Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Hardening narratives with increased external consequences

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby sjn » Thu 13 Mar 2014, 10:05:27

The point is democracy only works (in the interest of the people) when certain preconditions are met.

Some points I've personally noticed lacking from my own experiences of voting in the UK:

* the electorate is well informed, capable of critical thought (here the predominant narrative and manufactured consent comes into play)

* candidates represent the views of the voters (Party politics results in candidates representing the narratives of the parties, in a system with inherent structural bias towards the main political parties this results conformity, and over time they converge around the predominant narrative.)

* manifesto promises are kept (Are they ever?)

* media is relatively unbiased, or at least diverse, not owned and controlled billionaire oligarchs (Murdoch et al), or an offical state broadcaster that protects/repesents official state interests (BBC - since the Hutton Inquiry)

* the outcome electoral system should reflect the views of the people. (Is a government formed representing the votes of 10,703,654 out of 49,116,522 potential voters democratic?)

To be clear; I'm not opposed to Democracy, I just don't think many (if any) countries actually are really democratic.
User avatar
sjn
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 1332
Joined: Wed 09 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: UK

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby sjn » Thu 13 Mar 2014, 10:14:56

Are the "Arab Spring" states better examples of functional democracy than the UK?
User avatar
sjn
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 1332
Joined: Wed 09 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: UK

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Pops » Thu 13 Mar 2014, 10:51:31

sjn wrote:Are the "Arab Spring" states better examples of functional democracy than the UK?

Yes, they are examples of direct democracy in action.

I don't have experience of the UK but I think they [Arab revolutionaries] have the "advantage" of a direct understanding of un-democracy in action that we in the US at least have long since relegated to platitudes and partisan rhetoric.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Timo » Thu 13 Mar 2014, 11:50:29

Pops, any rise in democracies correlating with the rise in communications technologies doesn't necessarily mean that those democracies are peaceful. For example, how was the Egyptian Spring coordinated? Twitter and other forms of social media. That was outside the venues of traditional print and TV and radio. What's the first thing that any new government seeks to control? Media. Controlling the message is key to maintaining control of the people. New communications technologies makes that goal much more difficult to attain, which is why political stability anywhere is becoming much more precarious. Us Americans are still glued into our TVs, and too gullible to believe those heads who talk at us and tell us what to believe. The rest of the world looks to us with envy, because of our lifestyle.

Stupidity in the extreme, with very dire consequences.
Timo
 

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Pops » Thu 13 Mar 2014, 12:14:00

Timo wrote:For example, how was the Egyptian Spring coordinated? Twitter and other forms of social media.

That's the point I'm trying to make, not succeeding very well obviously. :lol:

Prior to the web it was satellite TV that was outside the control of the controllers. Before that commercial radio that didn't respect borders, maybe shortwave?

And before that: pamphleteers!
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 13 Mar 2014, 13:42:23

Have we ever considered that as we all become more addicted to digital means of communication this in itself creates a bias toward wanting to preserve the status quo so as not to lose this venue? To what extent is the world wide web dependent on globalization, global commerce and all of us wanting to keep the current paradigm vibrant and healthy. What would be the incentive for governments to keep a free internet intact if the commericial and economic benefits became marginal. Can't everyone find that secret place in themselves that wants the status quo and consumption to preserve enough of globalization so that we can all nestle every day in our chairs and couches enjoying this internet fix.

I can go to Korea, Thailand, Philippines, Panama, US and europe and although the content may vary I see this vast majority of humanity across all cultures and socio economic classes all plugging into the their digital devices each with their own tailored set of favorite sites that often only serve to mirror but not challenge their own points of view. This is what I mean by homogenization. This is insidious. But I couldn't do the project here in Panama without it. We are off the grid but have internet and no cell phone service. We even watch Netflix movies at night after walking the trails in an immense national park looking at howler monkeys. So how cool is that? It's awesome actually. But this truth does not blind me to the greater truth of what the former part of this post is saying.

