[Shelter] Heat - Wood (was Wood Stoves)

[vtsnowedin]

I'm curious, where are you guys finding this wood? Do you have huge backyards, can you get a lot more out of a single tree than I'm imagining, or are you planning on having access to public land after TSHTF?

I tell the wife as long as she can look out at our side hill and see one tree we are not out of wood. I'm on the family farm I grew up on and have been cutting 20+ cords a year here for over thirty years and I am losing ground.

[vtsnowedin]

I'd put in an air intake. I wouldn't listen to that guy. I did one for my pellet stove when i had it installed and it worked great. When i get my woodstove in i'll do another one. There simple to do and the hole isn't that big... You might want to ask over on Hearth forums.

http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.ph ... ategory/1/

Think about it. If you have an 8" flue freely flowing hot expanded air out of the house there has to be at least a 6" pipes worth of cold outside air coming into the house to replace it. As the draw of the chimney places the interior of the house under a slight vacuum it will suck this air in from cracks around windows and doors and it will drop to the floor and move into the direction of the stove inlet creating a nice cold draft on your toes. Even worse if the cracks are in one room and the stove in another the air going into the stove and up the chimney will be air you have already heated to room temperature perhaps with your oil furnace. A cold air supply line that brings cold outside air right up to the hearth so that people can't get between the cold air and its destination will make a house much more comfortable and save wood.

[vtsnowedin]

Well, I installed my chimney last weekend and according to my wife it consumes wood even faster than the old inefficient insert.

I guess this is either because the chimney is pulling the air up too fast or that the air entry regulator is buggered.

Any ideas?

Looking at the picture you posted I do not see any draft controls or a damper handle. Are there any? If the fire box of the insert is air tight all you would need is an air inlet control to control the flow of oxygen to the fire. If you shut off air flow completly the fire would go out which would be a bad thing but you should be able to throttle it to what ever speed you want. Of course the wife may just be heating the house to sauna temps if thats the way she likes it and in that case your not going to get there without burning some fuel.

[frankthetank]

Yup. There was a long discussion on it over on that other site maybe last year. The air has to come from somewhere for combustion.

Also REMEMBER TO HAVE A CO DETECTOR. Small price to pay for waking up dead. I swear every year around here someone/some family dies because of CO poisoning.

[vtsnowedin]

Yup. There was a long discussion on it over on that other site maybe last year. The air has to come from somewhere for combustion.

Also REMEMBER TO HAVE A CO DETECTOR. Small price to pay for not waking up dead. I swear every year around here someone/some family dies because of CO poisoning.

FTFY

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

Thanks for the input. that is exactly what is happeneing. My house has insulation, but is not air tight by any stretch of the imagination.

I am sure it has a crap load of drafts cause I swear its getting colder. I put plastic up on the windows in the livingroom tonight cause you sit beside the fire and feel it get colder in the room, while the stove really doesn't feel as though its doing ANY good and I am supposedly burning birch and larch.

I will see about getting the draft put in quickly. Till then I will do as skymoore does and keep the door open till the fire is well lit.

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

I got a combination smoke detector and CO detector... but I have a problem. I don't know where to put it. CO is apparently one of the heaviest gasses there is so you should put it near the floor for early detection.

but in case of fire you should have your detector near the roof cause that is where smoke goes.... what the hell should I do?

Funny story though. Since I haven't actually installed the damned thing, cause I cant decide where to put it, the kids started burning the bacon the other morning and set it off, so they took it and put it around the corner on the dryer in the bathroom.

then later that night, the CO detector GOES OFF? the kids did it right, they started heading for the door. but mom? Nah, she aint too bright, she follows the noise (since it isn't coming from where it should) and finds the cat sitting right beside it farting!

[vtsnowedin]

I got a combination smoke detector and CO detector... but I have a problem. I don't know where to put it. CO is apparently one of the heaviest gasses there is so you should put it near the floor for early detection.

but in case of fire you should have your detector near the roof cause that is where smoke goes.... what the hell should I do?

Funny story though. Since I haven't actually installed the damned thing, cause I cant decide where to put it, the kids started burning the bacon the other morning and set it off, so they took it and put it around the corner on the dryer in the bathroom.

then later that night, the CO detector GOES OFF? the kids did it right, they started heading for the door. but mom? Nah, she aint too bright, she follows the noise (since it isn't coming from where it should) and finds the cat sitting right beside it farting!

wives kids and pets always coming up with new ways to make you laugh.
Other than the instructions on the box I would place that CO detector in the hall between the bedroom doors about two feet down from the ceiling. That way it won't go off every time the kids cook but will before the smoke gets down to the level of the beds. The CO by itself is heavy but it will be hot and mixed with the rest of the smoke ,unless your feeding the cat baked beans you should be ok. LOL

Two other things,
1. You don't have to fill a wood stove full at each firing. you can put in just a few sticks and use a half or third of the firebox and maintain what ever sized fire you require. I have a Sam Daniels wood furnace in the basement. It will take 36" wood and a full contractors wheelbarrow full at a fireing if needed. I cut wood for it 18" to 22" and just load in three or four at a time during the day and about half full when I shut it down for the night.
2. You might get good use out of those door corner fans to move hot air from the stove down the hall to the bed rooms. Or a floor fan set to blow the cold return air back to the stove. People will stubbornly try to blow the hot air down the hall with a floor fan not realizing they are trying to reverse the natural flow.

