NEW! Members Only Forums!

Access more articles, news & discussion by becoming a PeakOil.com Member.
Register Today...
It's FREE!


Login



Peak Oil is You


Donate Bitcoins :-)


Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of hydrocarbon depletion.

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby bratticus » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 16:39:30

Wow long threads are fast now. :)
Meanwhile back to being on-topic:

Country's largest banks suspend foreclosures

Mark Calvey
San Francisco Business Times
February 13, 2009

Wells Fargo, J.P. Morgan Chase, Bank of America and Citigroup Inc. have agreed to halt home foreclosures while the federal government works out a plan to stabilize the nation’s banking industry.

“We will not add to the foreclosure process any new owner-occupied residential loans that are owned and serviced by J.P. Morgan Chase,” said J.P. Morgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon in a Feb. 12 letter to Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), chairman of the House Financial Services Committee.

That moratorium would remain in effect through March 6.

Citigroup said it would put a moratorium on foreclosures of Citigroup-owned loans on principal residences, among others. Citi’s moratorium is scheduled to last until March 12, barring federal action before then.

San Francisco-based Wells Fargo, one of the nation’s largest mortgage lenders, joined the moratorium Friday along with BofA.

“The vast majority of the mortgage loans Wells Fargo services are owned by other investors. We are fully committed to helping our customers find ways to avoid all preventable foreclosures, and we are working with these investors and related contractual commitments to determine how we will support the moratorium request,” said Wells Fargo spokesman Chris Hammond.

... snip ...


So nice to think the weather will be warmer when foreclosures resume again.
User avatar
bratticus
permanently banned
 
Posts: 2376
Joined: Thu 12 Jun 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Bratislava

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby Armageddon » Fri 13 Feb 2009, 17:08:32

They can't keep up with the foreclosures, so they are making it sound like they are doing a good deed by halting them for a while. This is so they can catch up. Also, when they have too many homes on the market, it devalues the current listings.
User avatar
Armageddon
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4181
Joined: Wed 13 Apr 2005, 02:00:00
Location: St.Louis, Mo

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby FloridaGirl » Sat 14 Feb 2009, 01:33:14

Here's some scary numbers from the Federal Reserve:
Non-borrowed Reserves
2008-Dec. 17 153152
2008-Dec. 31 224376
2009-Jan. 14 341641
2009-Jan. 28 287293
2009-Feb. 11 112532

Look at the delta for the last 2 weeks! No wonder they are urgently pushing out the second half of the TARP.

I'm not sure how it got so positive since in October it went down to
-332803. I'm sure the TARP was a big part but that doesn't explain it all. I assume the rest is accounting trickery.

In any case, a drop of $175 billion in just 2 weeks is astonishing!

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h3/Current/
User avatar
FloridaGirl
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed 30 May 2007, 02:00:00

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby eXpat » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 11:15:41

Failure to save East Europe will lead to worldwide meltdown
If mishandled by the world policy establishment, this debacle is big enough to shatter the fragile banking systems of Western Europe and set off round two of our financial Götterdämmerung.

Austria's finance minister Josef Pröll made frantic efforts last week to put together a €150bn rescue for the ex-Soviet bloc. Well he might. His banks have lent €230bn to the region, equal to 70pc of Austria's GDP.

"A failure rate of 10pc would lead to the collapse of the Austrian financial sector," reported Der Standard in Vienna. Unfortunately, that is about to happen.

The European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD) says bad debts will top 10pc and may reach 20pc. The Vienna press said Bank Austria and its Italian owner Unicredit face a "monetary Stalingrad" in the East.

Mr Pröll tried to drum up support for his rescue package from EU finance ministers in Brussels last week. The idea was scotched by Germany's Peer Steinbrück. Not our problem, he said. We'll see about that.

Stephen Jen, currency chief at Morgan Stanley, said Eastern Europe has borrowed $1.7 trillion abroad, much on short-term maturities. It must repay – or roll over – $400bn this year, equal to a third of the region's GDP. Good luck. The credit window has slammed shut.

