[dissident]

The THC is not some well defined river of water like shown in various idealized figures. That some local current has stopped does not mean the warm water is not going elsewhere and that said local current is gone forever.

There were some hysterical articles in the last 10 years about the THC "shutting down". This rubbish gets spread about as if it is going to happen and Europe will freeze. These articles need to be thrown in the trash bin where they belong. Perhaps the deniers can look at true sensationalist nonsense.

As long as the Earth is spinning and the Sun is shining there will be a THC. Transient local disruptions such as the outflow of massive inland ice-dam lakes during the Younger-Dryas are simply not going to happen today. Dumping some oil in the Gulf of Mexico will not shut down the Gulf stream because any heating effects don't change the fact that there are boundary currents (related to the Earth's rotation and coastlines) and that eddy interaction with the mean flow is the primary driving mechanism for the large scale overturning (meridional) circulation in the oceans (just like in the atmosphere). Perhaps the additional oil heating will produce higher sea surface temperatures that may change the evolution of hurricane entering the Gulf.

As AGW progresses and the oceans warm, there will be more stratification as the deep circulation weakens. The Arctic Ocean will warm up since nothing is stopping shallow surface currents. No ice age in Europe for the next 10,000 years at the very least. But judging by how much CO2 is going to be dumped by the human insect swarm this century, we are looking at no more ice age conditions for 100,000s years. The warming, stratifying oceans will stop being a sink (toilet) for our CO2 pollution and instead will spew it out adding vast amounts to what we produced.

[Ludi]

There were some hysterical articles in the last 10 years about the THC "shutting down". This rubbish gets spread about as if it is going to happen and Europe will freeze. These articles need to be thrown in the trash bin where they belong. Perhaps the deniers can look at true sensationalist nonsense.

http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?cid=9986&pid=12455&tid=282

'The equatorial sun warms the ocean surface and enhances evaporation in the tropics. This leaves the tropical ocean saltier. The Gulf Stream, a limb of the Ocean Conveyor, carries an enormous volume of heat-laden, salty water up the East Coast of the United States, and then northeast toward Europe.

This oceanic heat pump is an important mechanism for reducing equator-to-pole temperature differences. It moderates Earth’s climate, particularly in the North Atlantic region. Conveyor circulation increases the northward transport of warmer waters in the Gulf Stream by about 50 percent. At colder northern latitudes, the ocean releases this heat to the atmosphere—especially in winter when the atmosphere is colder than the ocean and ocean-atmosphere temperature gradients increase. The Conveyor warms North Atlantic regions by as much as 5° Celsius and significantly tempers average winter temperatures.

But records of past climates—from a variety of sources such as deep-sea sediments and ice-sheet cores—show that the Conveyor has slowed and shut down several times in the past. This shutdown curtailed heat delivery to the North Atlantic and caused substantial cooling throughout the region. One earth scientist has called the Conveyor “the Achilles’ heel of our climate system.”'

Woods Hole - what do they know?

[dissident]

A clear example where you don't understand the material you are quoting.

Where are the words GLOBAL and TOTAL SHUTDOWN in your citation. The deep, haline driven component was disrupted for a few years during the Younger-Dryas in the NORTH ATLANTIC. So that would be LOCAL and TRANSIENT. Learn how to read and then get an education in this field.

You also appear to think that Woods Hole knows nothing about the eddy driven meridional overturning circulation. This is the predominant driving mechanism for the THC. The haline component is a relaxational response to it. It is a clear analog of the temperature response in the middle atmosphere where you have a Newtonian cooling, -r(T-T_radiative). In the oceans it is the buoyancy that plays this role and there is a Newtonian relaxation forcing term of the form -r(b-b_mean). Note that relaxational forcing terms cannot be seen to drive the circulation although they contribute to its distribution. Wiping out the buoyancy difference with a 1 Sv release of fresh water into the NORTH ATLANTIC produced a TRANSIENT reduction in this forcing term.

If you think that Greenland is going to melt in a few years you are clueless. And if it did, there would be no permanent shut down of the THC.

[eXpat]

At the beginning of the Oil spill, BP selected a company called P2S to carry on the BP'S Gulf Coast cleanup
Fluor subsidiary P2S selected to support BP'S Gulf Coast cleanup

cFluor Corporation says that its Global Services' subsidiary, Plant Performance Services (P2S), was selected by BP to execute two contracts to support its Gulf Coast cleanup efforts. P2S will be providing logistics, procurement and personnel support to BP in Alabama and Florida where cleanup activities are currently underway. Fluor will book revenue on these services contracts as it occurs on a quarterly basis.

