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Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 18

What matters gets measured

Unread postby CarlosFerreira » Mon 03 Nov 2008, 13:35:36

Hats off to one good news:
MrBill, in another thread, wrote:As they say, what matters gets measured. Even if the gains of a cap & trade system for emissions are modest at first it starts a conversation and gets stakeholders thinking.

So, in the spirit of measuring, things move on:
BBC News wrote:A new standard that allows UK firms to measure the size of their goods' carbon footprints has been launched.
It is hoped the new audit will show customers how much CO2 has been emitted during the production, consumption and disposal of a range of products.

Understandably, news like this hardly ever make it to the front pages. But, as environmental problems mount, and measures are necessary to stop and reverse our current over-use of resources, the fact that there's an standardized measure of ecological footprint will help not only devise, but mostly implement and assess policies in the future. All in all, good news!
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Re: What matters gets measured

Unread postby highlander » Mon 03 Nov 2008, 15:21:39

Actually, I believe the saying is

not everything you can measure matters
and
not everything that matters can be measured
This is where everybody puts profound words written by another...or not so profound words written by themselves
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Re: What matters gets measured

Unread postby Duende » Mon 03 Nov 2008, 15:26:44

Thanks for the links!
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Re: What matters gets measured

Unread postby CarlosFerreira » Mon 03 Nov 2008, 15:54:40

highlander wrote:Actually, I believe the saying is: not everything you can measure matters
and not everything that matters can be measured

I didn't know the saying, but it makes a lot of sense. I'm glad we now are developing tools measure some of the things that do matter!
Duende wrote:Thanks for the links!

No problem. I've been collecting a lot of environmental news, you can find them at this site link
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Peak Energy and Climate Change - The Logical Connections

Unread postby scas » Sun 26 Dec 2010, 16:26:14

Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe... Yet, clumsily or smoothly, the world, it seems, progresses and will progress. - H.G. Wells

I've found that many people on the board believe that peak oil is real, and that the range of effects will be mild to catastrophic. Intuitively, it's easy to understand how a finite resource mined or drilled at exponential rates will level off and begin decline. The next step – climate change - is a little harder and less intuitive, and given the 40 years lag between fuel oxidation and Earth heating, it is plausible that sufficient carbon can be ejected into the atmosphere, depleting the bulk of readily available fuels long before we see the full extent of Hot Earth’s effects in the horizon.

Before we can adapt to changing conditions, we have to understand that what is happening is real both in our and our children’s lifetime. I will try to make some of the connections here in the interest of speeding up understanding. Some of the processes handicapping change are insufficient knowledge, psychological distancing, extreme skepticism, chosen ignorance, data cherry-picking, fatalism, and conspiracy motives such as profiteering or global domination. It is not my intention to argue, but to enlighten, impart knowledge, and at the very least make for some entertaining reading. I also acknowledge that I may make errors and be wrong in part. Corrections are welcome.

By viewing man as he transitions through forms of hunter-gatherer, agricultural tribal, township, cities, countries, and eventually globalized world, it can be seen that increased societal complexity is only possible through ever increasing usage of energy. Early societies did this primarily by growing carbohydrate rich foods and hunting game. Latter societies grew grains and farmed animals. Eventually, we grew to include wood and coal, ultimately to our present industrial society which utilizes all of the above including oil, gas, fission, hydro, and solar. Of our energy sources, fossil fuels provide the vast majority of our energy needs, and as supplies dwindle we turn evermore to photosynthesis for biomass – itself requiring the judicious use of fossil fuel fertilizers. All societies, upon surpassing peak energy, must become more efficient or risk losing complexity. Some societies, myopic of the changing energy conditions, collapse completely.

Of the fossil fuels we use, coal is the dirtiest, containing the most contaminants and highest carbon content. The mining process is frequently destructive, ruining ecosystems and waterways. It provides much of our electricity for homes, manufacturing, and industrial use. The vast majority of the coal we burn was born in the Carboniferous period between 360 and 290 million years ago. Had you been alive then, the world would have been a much different place. There would be no mammals, no birds, and no reptiles – hot and humid marshes prevailed, dominated by enormous ferns and alien-like trees. The high oxygen content allowed gigantism, with insects ballooning to metres in length. As the trees and plants died, they fell into the anoxic swamps, slowly pressuring down to ever increasing depths. Over geologic time these plants became brown coal, bituminous coal, and eventually the cleanest burning anthracite.