Digitial communication globally reinforces the status quo more than challenging it. That is my premise.
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9568
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Pops » Thu 13 Mar 2014, 14:59:02

No doubt, I like many aspects of modern life and of course hope we can keep only the parts I like and get rid of the rest. LOL

Wiki is amazing and blathering on here is quite enjoyable, in fact my entire way of life is also enabled by this tech. A good portion of the disconnect between energy intensity and global GDP if not rising worker "productivity" (read: obsolescence) is due to this tech. But remember, the web just celebrated it's 25th birthday this week.

This isn't BAU, this is the destructive technology of our and perhaps many generations, it's the killer app that can in many ways replace transport and already has in lots of areas.

I really don't think you can argue that we are more insular now than, say, 1950 regardless of how many "channels" are now narrowcast to whatever our particular taste.

The homogenization via communication you are talking about is actually (stick with me here, LOL) the new Tower of Babel. Really. The Christian god in the fable is pissed because with all the humans speaking one language after the Flood they were starting to do big things like build a stairway to heaven (the Tower). He didn't like the fact that he wasn't the center of attention. So like any despot he decided to crack down on communication and made everyone speak different languages and sent them to Siberia ( and everywhere else) to put the kibosh on any human inventiveness. It worked like a charm and humans were dirt poor for eons afterward.

So you see it as homogenization and I see it more as hybridization; mixing genes to increase vigor, develop new and better traits and in the end eliminate unnecessary competition.

How about that for a leap? LOL

.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Timo » Thu 13 Mar 2014, 15:16:09

Net neutrality is about to become a thing of the past. Those who can pay for faster service will do so in order to control a larger segment of the messages being relayed over the intertubes. Those smaller players who can't afford such luxuries, aka equal treatment over the web, will be held back, thus reducing their abilities to speak at the same levels as those with greater control. Yes, I DO want the status quo of net neutrality to continue, but Netflix just broke that paradigm by paying Comcast for faster streaming service, meaning that everybody else is at a competitive disadvantage unless they also pay up for equal service. Money buys votes, and now money also buys free speech. Of course we all know money buys control of everyone else's ability to do much of anything. That's why there have been revolutions throughout civilized history. The narratives are hardening with increased external consequences.
Timo
 

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Pops » Thu 13 Mar 2014, 17:19:16

Timo wrote:Net neutrality is about to become a thing of the past. Those who can pay for faster service will do so in order to control a larger segment of the messages being relayed over the intertubes.

I don't get this Timo, I've always been limited by how much bandwidth I can purchase from the days of Delphi and Compuserve. Even if the guarantee was first come first served neutrality, someone's dozen T1 lines and billion packets would edge out my dial up single packet 9.99999999 times out of 10. The simple fact that YouTube spits out x10000 of data in itself makes them more equal than me, likewise Netflix.

Maybe that isn't the point?
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
User avatar
Pops
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 19746
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 04:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby sjn » Thu 13 Mar 2014, 18:38:12

Pops wrote:
Timo wrote:Net neutrality is about to become a thing of the past. Those who can pay for faster service will do so in order to control a larger segment of the messages being relayed over the intertubes.

I don't get this Timo, I've always been limited by how much bandwidth I can purchase from the days of Delphi and Compuserve. Even if the guarantee was first come first served neutrality, someone's dozen T1 lines and billion packets would edge out my dial up single packet 9.99999999 times out of 10. The simple fact that YouTube spits out x10000 of data in itself makes them more equal than me, likewise Netflix.

Maybe that isn't the point?