P2S's scope of work for BP will include the following: • As part of the Qualified Community Responder (QCR) program, assisting BP in recruiting, hiring, training, deploying and managing 500 local cleanup workers in each of the 12 coastal counties in Alabama (two counties) and Florida (10 counties in the Gulf Panhandle); and • Providing logistics, procurement and warehousing support for BP across the Gulf Coast in support of the company's ongoing cleanup efforts.

'In supporting the Gulf Coast recovery, the mission priority for our P2S team is to hire local citizens and provide coordinated, safe training and supervision for the cleanup activities along the coast where they live,' said Kirk Grimes, president of Fluor's Global Services Group.

http://www.scandoil.com/moxie-bm2/news/fluor-subsidiary-p2s-selected-to-support-bps-gulf-.shtml
Well apparently the Gulf is now clean enough, because the cleaning is about to stop:

Plant Performance Services has been proud to support the Gulf Coast cleanup and recovery efforts in response to the Deepwater Horizon incident. Since May 2010, P2S has provided beach cleanup services, warehousing and logistics management, and wildlife observers as part of the response and recovery program.

Effective Sunday, September 19, P2S's beach cleanup work has come to an end. This includes the Qualified Community Responder program, which involved providing job opportunities for local, unemployed residents of counties directly impacted by the oil.

http://www.p2sworld.com/BP_Oil_Spill_Cleanup.html
Shocking...

[KevO]

http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in-national/top-ex-oilfield-executive-gulf-operation-is-depopulation-event

Ex-oilfield executive of 25 years, now human rights defender Ian Crane stated Friday during Voice America “In Discussion” radio program that the Gulf of Mexico operation was a planned population reduction event. During the program, key Gulf advocates disclosed that over 100,000 Gulf people are already plague victims, hundreds of millions more will be impacted, and BP has paid enormous sums of money to keep Gulf activists from having a voice nationally.

“BP has made sure that activists are not campaigning on a national level. They are keeping them local so the corporate world is not threatened,” Crane told show host, David Gibbons.

Hard-hitting interview comments

With capacity to apply forensic analysis to events that led to Deepwater Horizon's destruction on April 20, Crane identified the individual ultimately responsible for what transpired in the Gulf, the man who must be required to answer deep and probing questions about his allegiances outside of BP. In a Bloomberg TV interview, this individual was described as a '32 year old punk' by Matthew Simmons a few days before found dead in his hot tub.

Continue reading on Examiner.com: Top ex-oilfield executive says Gulf op a depopulation event. 100,000 now sick. - National Human Rights | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/human-rights-in ... z1FuVNR8zm

Matt Simmons assassinated?

[timmac]

From Article :
Would I stay [in the Gulf Region] now? Absolutely not," said Crane, adding, "But I understand that is absolutely not possible for many people now. When it comes to health of your children and grandchildren, there is so much doubt. This whole thing is an experiment."

I don't really beleave in this kind of Tin Foil, why would they use a oil leak to reduce population, seems rather sloppy and expensive with little to no outcome, why not just a Germ and blame it on a terrorist attack, seems much cheaper, easier and full proff.

[americandream]

From Article :
Would I stay [in the Gulf Region] now? Absolutely not," said Crane, adding, "But I understand that is absolutely not possible for many people now. When it comes to health of your children and grandchildren, there is so much doubt. This whole thing is an experiment."

I don't really beleave in this kind of Tin Foil, why would they use a oil leak to reduce population, seems rather sloppy and expensive with little to no outcome, why not just a Germ and blame it on a terrorist attack, seems much cheaper, easier and full proff.

For once, we are in agreement. This is total whacko stuff.

[dohboi]

http://blog.al.com/live/2011/08/deepwater_trouble_on_the_horiz.html

Deepwater trouble on the horizon: oil discovered floating near source of Gulf of Mexico spill

Oil is once again fouling the Gulf of Mexico around the Deepwater Horizon well, which was capped a little over a year ago.

Tuesday afternoon, hundreds of small, circular patches of oily sheen dotted the surface within a mile of the wellhead. With just a bare sheen present over about a quarter-mile, the scene was a far cry from the massive slick that covered the Gulf last summer.

Floating in a boat near the well site, Press-Register reporters watched blobs of oil rise to the surface and bloom into iridescent yellow patches. Those patches quickly expanded into rainbow sheens 4 to 5 feet across.

Each expanding bloom released a pronounced and pungent petroleum smell. Most of the oil was located in a patch about 50 yards wide and a quarter of a mile long.

