[ROCKMAN]

“Once they are out on bail they are basically free to leave the country never to come back.” If the Russian laws are anything like US laws that’s not likely unless they try to sneak out of the country. They can’t legally leave Russia without an exit permit even if you’re not out on bail. Heck, I doubt they’ll even have their passports.

And if they didn’t realize the potential risk from the Russian govt they were ridiculously naïve. In Texas I wouldn’t take anything close to such an attitude with any of our cops. And we have rights here folks in Russia can only dream of. And La. can be a bit more dangerous: disrupt drilling ops in Plaquemines Parish and you’ll end up in the parish prison. And be lucky if you can eventually walk out under your own power. LOL. But I’m very serious.

[dissident]

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20131122/184881 ... -Bail.html

28 of the 30 have now been released on bail. We'll see how many actually stand trial. All of them are serious flight risks and there has been enough time to schedule a trial for at least some of them.

[Sixstrings]

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20131119/184798375/Greenpeace-Collects-Money-to-Bail-Activists-Jailed-in-Russia.html

The flood gates are opening. Once they are out on bail they are basically free to leave the country never to come back. Russia probably won't even bother to put them on the Interpol wanted list.

If this is a backdoor way to just let them go without Russia losing face, then it seems fair to me. The message has been sent. There's no need to put these people through a trial, and potentially years in prison.

[SeaGypsy]

I would not be too confident of that 6- bail usually requires passport surrender. Emergency passports can be issued by Embassies, but to do so would be a serious diplomatic snub- (something the US has some justification for over the Snowden affair- but these weren't Americans).

[Sixstrings]

Russia is correct in slapping these clowns around for trying to disrupt the work by this oil rig on a repeating basis.

Maybe they have some points. Maybe Gazprom could do something to improve safety. There should be a balance here and not just overly harsh punishments for protesters, listen to them don't just "slap them around," whether they are foreign or Russians who are protesting.

It's important for a democracy to have this balance and pressure release valve, for those in power to *listen* when there are protests not just "slap around."

The more they are "slapped around," the madder people get, and it doesn't help anything.

If GP was so concerned about the environment it would do a global tour of oil rigs instead of fixating on this particular one.

I agree with you there.

[Sixstrings]

I would not be too confident of that 6- bail usually requires passport surrender. Emergency passports can be issued by Embassies, but to do so would be a serious diplomatic snub- (something the US has some justification for over the Snowden affair- but these weren't Americans).

Didn't most of Pussy Riot get out of Russia while on bail? How did they do that?

I have no way of knowing, just sounds like a face-saving thing for Russia to do, let them out on bail and just ignore their exiting the country. If they can get out while on bail then they should, there's no reason to stay in Russia to face piracy charges for goodness sake. As for diplomatic snubs, as you say Russia granted Snowden asylum (which I was glad to see, but still, major snub there). One of the held is American, I wonder if he got bail or not. Probably not and here he seems like such a nice guy just a 60-something year old boat captain. If our American can make it home from Russia I'd certainly assume we would let him in and NOT SEND HIM BACK to RUSSIA. These piracy charges aren't fair. We should grant that American asylum from Russia, seems fair to me.

Really just letting them get away while on bail is a good solution, I'm thinking that's what will happen, unless these GP people are really loony and stick around for a trial and won't take the out offered them. From these things I read about Russia, seems like they do this backdoor sort of thing sometimes / choose not to enforce laws sometimes. Whatever works. If they let them leave Russia then that's fair enough, message sent, GP lost their ship just let it go already. This was civil disobedience, they were unarmed, they didn't hurt anyone, all they did was try to climb the rig. Just let them go. And GP and any other foreign protesters should now know that Russia is one of those countries they need to stay away from.

[sparky]

.
One of the pussy riot , the fourth , is supposed to have made a run for it
one was released on appeal .

The Russian justice system generally work OK but provincial judges are often hard boiled old Stalinist
with a dim view of rabble rousers , some would get people shot for littering
several times , for prominent cases ,the Kremlin had to lean on them toward moderation

A new generation is slowly taking over the tribunals ,but they are not the brightest ,
judges are very badly paid and the profession has little standing .
Petersburg and Moscow get the best new judges first


Only one of the Greenpeace is kept locked , the Australian radio operator
hard to work out why
usual Russian stuff up , a stroppy judge making a point he is not a pushover
paranoia suspicion he is a planted spy ( not unusual among NGO )

I believe it's the usual Russian style ,
last year first action by Greenpeace against the platform went as planed
the authorities did nothing
Greenpeace doing it again this year , in spite of repeated clear warning not to , was very stupid
once aroused they were going to get the stick
it was NOT a peaceful protest , it was a non violent protest ,
someone invading your back garden might be non violent but disturbing the peace

gas platform are no place for amateurs or uncalled for distractions
Having worked on oil rigs , I totally support the severe beating an locking up
of immature idiots breaching basic safety requirements ,

they could have protested on red square , there always is a dozen protests or so everyday
pussy riot had an unauthorized gig on the rostrum , they didn't even get a traffic violation
then , they went desecrating the main orthodox cathedral and , surprise surprise , got thumped .