Pops, the point is routing priority though the network, not the bandwidth of your connection or Netflix's or YouTube's. Traditionally, each packet is considered equal when travelling over the "common carrier" part of the network, what you prioritize in your own network (known as traffic shaping) is up to you, and to some extent likewise for your ISP (for their own services), except Net Neutrality meant any data travelling through their network had to be treated equally. This is especially true of the back-bone Internet providers.
User avatar
sjn
Elite
Elite
 
Posts: 1332
Joined: Wed 09 Mar 2005, 04:00:00
Location: UK

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 13 Mar 2014, 20:00:59

Pops wrote: So like any despot he decided to crack down on communication and made everyone speak different languages and sent them to Siberia ( and everywhere else) to put the kibosh on any human inventiveness. It worked like a charm and humans were dirt poor for eons afterward.

So you see it as homogenization and I see it more as hybridization; mixing genes to increase vigor, develop new and better traits and in the end eliminate unnecessary competition.

How about that for a leap? LOL

.



Good analogy to the Tower of Babel.

My point of course is not to refute everything you point out as positive about the internet which I also recognize. Parallel to all these advantages however are the points I was making which are very real as well.

It's a strange mix of hybridization at the same time as globally we are all becoming more homogenized and not all that different. I remember what far off exotic travel meant 30 years ago when my parents and friends received maybe one or two post cards and phone cards from far off places cost a fortunate so we never made them.

As you say with the internet you don't have to travel half way across the world. What I say to that is why should one travel anymore when there is little difference anymore between peoples as we slowly move toward the center of homogenization.

The dreams are all speaking with one voice.

I know where the stairway is heading we are currently building. To the den of the Overshoot Predator.
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9568
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Fri 14 Mar 2014, 00:57:50

Subjectivist wrote:Today the mainstream media in TV and Radio is about 85% Democrat viewpoint with 10% Republican and 5% Libertarian. If you survey the population the break down is more like 45% Democrat, 40% Republican and 15% Libertarian.
Not wanting to hijack the discussion into another "Stupid American Partisan Squabbling Thread Part 73.3 Merged", but why would this be, considering that the MSM is owned by a handful of corporations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_cros ... Big_Six.22
Are these corporations controlled by Democrats?
Facebook knows you're a dog.
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 14 Mar 2014, 09:15:29

Keith_McClary wrote:
Subjectivist wrote:Today the mainstream media in TV and Radio is about 85% Democrat viewpoint with 10% Republican and 5% Libertarian. If you survey the population the break down is more like 45% Democrat, 40% Republican and 15% Libertarian.
Not wanting to hijack the discussion into another "Stupid American Partisan Squabbling Thread Part 73.3 Merged", but why would this be, considering that the MSM is owned by a handful of corporations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_cros ... Big_Six.22
Are these corporations controlled by Democrats?


Yes, pretty much. Only the 21st Century/Fox News is owned/controlled by Republicans/Libertarians. I make the actual market shares (measured by $) to be about 89% Democrat, 9% Republican, and 2% Libertarian/Independant. The biggest share of audience by far is Comcast, with a direct pipe into about 2/3rds of American homes.

The only time this media ownership even matters is at election time. Then network news coverage shifts until positive mentions of Republicans occur about 1/8th as much as positive mentions of Democrats. Nobody gives the Libertarians or the AIP or anybody else the time of day in an election year, above anything else the media coverage ensures that the control of both major parties remains in the hands of the 21 wealthy families who control this country.

Other nasty things occur during elections, such as the hit pieces on the TEA Party, a grass roots anti-tax movement with largely Republican and Libertarian membership. The only planks in the TEA party platform all relate to balanced government finances, which threaten the status quo determined by media ownership. Yet during an election year you will find spurious allegations about Pro-Life planks or Foriegn Policy planks or any random topic of the day attributed to the TEA Party, usually accompanied by out-of-context quotes or video clips of somebody else's protest signs. Populist movements are simply not welcome in the modern USA, where both Republican and Democrat candidates may wish to assume an entirely spurious Populist cloak during the last part of an election cycle.