The source of the oil was unclear, but a chemical analysis by Louisiana State University scientists confirmed that it was a sweet Louisiana crude, and could possibly be from BP PLC’s well.

http://www.stuarthsmith.com/nowhere-to-hide-new-damning-evidence-that-oil-at-bps-deepwater-horizon-site-is-from-macondo-well-photos

Nowhere to Hide: New Damning Evidence That Oil At BP’s Deepwater Horizon Site Is From Macondo Well

BP’s renewed denials of our allegation that oil is rising from its Macondo Well are withering under damning new evidence. With all eyes once again on the site that launched the worst environmental disaster in U.S. history, experts from LSU to UC Berkeley are weighing in on what is quickly becoming a brutal reality for BP, our federal government and, tragically, the beleaguered people of the Gulf Coast.

The Gift that keeps on giving. (Note that Gift is German for 'poison.')

[basil_hayden]

I'd bet the bacteria working on the sludge on the sea floor is lightening it, and making it bouyantly rise to the surface.

Not a new leak, but just as bad toxicity wise.

Hopefully it all does not get munched and rise at the same time.

[Keith_McClary]

Oil Leaks/Spills (merged)

I wanted to post about

BP yesterday agreed to pay a fine

I searched with:
site:peakoil.com/forums bp
but when I click on suitable threads I get:

The requested topic does not exist.

(And don't we want people to be able to find PO discussions via searches?)

[Timo]

THIS is unacceptable!
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/09/26/researchers-sonar-mapping-for-oil-near-madagascar-killed-100-whales/
Is it even possible for humanity to learn to respect the non-human, ergo undisturbed world? We're hell-bent on destroying anything and everything for the mere satisfaction of perpetuating our jouney toward self-inflicted extinction. There is a very special place in Hell for the people who devise and carry out such endeavors. Rest in perpetual agony, Bastards!

[rollin]

You said it well Timo. The murderous greed is rampant throughout our world.
Destruction of sea mammals and fish may soon be coming to the Atlantic coast. Right now the decision has been put off by the government, but that leaves the door open since this government is a fence sitter and won't go directly against the oil companies on environmental issues, merely delays them by not making a decision.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sheryl-cr ... 75608.html

Problem is that the hell will come in the near future to those still living. All because of a lack of will and vision stifled by poor leadership and massive fossil fuel lobbying. They sold our souls to the devil and the devil will play.
We all live morally and ethically bankrupt through enforced complicity.

[pwallmann]

Is it worse to accidentally kill a bunch of whales, or to purposefully kill countless chickens, pigs, cows, fish, etc.? I haven't given this type of thing much thought (because I'd hate to reach the conclusion that I need to give up bacon) but it does strike me as odd that the manslaughterish killing of 100 whales would be considered worse then the genocidalish killing of millions of animals. Ie. don't fisherman pose a bigger threat to fish population then oil exploration?

[ROCKMAN]

p – I avoided commenting since I’m a well know oil industry pimp. LOL. But since you brought up the subject of which animal friends get to live and which are killed I’ll also open myself up to some public lashing. I don’t hunt much now but used to. I never got off to killing animals. Not why I hunted. Always a tad of sadness taking a deer down. Not so much with a pig. But I’ve done so many times. And countless more times I’ve dined on mammals taken down by others. Not as much sadness looking at a plastic wrapped steak at the grocery.

But as a hunter I’ve never had patience with other hunters that killed game just for the sake of killing. IMHO that wasn’t why they were put on the earth. I regret those whales dying as much as any deer I’ve killed while driving down a highway in Texas. A waste for sure but I’m not going to stop driving on Texas highways. The loss of those whales is such a waste. If such incidences can be avoid while still getting the job done it should. But if it can’t…it can’t. We can’t build wind turbines that don’t kill birds either.

There’s also a minor question of honesty about the article. The seismic activity didn’t kill those whales. They died because they beached themselves. But the seismic activity might have disoriented them and caused the beaching. Can’t rule out that possibility. And if it was the cause it probably wasn’t the first such incident. OTOH hundreds of thousands of miles of similar seismic activity has been conducted in the GOM for decades. And there may have been some cases of such collateral damage but I don’t recall every hearing of whale loses. But there are a lot of eyes along the GOM so you would expect some reporting if it were common.

So it does back to whether such losses are acceptable. To some, no such loss is acceptable. I can appreciate those honest feelings. But life can’t stop because of such incidences. That doesn’t mean efforts shouldn’t be taken to minimize those loses but for the most part they are accepted by the majority as the cost of doing business. That doesn’t mean everyone should see the majority as being right in such circumstances. But they are still the majority.

Obviously there’s no comfort in my words for those upset with the death of these whales. There shouldn’t be. I get upset myself when I recall the mental image of shiny aluminum boxes offloading in Dover. Lots of different loses I wish we didn’t have to bear. But, unfortunately, some we do.

[rollin]

I think it is quite possible for humans to appreciate and respect their fellow creatures. We would not have so many laws protecting creatures, especially endangered ones, nor would we have all the conservancies and parks if many did not think that way. There is a component of humanity that truly likes to kill and cares less about destruction. There is also a large component who empathize with other living things and respect what the earth for what it is not as something to be sucked dry, poisoned and tossed aside.

