[Timo]

In the US we have such a long way to fall to come anywhere near to parity with the rest of the world. Such a challenge for a culture taught to feel entitled to have only the best.

Tru dat. I remember very clearly thinking that same thought back when NAFTA was approved. Economic opportunity is something to be championed. However, the glut of free trade across the planet has resulted in some economic improvements, but those gains have been more than offset by downward conditions faced by the Western world, and the US in particular. We're on pace to gain economic equality, sure enough, but at the lowest level. Us Merkans aren't so happy with how that's working out.

So ultimately all nations achieve parity. Within each country the same proportion of super-wealthy elites, middle management, and masses of either laborers or unemployed. What happens then? Do we get revolution?

Throughout the course of human history, yes. History does tend to repeat itself. It's only a question of when.

[ennui2]

I find the media-bias thing is itself a hardened narrative. It's an elixir some people drink in order to scapegoat. And that goes for the right blaming liberal bias as much as the left blaming Fox news and Rush.

Politics is a curious mix of irrational popularity contest, quasi-religious beliefs, and veiled self-interest. What people tend not to do is vote based on sound policy decisions aimed at the greater good.

It is a sport to see if you can cause people to dislike your chosen whipping-boy. Someone like Plantagenet has elevated that to a lifestyle. It's kind of a sport analogous to sadism. If we can just demonize this person, this thing, this -ism, then I will magically feel better.

I could very easily put the Koch brothers on trial for crimes against humanity. Let's say tens of thousands of people bobble-headed in agreement. Yep. The Koch brothers suck. They're evil. Well, um, now what? They own tons of companies. We inadvertently buy their products just by going about our everyday lives. Are not the Koch brothers, Rex Tillerman, Fox, empowered by us? Is it really fair to draw a line around us and say "I'm good. They are bad."

It's just a gross oversimplification.

I'm really beyond the blame game. It's useless.

[Ibon]

Well, um, now what? They own tons of companies. We inadvertently buy their products just by going about our everyday lives. Are not the Koch brothers, Rex Tillerman, Fox, empowered by us? Is it really fair to draw a line around us and say "I'm good. They are bad."

It's just a gross oversimplification.

I'm really beyond the blame game. It's useless.

Well said. It is easy to demonize or play victim to a system of which we are an integral part.

That is on the otherhand what makes these times potentially so transformative. It is a check mate of sorts of existing paradigms, memes, status quo beliefs, etc.

In the end the consequences of overshoot act as a common denominator helping to deconstruct many of our existing cherished beliefs. We may react attempting to demonize or victimize but in end resistence is futile and capituation is the end game.

The Overshoot Predator is similar to The Star Trek Borg.........

My free will has already been compromised. The Overshoot Predator has already succeeded with his indoctrinization. I am now his agent. Careful reading my words that you do not become infected. There is no need to be covert here since resistence is futile.

[ennui2]

Ibon, your Overshoot Predator itself is a narrative. It's a narrative to which you seem extremely attached, just as much a Planty is in invoking his Obama demon.

Human beings live on catch-phrases like this. It's how our brains are wired. We hold onto these narratives until something disrupts them, and then we reach for a new one. When I went down the whole animation pathway, the upside of that was to really figure out how we are the storytelling animal.

Pstarr's narrative is that peak-oil causes everything bad that happens in the news. Every riot. Every negative economic indicator.

Graeme's narrative is to cling to ecotopia and to post every hopeful piece of renewable-energy news.

Montequest's mantra was to quote Catton endlessly and to make people upset by how dispassionately he talked about die-off and zoonotic diseases (the signature image of the gorilla on the plate).

I don't know how many of the old timers still post here, but I could keep on going down the list of what everyone's schtick was. People's whose agenda was to blame this group or that group. Promote communism (Eastbay) or bash Israel at the drop of a hat to the point of glorifying suicide bombers (like that had any connection to PeakOil).

Everyone's closely-held conviction, their truth, like religion, it can't all be true simultaneously.

The doomer scene is largely a political/religious battle:

-My predictive powers are better than yours!
-My moral compass is more righteous than yours!
-My lifestyle choice is better than yours (i.e. I've got better preps, neener neener)

Lather, rinse, and repeat.

At the end of the day, you have to step away from the keyboard and go through your daily routine. Hold down a job. Pay your bills. And try to carve out a little joy and (hopefully) some love in this short thread we call life. If the world in which we're living just happens to go through a die-off around us, well, deal with it!

That's what I call doomer acceptance circa 2014.

[Ibon]

I think you pretty much summed it up except for the point that this is a religious or political battle. I think there is a fare amount of acceptance here of the many narratives and voices. My particular narrative is a contribution to the chorus and I do not intend my voice to drown out any one elses. I rather enjoy the many points of view.

[Timo]

I rather enjoy the many points of view.

SHUT UP!!!

[Plantagenet]

I'm really beyond the blame game. It's useless.

Well said. It is easy to demonize ... a system of which we are an integral part.

Its also easy to step away and imagine one is above the fray.

Quo Vadis. I wash my hands of it all.


But even people who wash their hands of the system have to deal with the system

[Timo]

I'm really beyond the blame game. It's useless.

Well said. It is easy to demonize ... a system of which we are an integral part.

