to do an honest comparison of the options and lets not forget that our Supreme Court ruled that reducing health exposure risks does not have to be subjected to cost analyst last year.

Without the real figures we cannot give it an honest comparison which it desperately needs and these figures must come from an independent source or two.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For Oil Burner: I realize that the Toyota article was very bias in their remarks about diesels and something else that escapes me at the moment. It seems that all companies do that in brief promotion articles like the one i quickly posted and they certainly need to be taken with a large grain of salt for the more informed.

BTW, GM is producing and selling HE Buses using diesels and I even got a chance to take a ride in one a few years ago. I did still smell the diesel fumes from this bus so I know something is still getting into my lungs from this lower emission bus. Seattle has 235 of these buses on order as we speak and should receive them all by the end of the year.

First GM Hybrid Transit Buses
Go to Work

The first GM hybrid transit buses are already operating in the Seattle area, with a total of 235 planned by the end of 2004.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.asp ... n&GT1=3584

[small_steps]

BTW, GM is producing and selling HE Buses using diesels and I even got a chance to take a ride in one a few years ago. I did still smell the diesel fumes from this bus so I know something is still getting into my lungs from this lower emission bus. Seattle has 235 of these buses on order as we speak and should receive them all by the end of the year.

First GM Hybrid Transit Buses
Go to Work

The first GM hybrid transit buses are already operating in the Seattle area, with a total of 235 planned by the end of 2004.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.asp ... n&GT1=3584

I remember seeing something like a traditional bus on a certain route would get 3.5 mpg, and a the GM HE bus would get 5 mpg, with about 10% of the emissions of the traditional diesel bus.

[The_Virginian]

less soot may be better than more soot but it's still a carcinogen that damages human health irreversibly and should be completely eliminated if at all possible.

The precautionary principle, merely as a precaution, I subscribe to that.

There is more of a chance we could find a way of getting realistic EPA tests, and further reduce harmful emissions (100% elimination from either Benzine or Diesels are doubtful ) from diesels than finding a hydrogen solution IMHO.

[OilBurner]

Thanks for the extra technical details V, I really enjoyed them!

One thing I need to throw in here as regards particulates (more as a question than a fact), I read somewhere (not scientifc so I won't link) that petrol engines produce significant particulates after 30-40,000 miles that are finer than diesel particulates and may actually be doing more harm in our lungs because they penetrate further.
The fact that you don't see clouds of black smoke and it doesn't effect the engine when it's new (and being emission rated) has hidden this problem.

Can anyone confirm or deny this position? I've tried googling for many a good hour and yet still cannot find anything to seriously back this idea up. However, that's not to say there isn't anything...

BTW dw, I am seriously of the belief that particulate filters and NOx storage catalysts are very close to bringing us the zero-emission (or close to it) diesel engine. CO2 will remain a problem, but output will remain less than petrol engines. Yes, HEV could improve further with more development, but until then diesel could be a better bet.
Also, yes you can make a diesel electric hybrid, see:
http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=10688

How about this baby:

Chrysler has displayed a hybrid-powered Dodge Ram at the UK's Defence Vehicle Dynamic show. The Ram Combatt 2 Hybrid, based on the full-sized 2500 (3/4 tonne) pick-up, combines a 5.9-litre Cummins diesel engine with a 10kW electric motor, which gives a portable AC power supply when the vehicle is stationary, idling or switched off - and can run silently. It can power equipment in areas with no mains supply. It also features hydro-pneumatic suspension which enables any single wheel to get over an obstacle up to three feet high.

I don't expect that diesel to return especially good mileage though!

[lowem]

Diesel vs hybrids again (and again, and again ... )

http://www.jroller.com/page/lowem/20040 ... brid_again

[lowem]

See this thread too :
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toy ... sage/74776

[Devil]

Potentially carcinogenic particulates in petrol (gas) engines are mostly burnt in the catalytic converter, even with old engines. That having been said, teh first few km may allow some particulates to pass under cold conditions, when the mixture is rich and the converter has not reached its operating temperature. One of the features of the Prius is that the engine is kept warm for many hours so as to reduce cold starting and thus particulate emissions, especially important for intermittent use.