[SeaGypsy]

According to recent news all have been bailed bar one Australian, due to some technical error- he should be out this week. It would be very unusual for these people to be handed their passports as they leave court. Who knows? Russia has a lot of borders which may not be too difficult to cross without a passport- but the risk?- Probably straight back to the can with revocation of bail.
(Sparky- the Judge was a she)

[Sixstrings]

Russia has a lot of borders which may not be too difficult to cross without a passport- but the risk?- Probably straight back to the can with revocation of bail.

It just seems to me that if they're granted bail in the first place, it's a tacit okay to just bug out of Russia. Because obviously they are a massive flight risk. But yet they've gotten bail. Is that not an "out" to just leave and then Russia saves face and it's over with?

Consider what Sparky said:

The Russian justice system generally work OK but provincial judges are often hard boiled old Stalinist
with a dim view of rabble rousers , some would get people shot for littering
several times , for prominent cases ,the Kremlin had to lean on them toward moderation

A new generation is slowly taking over the tribunals ,but they are not the brightest ,
judges are very badly paid and the profession has little standing .
Petersburg and Moscow get the best new judges first

So what a decision to make.. they're out on bail.. do you get out while the gettin's good or roll the dice with Russian justice? Judges who aren't "the brightest" and not well paid or respected. Jesus.

Here's the thing, these guys are facing such heavy time it's like a international drug trafficking charge and it's not right, they were protesters who tried to climb a rig. Apparently Russia doesn't even have an applicable law for this and so they went for piracy -- that, or a more sensible lesser charge has no serious time attached and they overcharged just because they felt like it.

If one finds oneself lost in a morass of a messy scary and severe foreign judicial system, and you didn't even do anything wrong to justify the charges, do you do "the right thing" and stick around to show up for the trial or do you get the hell out if you can?

[SeaGypsy]

Not without a passport.

[SeaGypsy]

Just found this on GP's webnews:

According to Russian media reports, the Russian migration service FMS has said that that the released foreign nationals will not be allowed to leave St Petersburg and will need to stay in Russia pending the criminal investigation (1).

Greenpeace International cannot confirm those reports until the bail conditions of all detainees are known. The non-Russians already released have had their passports returned to them and have a special registration card that will allow them to remain in Russia legally.
For now, the foreign nationals will stay at safe place in St Petersburg. There is still no clarity on when the Arctic 30 can leave Russia and finally be able to return home.

http://m.greenpeace.org/international/e ... an-prison/

With passports but without permission to leave St Petersburg. I know what I'd be doing and it would involve a boat and the Baltic.

[sparky]

.
"Russia has a lot of borders which may not be too difficult to cross without a passport"
The authorities would take a very hard line

It would be pretty difficult to get 30 people out and Russians are very , very touchy about their sovereign rights
they would hit the roof and exige their return

- Finland has a treaty to send back illegal straight away ,
- the Baltic states have enough friction with Moscow not to want this on their plate
- Belorussia is a bad idea , the government there make Putin look like Santa
- Kazakhstan would even bother with the paperwork , same with central Asia "stans"
- Georgia is trying to get back on the good side of their big neighbor
.......and that's about it
on top , if some run the rest would be locked up again straight away
their sentencing made harsher
the Russian members of Greenpeace would be left in the frying pan

as I say before Russian justice is more or less OK
being judged in Petersburg is a very good sign , Murmansk is deep in the sticks
the sign are good that as long as they bow their heads ,
they take a nominal penalty and are left out after a few weeks .
an example will be made , then some leniency displayed
Russian would take a very hard line if made to look like fools
their best bet is to sit tight an cop it , they are an embarrassment better to be rid of

[Sixstrings]

With passports but without permission to leave St Petersburg. I know what I'd be doing and it would involve a boat and the Baltic.

Exactly, this is what I expected. It sounds like a wink / nod to just leave.