Oil is much tougher to create – and what we have today exists through a precise and improbable process. Much of the oil we use today was created 160 million years ago in a period of extreme warmth, allowing the blooming of enormous amounts of phytoplankton in oceans and estuaries. Oil constitutes all that is our modern life, and transportation consumes a vast bulk of it.

Tim Flannery words it better than I can.

First the sediments containing phytoplankton must be buried and compressed by other rocks. Then, the absolute right conditions are needed to squeeze the organic matter out of the source rocks and to transfer it, through cracks and crevices, into a suitable storage stratum. This stratum must be porous, but above it must lie between a layer of fine-grained, impervious rock, strong enough to withstand the pressures that shot the oil and gas high into the air above Spindletop, and thick enough to forbid escape. In addition, the waxes and fats that are the source of oil need to be 'cooked' at between 100-135 degrees C for millions of years. If the temperature ever exceeds these limits, all that will result is gas, or else the hydrocarbons will be lost entirely.

In the process of becoming coal and oil, these living photo synthesizers sequestered carbon over hundreds of millions of years and buried them to the deepest depths. In 2002 alone, we released 21 000 000 000 000 kg of CO2 into the atmosphere. If our Earth were represented by an onion, the atmosphere would be the thinnest outer parchment. It’s thin and precious to life, although some would treat it as free sewage disposal. Most particulates we pump into the air eventually finds their way back into the oceans, soils, and water supplies.

So now we know how oil and coal came to being. We dig up the coal, pump out the oil, and capture the gas. The energy stored in the hydrogen bonds of the long dead plants are now stored in the hydrogen bonds of the hydrocarbon fuel. We oxidize this, utilizing its heat energy. There’s less oil and coal in the ground – that’s a given. But what about combustion products? Ignoring heavy metals, aerosols and water vapour, the carbon is released back into the atmosphere as CO2, and can be breathed in again by plants and plankton. Small amounts can be used for shell and skeletal matter of oceanic organisms. Small amounts can even offset the slow cooling occurring during the interglacial. But what if we release too much, too fast?

This is where the ocean steps in – the ocean is an incredible climatic regulator. It buffers out changes, absorbs the excess carbon and heat, but only to an extent. Continued addition of carbon acidifies and heats the ocean enough that the cryosphere begins to melt away, and the present interglacial-adapted organisms begin to suffer. Carbonate organisms are less able to develop shells. Of course, a select few can and will survive the hot acidic conditions, and will eventually rebound back to present day numbers, but only after the extermination of those ill suited and unable to cope with changing conditions. Water has an incredible heat capacity, and variations in current temperature, stratification, and direction changes global and regional climates. As long as sea ice exists, it will regulate the ocean and atmosphere to conditions of which we are equatorially adapted. Permafrost, snow, and land ice too plays a large role in regulation.

As the rapid addition of CO2, methane, nitrogen oxide and halocarbons build up in the atmosphere,they cover the earth in an invisible blanket. This blanket allows solar radiation to pass through freely and warm the Earth’s surface, but captures and traps the infrared heat reflecting back out into space. They function as a logarithmic thermostat that varies with incoming solar wattage – increased solar radiation causes more heat to be trapped. Dark aerosols and pollution have a paradoxical effect, decreasing the amount of radiation Earth’s surface receives, but still warming the lower atmosphere. Clouds too play a role in both warming and cooling. Surface color – white ice, blue ocean, green trees, tan desert, and brown dirt - affects reflection, and the total amount of infrared heat released to be trapped by GHGs. Earths wobble and orbital ellipsis has an incredible effect on temperature, and is a causative factor of ice ages. This makes calculations by the layman incredibly difficult to do, and to ignore GHGs in determining why climate change is occurring would be to omit an obvious, stark, and highly coincidental data set. To say that CO2 is a benign and pleasant gas - nothing more than plant food - is contrary to all modern scientific evidence.

Now let’s discuss evolution. Darwin’s work has long been available, and almost everyone agrees that we evolved from oceanic single-celled organisms perhaps 3.8 bya. Algal scum spread onto land about 1.2 bya, providing a feedstock for other organisms. Land plants appeared about 450 mya, with mammal-like reptiles appearing 285 mya. Stepping forward to today, here we are are in front of your computer screen. Improbable beyond belief as it is – we exist and are conscious of it. This implies a generous planetary positioning, suitable chemical composition and stratification, and buffer systems that maintain the conditions for living organisms within a suitable range. What would be the effect of changing those precise conditions, at a rapid pace? It is unlikely to be beneficial for large organisms, least of all for modern society.