Sadly most people feel compelled by circumstances to push forward the psychopathic machine that is civilization. Those sane ones who are unable to cope with the horrible reality they produce come up with reams of justification for their actions. It is just justification and not based on truth, the truth is too difficult to face. As we saw in the twentieth century, anything can be justified, anything. That does not mean we should do it or that there is no better way.

I don't think it is a choice between pigs and whales. We have already chosen not to kill more whales. The fish are decimated too, and good sense would be to not kill more. Especially to suck up more oozing's of the dead and pump it into our atmosphere to help wreck the environment. We know that is bad yet sense has not prevailed yet.

Rockman, there is a lot of evidence showing that seismic blasts injure and kill whales and fish life. If the death does not occur right on the spot, that is still the cause. If an injury to a human by another human causes death days later in another spot, the attacker is still judged and incarcerated.

The descent after peak oil and peak other resources will be a very strong lesson. Humanity will cull itself of the sick and twisted personalities that have a wanton desire to control and destroy everything. Either that or perish as they bring the species to brink once again.

[pwallmann]

rollin - I don't think Rockman's saying that he believes the seismic testing didn't, or couldn't have, cause the death of those whales. I think he's saying there isn't really enough evidence to claim that it DID cause them. A bit more to his point, it's about consistency. If it were as simple as seismic testing causes significant displacement, confusion, or whatever... then we'd likely see this kind of event occurring much more frequently. Since we are not, I'm guessing he's just a bit skeptical at drawing this type of causal link (as I am).

But a bit more on consistency, look at the group that put out this report. Imagine if it were a pro anything oil related and it had even the scent of oil money on it. To do some generalizing, most "environmentalists" would immediately dismiss it as industry propaganda. As long as data is published there is no reason why anything should be dismissed out of hand. And I'm certainly not saying this should be dismissed out of hand. But again, it seems a bit odd that this type of report wouldn't be dismissed using the same logic (if you aren't the type to dismiss industry sponsored studies then I apologize, just a general observation on this sort of thing).

[agramante]

Very honest answer, Rock. In a lot of primitive societies, giving thanks to the animal killed for food and other necessities was a standard part of the hunt. If nothing else it cultivated a respect in the minds of the hunters so that they would not be reckless or wasteful in how they killed. That's opposed somewhat diametrically to the modern conceit that the world is capital's oyster. All life is precious--the plankton in the arctic under stress as the water warms, the bug killed on the car's windshield, whales and dolphins perhaps disoriented or deafened by seismic and sonar work, starving humans. Life feeds on life, both directly and indirectly.

No doubt mechanizing life to the extent we have has desensitized just about all of us--even a hunter like you who's followed the process from hunting or slaughtering, through to eating--can forget, or worse never even learn, how lives of animals are sacrificed for what we eat. Lots of people grow up in urban settings and never know that hamburgers come from cows. I have an in-law who thinks that gasoline comes straight up a pipe from rocks inside the earth to the gas pump, with no other human effort required.

What's true is that the effects of our society, both those we anticipate and those we don't, will come home to roost. What we don't know will (and does) hurt us, even if we aren't aware enough to name it as a cause. Ambient, background-level, dangerous chemicals in the air and water. Low-level radiation. And plenty more besides these. What we can't know, even in cases where we're aware of the problems, is whether we've passed a tipping point. It's hard enough to intelligently gauge whether global oil production is at its peak right now, or a little before, or a little after. Never mind much tougher questions such as, Yes, the planet is warming up, but have we passed irreversibly into a phase of rapid global temperature increase? It seems possible with some of the arctic methane releases, but no one really knows. In pretty much every way modern society is a gigantic uncontrolled experiment and we just don't have sufficient perspective to answer questions like these with certainty.

Restricting the view a bit, natural resource economics tries to assign dollar values to environmental effects of industrial activity. Simply put, as a question of thermodynamics, it draws the system boundaries a lot farther out from the plants and transport mechanisms than traditional profit-and-loss analyses do. And of course in almost every case the profit is reduced (or becomes a loss) because the environmental effects are large, or at least costlier than traditional analysis admits (or even bothers to consider). I haven't read any natural resource economics analyses on things like tar sands or deepwater oil production, but I'd suspect that, analogous to considerations of EROEI, they're drawing a lot closer to the break-even point than people want to think about.

[kiwichick]

roc........windturbines killing birds?

[jedrider]

Interesting thread.

I had to kill a rat that infested my house recently. It didn't want to be killed, of course, and it didn't want to leave my house, either.

Vermin, I say.

Move over rat, here comes humans!