I don't know if they do ankle bracelet monitoring in Russia, but that sort of thing would be a serious bail condition and prevent flight.

Ultimately, I assume their Russian lawyers and the various embassies will get the message to them if they ought to just leave or not. And if they stay for trial, this sign of leniency with bail is some hope they won't really get convicted and sent to prison. Still a risk, though.. can you imagine, five years into hard time in Russian prison and thinking to yourself that you had your passport and all you had to do was just get across the border and you'd be safe at home with your family?

The American is in his sixties. He has a wife and young daughters, nice family in New England. If he gets hard time he'd probably die in prison, what's the point of that, he didn't hurt anyone.

[Sixstrings]

Just saw this, did someone post this already in this thread? The activists were released because the United Nations ordered Russia to:

UN-backed tribunal orders Russia to release Greenpeace protest ship and crew

22 November 2013 – The United Nations-backed International Tribunal for the Law of the Sea today ordered that Russia release the Greenpeace ship and its crew that it seized in September following a protest over oil drilling off its coast, once the Netherlands posts a bond of 3.6 million euros.

By a vote of 19 to 2, the Tribunal’s judges today ordered that, pending arbitration, Russia “shall immediately release the vessel Arctic Sunrise and all persons who have been detained, upon the posting of a bond or other financial security by the Netherlands which shall be in the amount of 3,600,000 euros…”
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=46561&Cr=law+of+the+sea&Cr1=#.UpOJPsRJ6LI

Well thank goodness for international maritime law and sensible justice, you can't just go seizing another nation's flagged ship and claim piracy, the crew thrown in jail.

[Sixstrings]

To be fair and balanced, will just note again that back int he 1980s the French bombed a GP ship and killed a photographer. The American captained that ship too.

Russian Prison Stuns Captain of Greenpeace’s Bombed Ship

In July 1985, agents from France’s DGSE intelligence agency planted a bomb on the Rainbow Warrior in the port of Auckland to prevent it from sailing toward a nuclear-testing site, killing a photographer on board.
“This time it was almost equally as emotional,” Willcox said.

Russia detained 30 people from 18 countries -- 28 activists and two journalists -- for participating in a protest at an OAO Gazprom offshore oil platform in September after storming the Greenpeace ship and towing it to the port of Murmansk.

“Here in international waters off Russia, we were doing what we’ve done before and expected nothing like this -- and so when we got towed into Murmansk, we were absolutely shocked that they charged us with piracy, it was something that we had never considered,” he said. The “uncertainty” of not knowing if they faced lengthy prison terms and their isolation from the outside world was the most difficult thing, he added.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-11-25/russian-prison-stuns-captain-of-greenpeace-s-bombed-ship.html

[Synapsid]

Sixstrings,

What tells you that the activists have been released?

Russia repudiated the tribunal's order.

[sparky]

.
The tribunal is no such thing ,
it's an international committee of jurists set to arbitrate boundaries dispute between sovereign nations

they have no judicial function as such

[Sixstrings]

Sixstrings,

What tells you that the activists have been released?

Russia repudiated the tribunal's order.

Looking at the sequence of events, seems like the bail came right after the UN tribunal order.

As for "repudiating," isn't it important there's some kind of international maritime law arbitration and that it's respected? If Russia won't respect the UN order, what is the Netherlands supposed to do go out and seize a Russian ship?

[Synapsid]

Sixstrings,

"Repudiate" was maybe not the correct word. Russia said that the tribunal had no jurisdiction, and that the activists had broken Russian law.

I'm parroting here.

[sparky]

.
Moscow has had a consistent attitude putting their national law above any international body
unless it has been agreed beforehand.

"you can't just go seizing another nation's flagged ship and claim piracy"

Yes you can , piracy , weapon smuggling and slaving , even on suspicion are ground for the countries to intercept ,
search , seize and arrest .
there is precedent for a country arresting people on board a neutral vessel
see the Trent incident for example
recently a presidential plane ( deemed a ship in international law ) was forced down
and searched looking for Snowden

As for going to jail , I've said it before ,
once condemned in a Russian court of law , you are taken out of remand jail and given to the carceral system
everybody go to work camps , people usually report the camps as better than being locked up
there is six different grades ,ranging from light and easy , close to home ,
to hard remote camps full of really tough criminals with tough guards on top .
the discipline is enforced by having other inmates acting on the administration wishes
usually women sew uniforms , men chop wood ,they live in communal barracks

there is some exception such as the White swan penitentiary , for the really hard and difficult "tigers"
it's reported as extreme , even by Russian standard .