But what about the atmosphere, biosphere, and geosphere? How have they evolved over time? While some may anthromorphize the Gaia theory – that the atmosphere, hydrosphere, cryosphere, and lithosphere works as an interacting organism to maintain conditions suitable for life - the Earth and atmosphere is strictly physical & chemical, and is no more alive than a virus or the fur on a cat’s back. But a virus propagates itself, as does the fur of a cat become the ecosystem to a host of microbes and mites. The vast majority of biomass on Earth is microscopic in nature. That is, the Earth's systems favour less complex organisms.

Earth’s early development involved gravitational separation of heavy and light elements, allowing the formation of the crust and mantle, a solid inner core and an outer liquid core. This allowed heat transfer and provides the magnetic field that protects the biosphere from cosmic radiation. Cooling of the core and the scorching hot 3000 degree C surface occurred, until finally around 4.2 bya a thin crust had formed, sufficiently cooled to below 100 degrees C. The hydrosphere could now develop. Early prokaryotic life came to being 3.7 bya and it is here that the biosphere begins its coexistence and evolution in tandem with the geosphere. The geosphere ultimately determines evolutionary direction, while the biosphere has become increasingly resilient and independent over time. Plate tectonics developed 2.5 bya and provided the deep oceans and continents required for further evolution. All the while, the Earth core continues to cool and volcanism becomes less intense.

The early oceans were necessary for protection against temperature spikes, cosmic rays and asteroids. The oceans also allowed the quick distribution of biogenes around world, and for the hydrosphere to directly weather rocks, providing necessary minerals for the formation of oceanic life. Early life didn’t need light, but used minerals weathered directly from the mantle for chemosynthesis. The arrival of photosynthetic organisms allowed the harnessing of an external energy source – sunlight.

The emergence of the supercontinent Pangea 2.5 bya allowed for a deep and uniform ocean, and changes in plate tectonics increased the oceanic potassium and sodium levels. The existence of membrane bound cells was now possible, and the development of the sodium/potassium pump allowed the quick evolution of the nervous system.

Early in Earth’s history, the atmosphere comprised mostly of volcanic emissions and craterous discharges. There was no oxygen. This is a good thing – had there been any in the air, precursor compounds for life would have quickly oxidized and we wouldn’t be here today. Ultraviolet radiation allowed the breakdown of water to create trace oxygen levels and ozone – the ultraviolet shield. Eventually, photosynthetic single celled organisms arrived and polluted the air with their emissions – oxygen - killing off much of the anaerobic organisms and themselves in the process. It is about 3 bya that organisms began playing a substantial role of atmospheric regulators – at least as far as maintaining life was concerned. Rock weathering and biotic respiration constitutes much of our present atmosphere. All life is built up of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and other trace elements. We are the products of volcanic emissions, weathered rocks, and water. Star dust as some might say. Less romantically, we originate from clay-silicate structures, the earliest of which was able to absorb ions, biogenes, minerals, and organic matter. This allowed the formation of pre-biological structures. Those structures most resistant to weathering, and most able to incorporate the necessary materials for life, thrived and survived. Survival of the fittest as we would call it.

When we terraform the land through deforestation, cities , and industry. reduce biodiversity by overfishing, pollution, and displacement, modify habitats intentionally and unintentionally, pollute indiscriminately, and oxidize the dead for energy, there are reactions - chemical consequences - for present life. It doesn't affect those organisms long dead, nor those organisms that will evolve in the future - just present life. Eventually, the Earth and life will recover – but when - and at what cost? And will we be a part of it and will society survive? Will the transition be easy? How will human physiology respond to changing conditions? Everything that exists has co-evolved with the modern atmosphere, or the reverse – the modern atmosphere has co-evolved with everything that has lived. The oceans, arctic ice, forests, plankton, and microbes all serve to regulate and stabilize the climate. The forests suck up enormous quantities of water, provide ecosystems, revitalize soil carbon, prevent erosion, regulate rainfall, and moderate weather. Phytoplankton, now reduced 40%, provide half the worlds oxygen and serve as the bottom rung of the oceanic ecosystem. The coral reefs, now dieing, are as diverse as the rainforests, and integral to survival of much of the oceans lifeforms. Once threshold buffers are passed, then cascading events affects all life on Earth.

