[Newfie]

MD,

why do you think it's too late in the game?

I was thinking of it being used for large scale, long distance ties.

[Pops]

Yeah, thanks Loki. It appears the 3 grid "interconnects" are called "interconnect" because all the utilities within each region are synchronized and electrically connected to each other - but not the other interconnects.

But anyway, I looking around and HVDC problems seem to be additional loss at the transformer points and somewhat less reliability. What other problems are there? The EU has then all over, besides the one on the west coast there is one between Quebec and New England

As long as the line is long enough to make up for the conversion losses at each end and the equipment can be made reliable, it is just about required if there is to be a conversion to renewables isn't it?

The problem with renewables of course is intermittency and grid storage. A hefty HVDC backbone and HVDC interconnection that can actually tie the 3 grids together (and their renewables/storage) would be a big step I'd guess.

The Tres Amigas project has been in the works since '09. The idea is to use HVDC to tie the 3 NERC grid interconnects together in New Mexico so they actually are connected and of course allow NM to sell power to Maine or Maine to sell to LA I guess
.

[KaiserJeep]

Not true, Pops. Things DID work that way, but we have effectively had one grid covering Canada and the USA for slightly over a decade. The most up-to-date non-technical description I can find is this Wikipedia article about NERC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Electric_Reliability_Corporation

The four area interconnects are absolutely in sync with one another - but are loosely coupled in the sense that they cannot share large amounts of power - which is why the operators strive to keep energy consumption and energy generation balanced within each interconnect area. (Except for Texas whose business model is to sell power.)

Another and lesser known reason is that the grid is synchronized with the master Hydrogen MASER in Denver (the most accurate atomic clock we have) and provides a "universal time" reference accurate to a fraction of a second across the entire 4-interconnect area.

Part of the reason confusion abounds about this topic is that some utilities in California, Oregon, Washington state, and possibly other areas offer consumers the option of "selecting their power supplier". Consumers can elect to pay higher rates and "use only Green Energy" is the pitch. But a pitch is what it is, there is no reality to it, the selection changes the mix of wholesale power purchases that are made for the upcoming year, but in actuality everybody is sucking juice off the same grid, using the same exact mix of fossil fuels and renewables that are connected to the one grid at that moment in time. Some just voluntarily pay more - and probably really do feel better because of it.

This may be why Loki disagrees with me, I think. I deal only in realities and ignore marketing hype, but I know other people have different perceptions of reality. My wife still covers the web cam and turns off the microphone, so the computer doesn't watch or listen to her. I believe that she pictures something like little malevolent elves somewhere inside the computer case.

Tres Amigas is all about making the present light duty connections between area interconnects into heavy duty connections capable of transferring large amounts of power. The underlying motive that they will not discuss is that there are seven Western US states - including California - that regularly violate the Clean Air Act because of power plant emissions. In the West we have problems with particulates and ground level ozone, the problems seen in the East are far less common and are mainly sulfur dioxide and nitrogen dioxide from burning hard coals, the root cause of acid rain which is defoliating the Northeastern US and Southeastern Canada.

[MD]

MD,

why do you think it's too late in the game?

I was thinking of it being used for large scale, long distance ties.

I don't think large scale long distance ties will be a priority in the future.

It's just a guess though.

[KaiserJeep]

If we could circle the earth with high capacity power feeds, we could effectively use solar energy 24 hours per day, for example.

If we could use room temperature superconductors, it would be even better.

If we could .....you can go on and on. But there are more people stealing copper wires from the grid than there are enhancing the grid design or the grid capacity. I think MD might be correct.

[sparky]

.
"The problem with renewables of course is intermittency and grid storage "
That's only two of the problems , others are high cost over the life cycle , small units of productions and the need for very substantial and very expensive stand by capacity
from the BBC
"Power plants paid to stay idle, MPs say"
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-31719350
Power engineers don't like "renewables" not because they are ecological vandals but because it make their purpose of supplying power on demand more difficult

Switching to renewables is fine in some cases but it's mostly for individual consumers ,
not so for an integrated industrial society with cities of millions of inhabitants .

The British drama " Blackout " cover some of the consequences of a failure ,
http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio ... -tv-review

It's a TV drama of course ,but is essentially correct , some believe Peak oil would see a meltdown of order
not a chance , for a fall into madness, a week long power cut can do the trick

[Newfie]

If we could circle the earth with high capacity power feeds, we could effectively use solar energy 24 hours per day, for example.

If we could use room temperature superconductors, it would be even better.

If we could .....you can go on and on. But there are more people stealing copper wires from the grid than there are enhancing the grid design or the grid capacity. I think MD might be correct.

Coming out of the Coast Guard in 1976 I took a job with Amtrak. The very first job I was sent on was because someone stole a bunch of old paper and lead telephone cable that was still I service.

I was a Forman running a construction project part of which was replacing man hole covers. Seems they were being stolen and repurposed as mushroom anchors. I was also installing bare 4/0 cable in the duct system. I had cable stolen the night after it was out in. Didn't make it 24 hours.

I've seen them steal large sections of neutral wire, the wire in the tip top of the catenary system, dropping it between the 138kv phase conductors and the 6.6kv signal power lines.

It goes on and on.

One or two years ago they had to delay opening Camden, NJ schools because the copper piping I. The HVAC systems had been stolen over the summer.

I dont find the current theft of copper new or indicative of anything other than our basic greed.

[KaiserJeep]

Newfie, I got out of the Coast Guard in 1975, and got married to a lady from my last duty station (LORAN Station Nantucket).

Here in nearby Manteca (almond capital of the world) they just changed all the realtor lock boxes because somebody was going inside million dollar homes and stealing the copper pipes and wires, ripping them out of the walls. They just enacted a new state law about proving you are authorized to recycle those materials before you get paid. This is happening in the face of a very active real estate market, I am appalled - I'll be paying for security when my house is vacant.

My thinking was that first this will get worse in the teeth of a new economic crisis and second, as the grid powers down, we will probably not have a motive to keep paying for grid maintenance.