Outside of election cycles, the majority of Americans get the only news they consume from two sources: 1) The Internet and 2) Local TV stations, which DO NOT reflect the same mix of political leanings as the corporations they are owned by. Instead the local TV stations tend to break largely Democrat in urban areas and largely Republican in rural areas, again with virtually no coverage of Independants or Libertarians or TEA party issues. The political split of local news is nearer 48% Democrat and 45% Republican then (and 7% "other"), much closer than at the corporate level.

The only real difference in the last 25 years is that Internet rumors have replaced both barroom and schoolyard rumors. Hit pieces are now typed rather than whispered, and target slightly different audiences, those who are semi-literate to reasonably literate, and believe things they read online (or increasingly in snippets on social media) to be The Truth.

Outside of the Media, the next part of the USA which is politically polarized is Academia, which tilts 95% Democrat. That is of course the ultimate reason for the Democratic tilt of the Media. The most partisan part of the Media is NPR and Public TV, both staffed largely by entry-level recent graduates, and hugely Liberal and Democratic, with everyone eager to make the connections with the Democratic party that lead to lucrative Media and Hollywood careers.
Last edited by KaiserJeep on Fri 14 Mar 2014, 09:52:12, edited 1 time in total.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 17:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Timo » Fri 14 Mar 2014, 09:51:29

Every year is an election year for some office. American's for Propserity has poured millions of dollars at the state levels getting the Tea Party elected to control state legislatures. They've even tried to influence the outcomes of local council elections. They are after control at every policitcal level, and have a very large voice in every level of media. Progressive are more progressive with netroots campaigning. Conservatives still rely more on the traditional media outlets, and that's not limited only to the major TV networks. That also extends to local and regional papers and radio stations. Conservatives are also much more motivated to feed at their traditional info teat than are progressives. Negative emotions and animosity motivate more than mere frustrations or trying to get by. When you see your beloved status quo changing in ways you do not approve, that fuels anger and irrational behaviour, which heavily influences the narratives you choose to listen to, which gives those with control of those narratives more power to influence the actions taken by those who feed off that narrative. Anger fuels anger, and that narrative is hardening at both ends of the spectrum, amplifying the consequences of everyone's actions.
Timo
 

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 14 Mar 2014, 10:29:47

That hardening of narratives at it source is fear and frustration. That is a potent mix that can be masterfully spun in ways to manipulate the electorate. Demonizing those in the opposition. But all of this has to play out in the field of reality where external consequences don't have party affiliation. This is a common denominator that hits across the political spectrum amongst those becoming increasingly disenfranchised.

The catalyst of consequences should be strong enough to break the polarity one would think. This will be an epic struggle between those who try to control the narrative and those being lead recognizing more and more that their leaders are all fools.

We can see this happening. Don't under estimate the American electorate for being a bunch of sheeples in this regard, especially once external consequences undermine the narrative and expose that the emperor(s) not only have no clothes but that their genitals barely peek out from their fat bellies. This will be the rhetoric we will hear from an emerging populist leader who will soon emerge harnessing the frustration of the electorate who increasingly will recognize the incompetence in leadership.

A populist leader can be a catalyst feeding on the growing frustration. What are the odds a populist leader can be a benevolent wise Ghandi type or a budding Adolf? TIme will tell.
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9568
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Timo » Fri 14 Mar 2014, 10:47:09

Ibon, i hope you're right, but we're now witnessing the removal of the right to vote from vast portions of the existing disenfranchised community, ie, lower income, older, and darker-skinned Americans. I fear that not only are the narratives being controlled, but also the means to do anything about it in protest, like vote. The Founding Fathers were very protective of the "right" to vote. No women. No slaves. Only educated landowners. We're witnessing a regression is the past 200 years of progress in that arena. It's all about control. Local and state laws are changing to protect those who pay for that control. To be perfectly blunt, we're witnessing the commerrcialization of democracy. Control goes to the highest bidder. Unfortunately, when the masses lose control over their lives and their familes and their future, they resort to violent revolutions. That's the only means at their disposal. World-wide, we're seeing that happening right now.
Timo
 

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 14 Mar 2014, 10:56:02

Even if the new populist leader is as peaceful a Muhatma Ghandi his successor will not be. Low energy societies are almost always very hierarchical in form with very strong resistance to advancement from anyone below unless the lower class do something spectacular for the upper.

If the current 1% are smart they will be finding ways to stay the upper class in the next version of our civilization. When William I conquered England in 1066 those locals who fully assissted him became the lesser nobility and their children married up into the new ruling class. Those who resisted were eliminated and their children who managed to survive either self exiled or became commoner merchant class members of society.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
Subjectivist
Volunteer
Volunteer
 
Posts: 4701
Joined: Sat 28 Aug 2010, 07:38:26
Location: Northwest Ohio

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 14 Mar 2014, 14:37:37

Timo wrote:Unfortunately, when the masses lose control over their lives and their familes and their future, they resort to violent revolutions. That's the only means at their disposal. World-wide, we're seeing that happening right now.


Related to this is something I have posted before. My daughter spent 4 years in the Philippines at a university and did some social justice work with the poor. She wrote me once a conclusion she came to which has relevance to your post. What she said was that the poor, who are so exhausted just to make ends meet and survive have no spare capacity to fight for social justice while the rich, who have the time and resources, don't because their wealth comes from the very inequity that causes the poverty.

The desinfranchisement of the poor and weakening middle class is moving the US into a 2 class society resembling more and more a 3rd world country. A permenant underclass.

In these discussions I end up being conflicted and somewhat ambigious. I am not exactly a fan of a global strong middle class where fake democracy acts as a thin veneer over what is really a promotion of commericalism and consumption.

A growing disparity between rich and poor with a permanant underclass and small elite is more the historical norm and probably a much better arrangement for humans on the planet in terms of ever reaching sustainability. Freedom for a very few and serfdom for the rest. The only exception in the history of human civilization of this norm is the last 150 years of fossil fuel exploitation that allowed affluence to depart from a small elite and bloom into hundreds of millions of consuming middle class. This has not been good for the planet.
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9568
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 14 Mar 2014, 15:54:25

Subjectivist wrote:If the current 1% are smart they will be finding ways to stay the upper class in the next version of our civilization. When William I conquered England in 1066 those locals who fully assissted him became the lesser nobility and their children married up into the new ruling class. Those who resisted were eliminated and their children who managed to survive either self exiled or became commoner merchant class members of society.


This is a very good explanation for why the status quo will remain resilient and the narrative harden. It also compliments my last post. Adaptation to constraints will require us to abandon a concept of freedom for all as we re adjust into a more historical norm in terms of distribution of wealth.

Any doubt that the erosion of the middle class we have witnessed the past 40 years will not continue and accelerate? In developing countries serfdom from the toil of agrarian life has moved into an only modest improvement toiling in factories for under $ 5 a day.

Here in Panama the salary ranges from $ 10 a day for an agricultural workers to $ 30 a day for a construction forman. A professional maybe brings in $10-12k a year.

In the US we have such a long way to fall to come anywhere near to parity with the rest of the world. Such a challenge for a culture taught to feel entitled to have only the best.
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9568
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Hardening narratives with increased external consequence

Unread postby Timo » Tue 18 Mar 2014, 15:14:00

Ibon wrote:In the US we have such a long way to fall to come anywhere near to parity with the rest of the world. Such a challenge for a culture taught to feel entitled to have only the best.

Tru dat. I remember very clearly thinking that same thought back when NAFTA was approved. Economic opportunity is something to be championed. However, the glut of free trade across the planet has resulted in some economic improvements, but those gains have been more than offset by downward conditions faced by the Western world, and the US in particular. We're on pace to gain economic equality, sure enough, but at the lowest level. Us Merkans aren't so happy with how that's working out.
Timo
 

PreviousNext

Return to Peak Oil Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 97 guests