[gnm]

Heres a little tip for all you wood stove users. I buy a bag of pellets (like for pellet stoves) and re-use old paper towel and TP cardboard centers by pinching off the end and filling it with pellets. Makes great kindling. I don't even get through a bag each winter - You can also just dump a cup or two in between the first two logs as kindling - of course a blow torch make a handy fire starter. Yes - I can even start a fire with flint and tinder but I don't need to be so precise when wood heat is my primary. The click start high end plumbers torches sure make it easy.

-G

[Revi]

I use all kinds of things as kindling. We just ate a bowl of peanuts, so I scooped the shells into a paper bag and it will make a great fire starter. I always like to have two logs with a space in between that I stuff with kindling and paper. I crack the window and start the fire. It takes a few minutes to get going and I close the window.

I just got another half a cord of wood just in case it's a longer and colder winter than normal. We can use it next winter if it's not used this year.

[Olaf]

Here's what some people did with a steel and iron wood stove to store heat. http://www.geopathfinder.com/9597.html

Been doing some catching up in this thread. This link is very useful. thanks.

Olafr

[gnm]

Regarding the CO detectors - CO is similar in weight to air but is indeed slightly heavier. Being that it is generally resulting from combustion it will usually concentrate in high areas near the appliance (due to convection) before slowly mixing down and pooling in lower areas as it cools. I would recommend a detector be placed above head level near whatever appliance you wish to protect. The same would be true of combo (smoke and CO detectors). Additional CO detectors could be placed low down in the same room to detect pooling CO but that would probably be of little benefit.

There is also a type of detector which is a combo flammable gas and CO detector. Those should be placed around chest height near the appliance since propane will pool up from below. The sensitivity of all these detectors is usually good enough to detect any dangerous mix of gases well ahead of time. If a CO detector goes off GET OUT FIRST. Then proceed to open all doors from the outside.

-G

[gnm]

I use all kinds of things as kindling. We just ate a bowl of peanuts, so I scooped the shells into a paper bag and it will make a great fire starter. I always like to have two logs with a space in between that I stuff with kindling and paper. I crack the window and start the fire. It takes a few minutes to get going and I close the window.

I just got another half a cord of wood just in case it's a longer and colder winter than normal. We can use it next winter if it's not used this year.

Hehe yes nut shells are another favorite of mine for kindling.... I also generally use the two log method. I like to put a split one or two spanning the top of the kindling as well.

-G

[vtsnowedin]

Regarding the CO detectors -
There is also a type of detector which is a combo flammable gas and CO detector. Those should be placed around chest height near the appliance since propane will pool up from below. The sensitivity of all these detectors is usually good enough to detect any dangerous mix of gases well ahead of time. If a CO detector goes off GET OUT FIRST. Then proceed to open all doors from the outside.

-G

Might want to double check that. At Vol. fireman school they taught us that leaking propane was denser than air and followed the ground downhill.

[gnm]

Regarding the CO detectors -
There is also a type of detector which is a combo flammable gas and CO detector. Those should be placed around chest height near the appliance since propane will pool up from below. The sensitivity of all these detectors is usually good enough to detect any dangerous mix of gases well ahead of time. If a CO detector goes off GET OUT FIRST. Then proceed to open all doors from the outside.

-G

Might want to double check that. At Vol. fireman school they taught us that leaking propane was denser than air and followed the ground downhill.

You are correct - If it has somewhere to go it will run out downhill. What I was referring to was in the case of a closed in leak (such as a furnace closet) the propane would fill from the bottom because it is heavier than air. And the CO would tend to mix down from above (being previously combusted and hotter) - thus the placement...

[canuckinczech]

A couple of thoughts.

For cheap, invisible mass, go local lumberyards and ask about broken sheets of drywall, many times they are simply chucked in the dumpster and should be free or nearly so. Screw as many layers as you can on the walls near your stove and then top with a layer of good 3/8 in. drywall (or simply tape and mud the broken pieces if you are good) and finish as you like.

I met CA's energy requirements for thermal mass on one house we built simply by using 5/8 instead of 1/2in drywall and was able to frame on 24in centers to boot - it cost less to build, was invisible and quieter too.

Here is Simpsons Duravent install guide; it will give you a start for that product but use whatever comes with your pipe. Be especially careful regarding clearances, fire stops, insulation shields and roof penetration flashings and final height.

IIRC, the UBC requires a 3ft final height above the penetration AND two ft above ANY part of the building within 10ft horizontally - I know from experience this can get you in trouble if you aren't careful.

That is not only a good thing safety wise but also helps promote a good draw.

Also stoves that are UL listed will have a label showing minimum clearances and some also have optional heat shields to reduce the minimum clearance. Be very careful to observe those distances as your fire insurance might well be voided through an improper installation or foregoing a building permit.