Not even Russia can easily cover the $500bn dollar debts of its oligarchs while oil remains near $33 a barrel. The budget is based on Urals crude at $95. Russia has bled 36pc of its foreign reserves since August defending the rouble.

"This is the largest run on a currency in history," said Mr Jen.

In Poland, 60pc of mortgages are in Swiss francs. The zloty has just halved against the franc. Hungary, the Balkans, the Baltics, and Ukraine are all suffering variants of this story. As an act of collective folly – by lenders and borrowers – it matches America's sub-prime debacle. There is a crucial difference, however. European banks are on the hook for both. US banks are not.

Almost all East bloc debts are owed to West Europe, especially Austrian, Swedish, Greek, Italian, and Belgian banks. En plus, Europeans account for an astonishing 74pc of the entire $4.9 trillion portfolio of loans to emerging markets.

They are five times more exposed to this latest bust than American or Japanese banks, and they are 50pc more leveraged (IMF data).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/4623525/Failure-to-save-East-Europe-will-lead-to-worldwide-meltdown.html
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw

You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.” Ayn Rand
User avatar
eXpat
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 3803
Joined: Thu 08 Jun 2006, 02:00:00

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 15 Feb 2009, 12:14:33

I just checked some real estate prices around here and they are still insane - even more insane than they were last time I looked. 25 acres for over $750,000. Holy crapping crap! And these tracts are actually selling, apparently! 8O We bought our 20 acres for $65,000 about 12 years ago, and thought it was a bit overpriced then.
User avatar
Ludi
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 18590
Joined: Mon 27 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Darkest Dumfukistan

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Mon 16 Feb 2009, 10:53:48

Ludi wrote:25 acres for over $750,000. Holy crapping crap! And these tracts are actually selling, apparently! 8O


What rubes! You should sell as well, bank it and go buy a 100-ac. doomstead in a more forgiving climate. It's just a matter of time before your neighbors sell out and it all gets platted for McHouses anyways.
"It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."

George Carlin
User avatar
emersonbiggins
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 5152
Joined: Sun 10 Jul 2005, 02:00:00
Location: Dallas

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 16 Feb 2009, 13:15:08

emersonbiggins wrote:What rubes! You should sell as well, bank it and go buy a 100-ac. doomstead in a more forgiving climate. It's just a matter of time before your neighbors sell out and it all gets platted for McHouses anyways.



Nope, we're settled. :) Many of our neighbors seem settled also. We've discussed selling and moving, but my husband isn't interested, and I don't know if I could deal with the stress. We have family in the region also. All this side of the road is deed-restricted to parcels no smaller than 10 acres. Most folks have 20-30 acres and seem to want to keep the parcels large. Folks up the road are developing their 30 acres into a mixed small farm, mostly dairy (Jersey cows and Nubian goats). The folks across the road are ranchers that show no interest in selling (this is their retirement spot). So, as far as we can tell right now (and for the past decade) we're in a pretty good position, as far as this region is concerned. Sure there are more forgiving climates, but they have their drawbacks as well (like cold winters :? ).
User avatar
Ludi
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 18590
Joined: Mon 27 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Darkest Dumfukistan

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Mon 16 Feb 2009, 14:47:22

Good deal - I like the land up in your area, further out towards Lampasas. Rugged, but private and livable. Here's hoping Cedar Park stays in Cedar Park! :)
"It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."

George Carlin
User avatar
emersonbiggins
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 5152
Joined: Sun 10 Jul 2005, 02:00:00
Location: Dallas

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby jugasan » Sat 21 Feb 2009, 00:36:47

WE ARE FACING HOW THE ECONOMY COLAPSES. HOWEVER, HAS ANY WONDERED HOW WE ARE GOING TO EAT AMID THESE CRUEL ECONOMIC CIRCUMSTANCES?
jugasan
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat 21 Feb 2009, 00:22:04

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby Vmax » Mon 23 Feb 2009, 22:11:34

What is the story with PMI (Personal Mortgage Insurance)? I just realized that I have not heard anything about it in all this mess. And, I didn't come up with much doing a Google search. If this collapse is due to people buying more house than they could afford (presumably with less than 20% down), weren't they required to have PMI? I know when I bought my first house, I had to pay for PMI until I had accumulated something like 25% equity.