Diesel engines, for equivalent power, are generally larger. For example, a well-known European car with a 1.8 l petrol engine offers the options of a 2 l or 2.2 l diesel. This, combined with the fact that diesel fuel has a considerably higher C:H ratio, means that the CO2 emissions are actually higher, even though the consumption in litres of fuel is lower. I don't believe the diesel, per se, is the answer to reducing pollution and, especially, greenhouse gases. Also, I understand that the present concept of hybrids does not even lend itself very well to diesels, which do not take very kindly to frequesnt starting and stopping.

As for consumption of hybrids. I've a friend in the US who has a Prius. He tells me that that his gas consumption in city driving is actually better than on the open road (typically ~62 mpg driving round Washington DC, as against ~53 when he has to do a weekly commute to Baltimore. This is because in highway driving the engine is running most of the time and he rarely has to slow down sufficiently to brake-charge the battery, whereas in town the engine rarely starts and the constant braking partially replenishes the battery which is discharged when the lights turn green and he starts moving again. OK, he is not a driver who has ever had the habit of putting his foot hard down on either pedal, although he drives at the speed limit where appropriate; he has always believed in anticipation when driving. He is delighted with his car and its consumption; he tells me that, even with today's prices, his gas bill has more than halved from his old Camry.

[OilBurner]

Devil, thanks for the info on petrol particulates. I was pretty sure there was something in it.

How are you saying that CO2 is higher in diesel engines? Capacity is nothing to do with it - only the CO2 g/km counts and diesels are very low here. Example, the diesel Astra 1.9 CDTI outputs 157 g/km of CO2, whilst the petrol Astra 1.6 outputs 158 g/km. For the record, the 1.9 CDTI is also much faster and is more economical. So, despite the larger capacity, the actual CO2 output is lower and the amout of fuel used is less. Sounds good to me!
Obviously a diesel cannot compete with the very low overall emissions of a petrol hybrid, but a diesel hybrid could.
I think it remains to be seen whether or not diesels can be readily adapted to hybrid technology. What is your reasoning that the engine doesn't take kindly to being re-started? Modern diesel ignition is so good that glow plugs hardly need to come on even when the engine is cold, and not at all when the engine has been warmed up.

Also, I'd just add that I saw an article on 4car http://tinyurl.com/5m7ff where they attempted to drive a Prius from John O Groats to Lands End (in the UK). On this journey they managed a respectable 68mpg. Sounds good? Well not quite. They overinflated the tyres to 45psi, removed the spare tyre and rear head restraints and folded the mirrors in whilst driving. They also avoided using the air-con, blower motor, windscreen wipers, radio, lights etc. They were crusing at around 50-56mpg to acheive this.
One of the drivers was also a very experienced economy driver.
In the real world, most people will not get anything like 68mpg.

[Devil]

Interesting, OB. Their 69 mpg is per Imperial gal. Per US gal, it translates to 57 mpg, which ties in closely to my friend's ~55 mpg on the DC>Baltimore run (which is quite flat ground, if you don't know it). The difference between their effort and his is that they were two-up but had modified the car for minimum weight/drag, although they drove through the night with headlights on (presumably), which drops consumption somewhat, while he drives there one-up in daylight with side mirrors operational and he is not seeking optimum fuel consumption as time is money.

However, I don't consider the Prius is a long-distance highway cruiser, nor is it a town runabout, even though it excels for the latter in terms of consumption, arguably the best production car on the road, as he gets 65 mpg in urban Washington DC. It is a general-purpose mid-sized car with all that implies.

I did forget to say that he told me that if you drive it like a conventional car, you will be disappointed; you have to relearn your driving methodology to profit from it the most.