When in doubt in this case I would certainly urge having a pro do the install

Just my 2 pennies worth…

Oh boy...I was really excited to find this thread! Although a bit dismayed to find so little discussion on heat exchangers .

Am in total agreement with Pops...its all about thermal mass. I have a 300year old bread oven , and have been slowly adding components to improve its efficiency. The chimneys stack is 50x50cm inside ,solid brick and is centrally located (for those of you building new houses...sacrify the space and go for a exposed central stack!). I put in 3 big birch logs a day and the stack accumulates so much heat it radiates and continually heats the whole house all through the next day!


I experimented routing convection tubes to individual rooms, however the measureable heated air transfer, turned out not to be worth the effort.

The current project is installing a coil/drum hot water heat exchanger...I had an old electric boiler w/ coil sitting around, so am just in the process of plumbing it in. The problem I am having is that I can only get enough hight on the boiler for the top of the coil/drum in the fireplace to be level with the top of the coil inside the boiler..."Is that enough to allow for thermal siphoning?" or does the boiler coil have to be significantly above the top of the coil inside the fireplace? I am not to keen on adding an electric pump to the circuit

I have been told that copper coil in the fireplace can't make direct contact with the open flame. Several people adviced me to buy a "drum(?)" insert with 2 ports on it which just sits in the rear of the oven/fireplace...since I have an allergy against buying things, I'd rather just build a thin high fired brick wall between the coil and the fire inside the oven...not sure which would be more efficient for circulation?

Fireplaceguy- Again, thankyou so much for sharing your wealth of knowledge!

[canuckinczech]

More pix..
convection pipes assembly...



Installing boiler under stairway....

[canuckinczech]

Tulikivi is one such brand JB: http://www.olenych.com/tulworks.htm

The principle is the same: heat up the mass to release the heat later.

One should be careful not to build so much mass into the fireplace that it sucks all the heat from the flue gases - cold smoke doesn't rise.

I like an insulated stainless chimney because it doesn't lose heat. I can keep a good draft going while radiating heat to the interior of the house.

Does adding hight to your chimney counteract that problem?

[vtsnowedin]

[The current project is installing a coil/drum hot water heat exchanger...I had an old electric boiler w/ coil sitting around, so am just in the process of plumbing it in. The problem I am having is that I can only get enough hight on the boiler for the top of the coil/drum in the fireplace to be level with the top of the coil inside the boiler..."Is that enough to allow for thermal siphoning?" or does the boiler coil have to be significantly above the top of the coil inside the fireplace? I am not to keen on adding an electric pump to the circuit

I have been told that copper coil in the fireplace can't make direct contact with the open flame. Several people adviced me to buy a "drum(?)" insert with 2 ports on it which just sits in the rear of the oven/fireplace...since I have an allergy against buying things, I'd rather just build a thin high fired brick wall between the coil and the fire inside the oven...not sure which would be more efficient for circulation?

Fireplaceguy- Again, thankyou so much for sharing your wealth of knowledge!

I have used a couple of thermosiphon systems over the years. Having a second coil in the storage tank is unnecessary unless the tank is far from the furnace and at an less then ideal height. Two coils will probably always require a circulation pump. The ideal placement is next to the furnace with the base of the tank setting on a stand so that it is near the level of the fire box and the top of the tank as high above the firebox as space allows. A tall skinny tank will work better then a fat one. The cold water to the firebox coil can come from any fitting near the bottom of the tank, the lower the better as water below the fitting will not circulate. Here is the important part. The pipe bringing the hot water back to the tank needs to enter the tank through the side of the tank a few inches below the top. If you try to enter through a top fitting the hot water gets trapped at the elbo and cannot flow down into the cooler water in the tank. Coming in the side it can quickly rise to the top and displace cooler water which settles down to the bottom and out the cold feed. I use black iron pipe inside the fire box and switch to copper covered with insulation outside the furnace. Make sure that any horizontal runs inside the furnace are level and well supported so that hot water doesn't ever have to move down hill. Don't forget to have a working pressure relief valve in the system somewhere that can't be isolated by turning the wrong valve. I have had to move them away from the tank as the stove would work too well and keep tripping it on temperature. Its all right to set it further away as long as there is no valve between it and the tank proper. (Local code will rule of course)

[WisJim]

I used a new electric water heater for our thermosiphon tank next to our wood furnace. The furnace has a loop of 1" (nominal size) iron pipe along one side of the firebox, and I connected it with 1" galvanized water pipe to the water heater tank. I removed the top electric element and ran the hot water pipe from the furnace loop to that opening, and connected the cool water connection to a tee that I installed at the drain at the very bottom of the tank. The way it all sits, it works out so the water heater cold connection is below the loop in the furnace, and the hot connection to the tank is above the furnace loop. It has worked well for a couple of years now, but I am thinking of adding a ciculation pump between this storage tank that heats through thermosiphoning water from the wood furnace, and the existing propane water heater that the storage tank feeds into. A circulation pump that ran only when the storage tank was hotter than the propane heated tank would reduce our use of propane even more, I think. And then I need to figure out a place to mount some of my solar water heating panels close enough to the house to be practical, and far enough away to be out of the shade around the house.