According to http://www.mortgageguide101.com/private-or-personal-mortgage-insurance.aspx

"Private mortgage insurance, is insurance that actually protects the lender. Many lenders will require private mortgage insurance on a mortgage because the less money that a buyer has invested in a home, the greater the chance that they default on the loan. Private mortgage insurance becomes a financial guaranty that protects lenders against loss in the event you default."

So, what happened to that plan?
User avatar
Vmax
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat 08 Nov 2008, 03:00:00
Location: SE MI

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 23 Feb 2009, 22:23:12

Vmax wrote:What is the story with PMI (Personal Mortgage Insurance)? I just realized that I have not heard anything about it in all this mess. And, I didn't come up with much doing a Google search. If this collapse is due to people buying more house than they could afford (presumably with less than 20% down), weren't they required to have PMI? I know when I bought my first house, I had to pay for PMI until I had accumulated something like 25% equity.

According to http://www.mortgageguide101.com/private-or-personal-mortgage-insurance.aspx

"Private mortgage insurance, is insurance that actually protects the lender. Many lenders will require private mortgage insurance on a mortgage because the less money that a buyer has invested in a home, the greater the chance that they default on the loan. Private mortgage insurance becomes a financial guaranty that protects lenders against loss in the event you default."

So, what happened to that plan?


They are still using it here in VT as of last summer. Perhaps only 20% not 25% equity before you can drop it.
Why we are going to bail out these #@^%$ with there 350K morgages, two suvs and a boat escapes me here, liveing in this old shack with the rusting out old ford in the driveway.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 2892
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 02:00:00

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby IslandCrow » Thu 26 Feb 2009, 03:11:34

Prices still dropping fast in the UK - 1,8% in February


House prices fell by 1.8% in February as confidence in the UK property market failed to pick up......

....the average UK property has fallen in value by 17.6% over the past 12 months, to £147,746.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7911735.stm

Maybe I could soon afford to move back there :P
We should teach our children the 4-Rs: Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Rejoice.
User avatar
IslandCrow
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1273
Joined: Mon 12 Sep 2005, 02:00:00
Location: Finland

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby drgoodword » Thu 26 Feb 2009, 04:20:25

MacLean's magazine has a good article on the crumbling housing market in Canada. (MacLean's is sort of like Canada's homegrown effort at publishing a magazine in the vein of "Time".)

My favourite quote from the article:

"But Kassam has learned that you shouldn’t always believe what you read in the papers and what the economists say on TV."
I had previously taken solace in believing that the other guys understood the intricacies of the global financial system. What we all now realize is that nobody understands and nobody ever understood. - Thomas Barrack, Founder Colony Capital
User avatar
drgoodword
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue 21 Feb 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Toronto

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby Maddog78 » Thu 26 Feb 2009, 13:09:08

That Kassam dude is a big time speculator/flipper and now is getting burned.
He got exposed on a BC Real Estate board I post on.
He has 4 condos for sale on craigslist right now.

They make it sound like he's a normal guy who got burned on one property.

Screw him, you take the bad with the good.

If we wouldn't be having this downturn now he would be in the bar bragging to his friends that he is the next Donald Trump.
User avatar
Maddog78
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 1626
Joined: Mon 14 Jul 2008, 02:00:00

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby Daniel_Plainview » Thu 26 Feb 2009, 13:35:30

Maddog78 wrote:That Kassam dude is a big time speculator/flipper and now is getting burned.
He got exposed on a BC Real Estate board I post on.
He has 4 condos for sale on craigslist right now.