Its also easy to step away and imagine one is above the fray.

That brings up an interesting question if anyone is truely capable of becoming so disassociated with our own roles in society to evaluate what they really are. We can be objective about our activities and our dependences and contributions to the greater whole, but there are inherent limits to what we are able to completely see. How could such a completely objective, unbiased, and neutral evaluation be accomplished? Very few of us acknowledge, or even recognize our own faults or obsessive behaviors. My behaviors are completely normal and natural, in my mind. But to the people i live and work with, they have a completely different observation. I'm not talking about measuring my carbon footprint. I'm talking about objectively evaluating my dependence and narrative role within the whole.

I know that all sounds like waxxing philosophical giberish, but in the context of this discussion, it is a conundrum.

[Pops]

That brings up an interesting question if anyone is truely capable of becoming so disassociated with our own roles in society to evaluate what they really are.

Scientists argue all the time over whose objective facts are the true representation of reality and which theory they actually support. We lesser humans walking along in our unexamined daydream have no hope of being objective.

In the end, reality is in the eye of the beholder.

[KaiserJeep]

Behold the truth, Pops. Based on your recent charts, World Peak Oil is here.

There are 7+ billion humans to react, and a world full of weapons, everything from kitchen knives to thermonuclear warheads.

I sincerely hope we can behave calmly, wisely, humanely, and with dignity going forward into the Long Emergency, but I have doubts - since nothing remotely similar has ever actually happened before.

[Pops]

I think decline in the headline number is pretty close now KJ, there is still the possibility of 2-3mbd of "politically stranded" crude coming back online rapidly, but the longer it stays shut down the longer it will take to start back up I'd guess, especially where there are little wars going on. And who knows what might happen if the base price ratchets up, say, 50% - maybe there's another Frack-ish "miracle" in the wings @$150/bbl that continues BAU for some subset of the driving public who can then continue pumping the narrative. The really miraculous thing about fracking is that by it's very nature it is a flash in the pan, right now we're still blinded by the light, LOL.

But truth is subjective, isn't that the point here? A good portion of the population will perceive the reality and change horses when confronted by events. Younger people will not see depletion as the death of the world as they know it because depletion will be the only world they know. Our armageddon will be business as usual to them.

We older folks, as is our prerogative, will stubbornly cling to our preconceived notions, beliefs and expectations even in the face of mounting pressure and changing circumstance. We'll be less successful and probably cause some unnecessary hardship.

I guess you could say there'll be a hardening of narratives with increasing external consequences. LOL

[Timo]

We older folks, as is our prerogative, will stubbornly cling to our preconceived notions, beliefs and expectations even in the face of mounting pressure and changing circumstance. We'll be less successful and probably cause some unnecessary hardship.

I guess you could say there'll be a hardening of narratives with increasing external consequences. LOL

That's a VERY GOOD description of what we're seeing now actross the globe, and even in our own Congress. It's a changing of the guard from old to new. Unfortunately, the new guard, being newbies, are acting in very childish ways because they do not have the breadth of world experiences that the older generations have. I do believe that wisdom in governance is gained through practical experience. Governance requires patience, and that's something certain factions gaining control of our country simply do not have. There's nothing virtuous about them, either. Same thing going on in NAME. Old US supported dictators are being overthrown by younger generations who have no experience in running a country. That lack of experience can, and has turned very deadly for countless people. I hope that same outcome never descends upon us here in the US. The narratives being voiced aren't very encouraging.

[Ibon]

I can afford to see the truth. Can you? Do you have the luxury to understand the precariousness of your situation

If I was the next presidents speach writer this would be the opening line at his or hers first State of the Union address.

[Tanada]

I can afford to see the truth. Can you? Do you have the luxury to understand the precariousness of your situation

If I was the next presidents speach writer this would be the opening line at his or hers first State of the Union address.

Do you still feel this way? Truth is a subjective matter, only facts are objective. The interpretation of facts in the search for truth is purely an artifact of the mind sorting the facts into a framework the personality finds acceptable inside their world view.

[Satori]

Intelligence is the ability to adapt to change. Stephen Hawking


just how intelligent is the human race as a whole?

[sjn]

Not all "truths" are equal, though. Some "world views" are closer to accepting or internalising facts than others. Of course, whilst facts may be objective, they are rarely, if ever certain. To me, the closest thing to truth is in accepting what is likely, rejecting what it not, while leaving room for doubt.

[onlooker]

Certainly, a distinction should be made with regard to hard scientific facts or truths and more subjective topics related to human affairs. While a subjective bias can always be present , the discipline of science requires as much objectivity as possible and a thorough investigation of pertinent facts. So in regard to social constructs they inevitably deal with human emotions and imperfections that are difficult to impossible to categorize as a hard objective truth given the haphazard nature of human agency and the inevitable tainting with a subjective biased interpretation of matters that naturally invoke emotional responses and stimulation

[ROCKMAN]

Looker - Well said. But some folks are still think facts, even if accepted by the vast majority, don't necessarily change the dynamic. Hypothetical: if tomorrow indisputable proof of climate change were available would China change its energy consumptions? Would US citizens demand a reduction of motor fuel via ratio cards? Would they also demand a ban on importing Canadian oil sands production?

And some might think such changes would happen. Does anyone here fall into that camp?