The ocean acidification event of 55 mya is most analogous to todays situation. Magma incinerated a natural gas chamber triggering the release of vast quantities of CO2 and methane hydrates. Atmospheric CO2 raised from about about 1000ppm to perhaps 1700ppm or higher. The atmosphere warmed beyond the boundaries of the ocean to buffer, and temperatures raised 2-9 degrees C above the ambient ice-free Paleocene climate. CO2 warming is logarithmic, and percent rise is more important than ppm rise. The oceans acidified, killing most oceanic life. It’s unknown what happened on land, but it is during this event that mammals proliferated over Earth, indicating profound changes were occurring. Ultimately, while a select few may argue with the warming, the inaccuracy of models, or the relevance of historical records, the end result is that the event shows extreme climate sensitivity, while current models and scientists likely underestimate atmospheric sensitivity and tend to the conservative side so as not to be branded alarmist. Secondary is the human nature to be optimistic and assume the best.

Climate change occurs in neither linear non exponential a manner. Changes progress in leaps and jumps, with generous periods of apparent calm in-between. The time scale is measured in decades, and annual events matter little. The overall global trend may show warming, but it says little of regional climate. The oceans absorb the majority of our pollution and heat, and is still poorly understood as compared to the land and atmosphere. To ignore the ocean when measuring climate change is to ignore the elephant in the room.

The Earth, oceans, atmosphere, and microbial life provide a substantial buffer zone for technological progress. The green-reductionist approach of minimizing impact provides little room for human progress, and ignores boundaries already crossed, while a free resource exploitation, overpopulation, and pro-pollution attitude bulldozes over the buffers and reduces the ability for interglacial-adapted organisms to survive the geologically rapid changes. There exists a medium in which a technologically advanced society can exist without destroying the support systems that keep it alive. It is the collective actions of our species that dictates our destiny.

Cheers.

Some documentaries that I’ve found entertaining and informative.

National Geographic – How Six Degrees Could Change The World
National Geographic – Collapse – By Jared Diamond
David Attenborough - Are We Changing Planet Earth
Leonardo Dicaprio – The 11th Hour
Yann Arthus Bertrand – Home
Franny Armstrong – The Age of Stupid
The History Channel – Crude
Timothy Bennett – What a Way to Go – a bit depressing
A Crude Awakening / The End of Suburbia - the usual
Last edited by scas on Mon 27 Dec 2010, 16:20:26, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Peak Energy and Climate Change - The Logical Connections

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 26 Dec 2010, 17:00:03

Just a quick note for now.

In the third from last paragraph you say "Eventually, the Earth and life will recover fully "

Is this really something we can know for certain?

It is often repeated, but is sounds more like a statement of faith than something we can know.
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Re: Peak Energy and Climate Change - The Logical Connections

Unread postby scas » Sun 26 Dec 2010, 17:38:08

You are correct - life may not recover fully - but some extent of life will recover. Mammals and large animals may go the way of the dodo, and what exists may be insects, grasses, and microbes. Birds will migrate north - even now the grasses at the poles grow and small migrating birds should be able to eke out a living. The oceans too are the safe house for life - they recovered after the PETM, and will again.

Considering the vast biomass of Earth is microbial and living in the oceans and underground, it would be impossible to kill them all. I am not confident that humanity will survive, but I prefer to hope so, and think it plausible, especially with newer technologies. Fusion, cloning, nanotech - anythings possible. The future is as yet undefined and I prefer to live with some degree of hope. How we handle the catastrophe, and whether we choose to annihilate each other in a polar land grab will make all the difference. There's also the questions of human physiological response that I don't know enough about.

In that sense, i'm with Steven Hawking. Eventually, we need to colonize space.
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Re: Peak Energy and Climate Change - The Logical Connections

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Sun 26 Dec 2010, 18:49:07

Its conceivable that we could extinct all other competing animals from the biosphere, then take over all the nitches they used to inhabit.

Why over millions of years, modern humans could be the ancestors of a whole range of human decended creatures; from armadillo like things that live eating bugs from under rocks and such. To small mole like animals living out of cave ecosystems eating cockroaches and worms.

We have to get past the idea that humans are the same past, present and future, and evolution does not occur type of mindset. After all our competitors are gone and industrial society is no longer possible, I can see humans evolving and changing to fill all the newly vacated roles.