They make it sound like he's a normal guy who got burned on one property.

Screw him, you take the bad with the good.

If we wouldn't be having this downturn now he would be in the bar bragging to his friends that he is the next Donald Trump.


Not only did Kassam lose his $80,000 down payment, but he now faces a judgment of $300,000 for the penthouse he contracted to purchase.

Ouch. That $80K could have bought a lot of preps...
User avatar
Daniel_Plainview
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 3904
Joined: Tue 06 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: 7035 Hollis ... Near the Observatory ... Just down the way, tucked back in the small woods

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby RonMN » Thu 26 Feb 2009, 20:52:56

Quick question guys...I think this is important.

Does anybody know if AIG has any CDS exposure to GM going bankrupt?
If so, do you know the "ball park" dollar amount that's insured? Because if it's so, i'll bet it's a trillion or more!

(sorry for all the ackronyms, but that's the world we live in today)
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes.
User avatar
RonMN
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 2629
Joined: Fri 18 Mar 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Minnesota

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby dorlomin » Tue 03 Mar 2009, 17:05:57

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Eco ... 4Dj05.html

He is still giving the $3.6 trillion dollar figure for the losses and suggests that full nationalisation is about the best option.

He suggests a ten year depression might be in the offing if 'zomie banks' are not fully cleansed. Id guess in another 4-6 months they will be ready for this message in Washington and perhaps they are almost there in London.
"scew your courage to the sticking place" Time to kill the banks.
User avatar
dorlomin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4179
Joined: Sun 05 Aug 2007, 02:00:00

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby drgoodword » Fri 06 Mar 2009, 15:17:14

Hedge Funds Lose A Third Of Their Value In 2008

Hedge Funds To See Further Falls

From The Independent
by Mathieu Robbins

Friday, 6 March 2009

Hedge funds, whose assets under management lost about one-third of their value in 2008, falling to $1.8 trillion (£1.3 trillion), could lose another 20 per cent or more this year as anxious investors continue to redeem their cash, and the funds' limits on such redemptions expire, according to a report yesterday.
I had previously taken solace in believing that the other guys understood the intricacies of the global financial system. What we all now realize is that nobody understands and nobody ever understood. - Thomas Barrack, Founder Colony Capital
User avatar
drgoodword
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 331
Joined: Tue 21 Feb 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Toronto

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby dorlomin » Mon 09 Mar 2009, 06:21:40

link

An opinion piece in the FT discussing where we are, worth a read anyway.

that the era of liberalisation was also a time of exceptionally frequent financial crises, surpassed, since 1900, only by the 1930s. It was also an era of massive asset price bubbles.

The proposition that sophisticated modern finance was able to transfer risk to those best able to manage it has failed. The paradigm is, instead, that risk has been transferred to those least able to understand it.


In a recent paper Andrew Haldane, the Bank of England’s executive director for financial stability, shows how little banks understood of the risks they were supposed to manage. He ascribes these failures to “disaster myopia” (the tendency to underestimate risks), a lack of awareness of “network externalities” (spill­overs from one institution to the others) and “misaligned incentives” (the upside to employees and the downside to shareholders and taxpayers).


Less clear is whether policymakers will contemplate structural remedies: a separation of utility commercial banking from investment banking; or the forced reduction in the size and complexity of institutions deemed too big or interconnected to fail. One could also imagine a return of much banking activity to the home market, as governments increasingly call the tune. If so, this would be “de-globalisation”.
User avatar
dorlomin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4179
Joined: Sun 05 Aug 2007, 02:00:00

Re: Housing and Economic Collapse - In Progress #4

Unread postby dorlomin » Mon 16 Mar 2009, 18:09:47

These are the numbers that illustrate the trend of the shift in debt from comercial and banks to the state.
The "Flow of Funds" illuminates why the collapse of the greatest credit bubble in history has not yet translated into one of the greater economic collapses. Despite financial panic and the freezing up of credit markets, total non-financial credit expanded at a 6.3% annualized rate during the fourth quarter. While down from the third-quarter's 8.1% pace, I would argue that 6% plus credit expansion was about the minimum required to forestall systemic implosion. Importantly, this feat was achieved by the federal government expanding borrowings at a 37% annualized rate.