Some may return to the seas in a similar process to the whales and dolphins converting from land mammals back to sea dwelling creatures. We could go back to the trees; with all kinds of weird looking offshoots sporting a whole new genus of ape species.

And, of course, a small minority may retain intellgence and subsist by sustainable farming. A good film to watch would be 1997 version of 'The time machine'. Where humans selectively bred themselves into casts, some to be eyes and ears, some to work as muscles and tendons, with only a few choosing to focus on mental advancement; and they all lived underground feeding apon the 'unevolved' humans on the surface.

Such may be our collective fate.
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Re: Peak Energy and Climate Change - The Logical Connections

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 02:20:49

Its conceivable that we could extinct all other competing animals from the biosphere, then take over all the nitches they used to inhabit.


It's conceivable? We're pretty darn close right now. We use nearly half of all the suns energy that is captured by photosynthesis now. We are in the process of destroying much of the rest of life on earth.

Yes, microbes and a few other hardy critters are likely to survive the worst we can throw at them for now.

But keep in mind, that even before the effects of AGW started kicking in, we were in the midst of a mass extinction event from over fishing, ecosystem destruction, introduction of invasives, introduction of toxic chemicals, and other destructive behaviors (lets not forget nuclear waste--the 'gift' that keeps on giving).

GW is now heating and acidifying the oceans, moving climate zones not only poleward but up mountains (no where left to migrate once you've reached the top), drying out soils, inundating others with floods, depriving polar bears of ice to hunt from...

These insults and assaults on the living world amount to at least two dinosaur-extinguishing asteroids, and we aren't done yet.

Previous extinctions required millions to tens of millions of years for life to recover to something like its pre-extincion complexity and variety. Our double (at least) wammy may well increase this recovery period by an order of magnitude, putting us into the neighborhood when the earth will become uninhabitable because the sun will get too hot.
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Re: Peak Energy and Climate Change - The Logical Connections

Unread postby mos6507 » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 09:02:15

scas wrote:In that sense, i'm with Steven Hawking. Eventually, we need to colonize space.


The technology required to colonize space would work better to keep a remnant of humans alive in shit-hole earth (think Zion in The Matrix). That's not my idea of a happy ending, though. I'd rather we check out than face that indignity.
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Re: Peak Energy and Climate Change - The Logical Connections

Unread postby mos6507 » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 09:06:34

My favorite documentary that shows how peak oil and climate change are two sides of the same coin is The Incredible Journey of Crude. I like it because it takes a scholarly PBS NOVA-style approach to the issue, complete with Jurassic Park style CGI. People need to really work-it to develop their sense of deep-time.

Of course, all the data in the world won't change the minds of those who are blinded by ideology.
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Re: Peak Energy and Climate Change - The Logical Connections

Unread postby dolanbaker » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 11:13:14

I see AGW/climate change and peak energy (from fossil fuel) as two separate entities.

Climate change is mainly natural, the fossil records and Ice cores provide plenty of evidence that proves that there have been many rapid changes in the past.

Peak energy on the other hand is entirely manmade as it involves the removal and consumption of finite resources that are irreplaceble, in human times anyway.

Both scenarios are independant of each other, unless you believe in AGW.

The rise in CO2 levels is as much to do with the destruction of carbon sinks as it is to do with burning fossil fuel, by carbon sinks i mean deforestation, desertification & large scale agriculture.
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
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Re: Peak Energy and Climate Change - The Logical Connections

Unread postby Lore » Mon 27 Dec 2010, 11:22:49

dolanbaker wrote:I see AGW/climate change and peak energy (from fossil fuel) as two separate entities.

Climate change is mainly natural, the fossil records and Ice cores provide plenty of evidence that proves that there have been many rapid changes in the past.


Yes, and we are the reason for the rapid change today. The past just tells us how sensitive the climate is to influences.

dolanbaker wrote:Both scenarios are independant of each other, unless you believe in AGW.


Not really, two sides of the same coin. One drives the other.

dolanbaker wrote:The rise in CO2 levels is as much to do with the destruction of carbon sinks as it is to do with burning fossil fuel, by carbon sinks i mean deforestation, desertification & large scale agriculture.


Which is what's happening with our largest carbon sink, the oceans. Acidification and reaching a saturation point of more CO2 then it can manage from the increased emissions of carbon through the burning of fossil fuels.
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Burning America's future

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 00:29:40

Burning America's future

Thomas Donohue was speaking. Not just speaking; the head of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce was giving his annual "state of American business" address, in the 100th year of the chamber's operation, from the chamber's Hall of Flags in its office just across Lafayette Park from the White House. He began with the usual boilerplate, attacking "regulations, mandates and higher taxes." But then he turned to energy and what he called a "game-changer" for the nation and "the next big thing." Not solar power, not wind power. He was talking about coal, and gas, and oil.

In fact, he was very specific. "We have 1.4 trillion barrels of oil, enough to last at least 200 years. We have 2.7 quadrillion cubic feet of natural gas, enough to last 120 years. We have 486 billion tons of coal, enough to last more than 450 years — and we need to use more of this strategic resource cleanly and wisely here at home while selling it around the world."


I checked out the numbers with James Hansen and Pushker Kharecha of NASA's Goddard Institute of Space Studies that afternoon. Using tables from the government's Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center, they calculated that burning those quantities of coal, gas and oil would raise the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide from its current 392 parts per million to almost 650 ppm.

We've already got way too much CO2 in the atmosphere; the same day as Donohue's speech, analysts reported that 2011 had seen the most extreme weather in the history of U.S. record-keeping. For Donohue to recommend blithely increasing it by more than 50% is — well, it's insane. Every nation on Earth has been conducting negotiations in an attempt to keep CO2 concentrations below 450 ppm; much research indicates we actually need to get back below 350 ppm to stabilize global climate. Climbing to 650 ppm is the stuff of science fiction. It would create a planet wildly different from the one on which human civilization grew up.

And of course Donohue was talking only about American hydrocarbons. Though of course he also threw in a plug for the Keystone pipeline to Canada's tar sands; if you add in all the oil in Alberta, that would mean an additional 150 ppm to the atmosphere. And then there's, oh, Saudi Arabia and Russia and Kuwait and Venezuela and Norway and China and South Africa and Indonesia and Brazil and …


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Re: Burning America's future

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 05:12:32

Despite the Great Recession we are adding almost 3 ppm to the CO2 level in the atmosphere every year, if we ever return to a growth at all costs economy that number will exceed 3. Anyone who has taken a basic science course and paid the least bit of attention knows that increasing a GHG will eventually increase surface temperatures. It really isn't hard to understand, and yet so many people close their eyes too the realities of the science and try to wish away the problem. God gave you a brain so you could understand the consequences of your actions. BAU believers should try using it.
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Re: Burning America's future

Unread postby cephalotus » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 08:11:19

It's very likely that the climate problem is much bigger than the resource problem. We may burn the natural gas, but then we have to leave oil and coal where they are without burning them.
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Re: Burning America's future

Unread postby MD » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 08:31:34

The whole thing is coming to a head. Our hydrocarbon resource is becoming increasingly poisoned with entrails that have no economic potential. At the same time we're tipping atmosphere and crust in dangerous and unpredictable ways.

Fossil fuels are done. Get over it. I don't give a shit if it's five years or a hundred. We need to move on.

Why does change always have to be so excruciatingly difficult? :cry:
Stop filling dumpsters, as much as you possibly can, and everything will get better.

Just think it through.
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Re: Burning America's future

Unread postby Crazy_Dad » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 08:16:54

MD wrote:Why does change always have to be so excruciatingly difficult? :cry:


Mainly because of the incumbant power holders do not want to release control over the masses who provide their power base.

The same reason why Greek bond holder's don't want to take a haircut. Money speaks, until money isn't worth anything. And the people with money will not part with it without a fight. Even if the fight is self defeating.
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Re: Burning America's future

Unread postby Pretorian » Thu 19 Jan 2012, 09:50:31

MD wrote:Fossil fuels are done. Get over it. I don't give a shit if it's five years or a hundred. We need to move on.

Why does change always have to be so excruciatingly difficult? :cry:


Probably because here is where you are going to move


Image



and it will be a bit hard to do since these guys and many others were all killed off last time we were doing this green thing.

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Re: Burning America's future

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 21 Jan 2012, 17:46:43

Tanada wrote:Despite the Great Recession we are adding almost 3 ppm to the CO2 level in the atmosphere every year, if we ever return to a growth at all costs economy that number will exceed 3.....
Yep, we'll be at the 400 ppm benchmark in about 5 years, and that's still the benchmark for calculations of how much the earth will heat up. Clearly we'll be at 450 before we even put a dent in GHG emissions. When they recalculate the predictions at 450 or 500 ppm of CO2, it's going to look very grim.
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