I am guessing that the drop in 1.6% of household debt would be a combination of people paying down mortgages that were not being replaced by new issued mortgages and debt being written off through bankruptcy.
Sure enough, household mortgage debt contracted at a 1.6% rate during the quarter, with household (non-mortgage) credit sinking at a 3.2% pace. Corporate debt growth, having expanded at a double-digit rate during the first half of 2007, slowed markedly to 1.2%. Yet, despite collapsing markets for private-sector credit, total (economy-wide) compensation for the 4th quarter was actually up 1.9% y-o-y to a record (annualized) $8.096 trillion. For the year, national income was up 1.5% to a record $12.453 trillion, with total compensation up 3.1% to $8.058 trillion.


"Asset backed securities" include the infamous CDO's.
Remarkably, domestic financial sector debt growth accelerated from Q3's 6.8% pace to a 7.2% rate of expansion. On a seasonally-adjusted and annualized rate (SAAR) basis, total financial sector borrowings jumped to $1.222 trillion during the quarter. This was in the face of the asset-backed securities (ABS) market contracting SAAR $616 billion. This critical contraction in private sector credit was, however, largely offset by combined growth in government-sponsored entities' (GSE) debt and mortgage-backed securities (MBS) growth of SAAR $569 billion. Bank commercial loans expanded SAAR $858 billion, while open market paper increased SAAR $341 billion.


Combined federal and quasi-federal securities outstanding ballooned an incredible $1.955 trillion in just one year. For comparison, Treasury and the agencies combined to increase debt securities $1.146 trillion during 2007, $514 billion in 2006 and $390 billion in 2005. This ramp up of government credit growth is outdoing even the historic surge in mortgage credit during the mortgage finance bubble years.



Bugger me and the stimulus package is still to be accounted for.
.
At the Federal Reserve, total assets expanded an unmatched $729 billion during the quarter to $2.270 trillion, with one-year growth of 139%. Washington should feel quite fortunate that the markets continue to accommodate such alarming debt expansion at such meager little interest rates. There is no mystery why the Chinese and our other creditors are increasingly disturbed by our government's borrowing habits.


I am not 100% sure what total household assets are.... I am guessing the total value of your house and contents, reflecting the falling house market????
During the fourth quarter, total household assets dropped a record $5.419 trillion, or 31% annualized, to $65.719 trillion. Wow! Financial asset values sank a record $4.537 trillion (to $40.814 trillion), and real estate dropped a record $871 billion (to $20.512 trillion). Little wonder auto purchases and retail spending went into a tailspin, as household net worth shrank a record $5.110 trillion during the quarter (to $51.477 trillion).



I am not a flat out panicked as I was this time last year, this guy seems to be in a similar place.
I suppose I'll for now reside in the camp that believes the system is perhaps not as acutely unstable today as many fear. The unfolding government finance bubble is - until it isn't - a major stabilizing force. Government finance by its nature will not exert sufficient stimulus to rejuvenate deflating asset markets, but it is nonetheless playing a major role in underpinning wages and incomes.


Up shit creek but almost still clinging on to a paddle.......



And this hints at the possible.......
But such extraordinary stabilization does not come without a heavy price. I am firmly in the camp that believes that Washington is now trapped in a massive inflation of government obligations - the latest round of historic credit inflation captured clearly throughout the Q4 2008 "Flow of Funds" data. The worst-case scenario unfolds when our creditors and the marketplace turn against these government obligations.




[COLOR="Red"]KABOOM![/COLOR] scenario......

[url="http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/KC17Dj01.html"]Link[/url]
User avatar
dorlomin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4179
Joined: Sun 05 Aug 2007, 02:00:00

Next

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests