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Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 9

Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby dissident » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 11:56:31

Subjectivist wrote:I think there has been some adaptation, just not nearly enough. We should be federally buying up all property in southern Louisiana and specifically New Orleans and removing all permanent structures. The swamp is disapearing into the sea, fighting this losing battle with sea level rise is expensive and pointless. There is a reason private insurers have or are pulling coverage.


What is missing is serious adaptation in transport and housing. Vanilla internal combustion engines should have been history by now. Every car should be a hybrid that stores energy during breaking and uses an electrical motor to drive the wheels. Public transit should not be something were it is better to take the car. Municipalities should restrict urban sprawl and increase density. Europe is a good model. Solar energy heating and house design should be such that heating by fossil fuels (even if it is via the electrical grid) should be minimized. As of now such changes are token and it is BAU. Looks like it will be BAU until we fall over the cliff edge.
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Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 9

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 12:24:20

"[Mostly Socialist] Europe is a good model."

Fixed that for ya! :-D :-D :-D
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 12:25:58

Dissident and Pstarr
with reference to the Zhu et al, 20166. Greening of the Earth and its drivers paper it is worth reading the whole thing to understand what they did. My read is that it addresses the issues Dissident points out.
Long-term changes in vegetation greenness are driven by multiple interacting biogeochemical drivers and land-use effects9. Biogeochemical drivers include the fertilization effects of elevated atmospheric CO2 concentration (eCO2), regional climate change (temperature, precipitation and radiation), and varying rates of nitrogen deposition. Land-use-related drivers involve changes in land cover and in land management intensity, including fertilization, irrigation, forestry and grazing. None of these driving factors can be considered in isolation, given their strong interactions with one another. Previously, a few studies had investigated the drivers of global greenness trends, with a limited number of models and satellite observations, which prevented an appropriate quantification of uncertainties.
Here, we investigate trends of leaf area index (LAI) and their drivers for the period 1982 to 2009 using three remotely sensed data sets (GIMMS3g, GLASS and GLOMAP) and outputs from ten ecosystem models run at global extent (see Supplementary Information). We use the growing season integrated leaf area index (hereafter, LAI; Methods) as the variable of our study. We first analyse global and regional LAI trends for the study period and differences between the three data sets. Using modelling results, we then quantify the contributions of CO2 fertilization, climatic factors, nitrogen deposition and LCC to the observed trends.


Trends from the three long-term satellite LAI data sets consistently show positive values over a large proportion of the global vegetated area since 1982
The regions with the largest greening trends, consistent across the three data sets, are in southeast North America, the northern Amazon, Europe, Central Africa and Southeast Asia.
The GLASS LAI data shows the most extensive statistically significant greening (Mann–Kendall test, p < 0.05 ) over 50% of vegetated lands, followed by GLOBMAP LAI (43%) and GIMMS LAI3g (25%). All three LAI data sets also consistently show a decreasing LAI trend (browning) over less than 4% of global vegetated land—these are observed in northwest North America and central South America.


and they also "sense check" the observations against 10 global ecosystem models

We compare satellite-based LAI anomalies with LAI anomalies simulated by ten global ecosystem models driven by eCO2 (+46ppm over the study period), climate, nitrogen deposition and LCC (Supplementary Section 7). Multi-Model Ensemble Mean (MMEM) LAI anomalies, with all these drivers considered, generally agree with averaged satellite observations at the global scale (r = 0.85, p < 0.01; Fig. 2a). The trend in MMEM LAI anomalies (0.062 m2 m−2 yr−1 ) is within the range of estimates from the three satellite data sets.


and they try to derive the contribution of CO2 to the results from the models
We used an optimal fingerprint detection method13 to assess the ability of the models to simulate response patterns of LAI to eCO2 , climate change, nitrogen deposition and LCC.

Globally, the model factorial simulations suggest that CO2 fertilization explains the largest contribution to the satellite-observed LAI trend (70.1 ± 29.4%, 0.048 ± 0.020 m2 m−2 yr−1 ), followed by nitrogen deposition (8.8 ± 11.8%, 0.006 ± 0.008 m2 m−2 yr−1 ), climate change (8.1 ± 20.6%, 0.006 ± 0.014 m2 m−2 yr−1 ) and LCC (3.7 ± 14.7%, 0.003 ± 0.010m2 m−2 yr−1)


so to sum:

-the study uses 3 recent remote sensing datasets and the trends in all 3 agree with one another over all areas
-they incorporate land cover change into their analysis (LCC) along with greening and browning analysis (LAI)
-they test their results against a climate model that shows general agreement with observations
-the rationale as to what contribution CO2 plays in the observed greening comes from analysis of the models
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 13:07:03

Ahh, baby roc...the linkless wonder!

I'll let others destroy this latest sophistry. I can't be bothered with this twit any more.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 13:41:01

Ahh, baby roc...the linkless wonder!


I was referencing the actual paper that pstarr was pointing to on greening of the earth that was recently published by a group at NASA. both pstarr and dissident are aware of what paper that is so I did not see a need to reference it once again. I was supplying quotes from within the actual paper which I believe address the concerns dissident had. Maybe not. That is up for him to respond to as I suspect he will take the time to read the paper.

For the memory impaired
Zhu, Z., 2016. Greening of the Earth and its drivers. Nature Climate Change., DOI: 10.1038/NCLIMATE3004

As usual you step in to blather about something you know absolutely nothing about and have zero background to discuss....good idea to leave that discussion to those who have actually read something. :roll:
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 13:44:57

Yes rock, thanks for the discussion. It is a great study. It should change (along with previous studies on CO2 fertilization) the entire discussion. But it won't. Too many ideologues on either side of this fence.

dohboi wrote:Ahh, baby roc...the linkless wonder!

I'll let others destroy this latest sophistry. I can't be bothered with this twit any more.

dohboi is trapped in his own agenda. He was hoping to make converts here at peakoil.com to join him and his army of liberal activists in the overthrow of the reigning paradigm. Now he realizes he is equally part of the problem. And has offered no solution.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 13:55:54

"...trapped in his own agenda..."

Projection, much?? :lol: :lol: :lol:

And baby roc, thanks for reminding us that the study you were referencing was for the period 1982–2009, now essentially ancient history. CO2 is no longer having a greening effect overall.

Since once again you refused to bother posting a link, I kindly provide one here: http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/ ... e3004.html

Relevant line: " Here we use three long-term satellite leaf area index (LAI) records and ten global ecosystem models to investigate four key drivers of LAI trends during 1982–2009."

And it is rather rich for someone who was absolutely certain that warm water could not persist below cold water in polar oceans (even though that is exactly what happens) to claim that anyone else doesn't know what they're talking about. Rich indeed.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 14:25:34

And baby roc, thanks for reminding us that the study you were referencing was for the period 1982–2009, now essentially ancient history. CO2 is no longer having a greening effect overall.


Oh really? That NASA paper referenced was published in April of this year. What do you have to show us that is more recent? What are you basing this claim on other than your imagination?

Note that the paper referenced refers to the trend for all 3 data sets and the only one which there is most recent qualified data is GIMM LAI3g. The following graph

Image

That graph demonstrates that GIMM LAI3g along with the two other datasets and the model have good agreement in the period of 1982-2009 (the length of the two other data sets and hence the model runs) and that the continuation of GIMM LAI3g to 2014 shows a continual increase in LAI to end 2014.
So you give no support for your claim greening has stopped whereas this graph on its own suggests it has not

I am not sure why you even bother to post on science related topics. You never bother to read any actual publications in order to discuss them, presumably because anything technical sets your mind spinning away in confusion.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 14:39:20

You can find this shit yourself. I'm giving two related article (with links, mind you), then I have to move on to other things and let others pick up the pieces. Best luck with your delusions.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... .2762/full

...decline in the Northern Hemisphere's uptake of carbon dioxide in biomass

Trees and plants reached 'peak carbon' 10 years ago

https://cosmosmagazine.com/climate/tree ... -years-ago

And in any case, whatever extra uptake of atmospheric CO2 plants may or may have been responsible for, it hasn't kept actual CO2 levels from continuing their dizzying increase, and the earths soils, especially in the far north, are about to start dumping massive amounts of CO2 and methane into the atmosphere:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v5 ... 20150.html

https://www.adn.com/arctic/2016/12/01/l ... tmosphere/
Last edited by dohboi on Sat 17 Dec 2016, 14:59:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 14:47:56

dohboi wrote:You can find this shit yourself. I'm giving two related article (with links, mind you), then I have to move on to other things and let others pick up the pieces. Best luck with your delusions.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... .2762/full

...decline in the Northern Hemisphere's uptake of carbon dioxide in biomass

Trees and plants reached 'peak carbon' 10 years ago

https://cosmosmagazine.com/climate/tree ... -years-ago

From the Curran study: "New measurements of atmospheric carbon dioxide reveal that plants have reached saturation point, and that since 2006 the amount of carbon dioxide absorbed by plants has been declining. “It’s the first evidence that we are tipping over the edge, potentially towards runaway or irreversible climate change,” says James Curran, former chief executive of the Scottish Environment Protection Agency."

The study refers to the North Hemisphere and the results have been refuted. The bulk of the greening affect is in the dry tropics, most noticeably in the African continent in the Southern Hemisphere.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 14:59:56

Soooo, basically your argument is "my study is better than yours"

Okey dokey.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 15:09:36

dohboi wrote:Soooo, basically your argument is "my study is better than yours"

Okey dokey.
Let's try this: the Curran data is older than the new data and only refers to a minor component of the entire planetary data set. Okey dokey
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 15:33:33

you can find this shit yourself. I'm giving two related article (with links, mind you), then I have to move on to other things and let others pick up the pieces. Best luck with your delusions.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... .2762/full

I guess it might help if (as usual) you actually read anything you posted about.

The paper
Curran J and Curran S, 2016. An estimate of the climate change significance of the decline in the Northern Hemisphere’s uptake of carbon dioxide in biomass. Weather. DOI: 10.1002/wea.2762

is not a response to papers that actually measure the greening of the global by remote sensing. All it does is look at CO2 output as measured at Mauna Loa and suggests that because there is an inter-annual drop in measured atmospheric CO2 it must be due to biomass not taking up CO2. There is no evidence or direct measures of biomass CO2 consumption and certainly no measure of global greening. In essence you have provided a red herring argument. Again it would help if you learned to read something before you posted on it.

Trees and plants reached 'peak carbon' 10 years ago

https://cosmosmagazine.com/climate/tree ... -years-ago


And that link is nothing more than a press release referring to the above paper that shows no direct evidence for what proportion of CO2 is being ingested by plant life. As said above this is completely a red herring when it comes to looking at remote sensing analysis of global greening. Perhaps you don't understand what was being argued in the first place?

And in any case, whatever extra uptake of atmospheric CO2 plants may or may have been responsible for, it hasn't kept actual CO2 levels from continuing their dizzying increase, and the earths soils, especially in the far north, are about to start dumping massive amounts of CO2 and methane into the atmosphere:


And now changing the argument to something entirely different. Who do you actually think you are kidding here?
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 17 Dec 2016, 15:44:41

rockdoc123 wrote:
you can find this shit yourself. I'm giving two related article (with links, mind you), then I have to move on to other things and let others pick up the pieces. Best luck with your delusions.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... .2762/full

I guess it might help if (as usual) you actually read anything you posted about.

The paper
Curran J and Curran S, 2016. An estimate of the climate change significance of the decline in the Northern Hemisphere’s uptake of carbon dioxide in biomass. Weather. DOI: 10.1002/wea.2762

is not a response to papers that actually measure the greening of the global by remote sensing. All it does is look at CO2 output as measured at Mauna Loa and suggests that because there is an inter-annual drop in measured atmospheric CO2 it must be due to biomass not taking up CO2. There is no evidence or direct measures of biomass CO2 consumption and certainly no measure of global greening. In essence you have provided a red herring argument. Again it would help if you learned to read something before you posted on it.

Trees and plants reached 'peak carbon' 10 years ago

https://cosmosmagazine.com/climate/tree ... -years-ago


And that link is nothing more than a press release referring to the above paper that shows no direct evidence for what proportion of CO2 is being ingested by plant life. As said above this is completely a red herring when it comes to looking at remote sensing analysis of global greening. Perhaps you don't understand what was being argued in the first place?

And in any case, whatever extra uptake of atmospheric CO2 plants may or may have been responsible for, it hasn't kept actual CO2 levels from continuing their dizzying increase, and the earths soils, especially in the far north, are about to start dumping massive amounts of CO2 and methane into the atmosphere:


And now changing the argument to something entirely different. Who do you actually think you are kidding here?

he's not kidding me either. rock, thanks for bothering to read the paper. Unfortunately dohboi won't, or can't. It is science after all.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 15:31:19

Two weeks after officials in two dozen states asked Republican President-elect Donald Trump to kill one of Democratic President Barack Obama's signature plans to curb global warming, another group of state officials is urging Trump to save it.

Democratic attorneys general in 15 states plus four cities and counties sent a letter to Trump asking him to preserve Obama's Clean Power Plan, New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, the lead author, announced Thursday.

The letter was a rebuttal to one sent this month by Republican officials from West Virginia and 21 other states and Democrats from the coal-producing states of Kentucky and Missouri urging Trump to issue a Day 1 executive order declaring the Clean Power Plan unlawful and prohibiting the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency from enforcing it.

The Clean Power Plan aims to reduce carbon dioxide emissions at existing power plants, the nation's largest source of the pollution, by about one-third by 2030. Opponents say the Environmental Protection Agency lacks authority to implement the rules. The plan is already the subject of a legal fight.

Trump has called the science showing climate change a hoax. His choice to head the EPA, Oklahoma Attorney General Scott Pruitt, has sued the EPA repeatedly to stop its climate agenda including Obama's sweeping power plant rules. And his nominee to run the Department of Energy, former Texas Gov. Rick Perry, has questioned climate science while working to promote coal-fired power in Texas. But in a television interview this month Trump said he was "still open-minded" about the science of climate change.

Schneiderman said states like New York are "on the front lines of climate change" and have demonstrated how to cut pollution and emissions while protecting affordable and reliable electricity, creating jobs and growing the economy.

"The Clean Power Plan builds on that successful work and is a blueprint for the critical action needed to fight climate change's devastating environmental, economic and public health impacts," he said.

Under Democratic Gov. Andrew Cuomo's Clean Energy Standard, established this year, 50 percent of New York state's electricity must come from renewable energy sources like wind and solar by 2030. New York and eight other states are part of the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative, a cap-and-trade program that has reduced carbon dioxide emissions from electrical generation in the region by 40 percent from 2005 levels.

In California, the nation's most populous state, which also signed the letter, the goal is also to have half of its energy from renewable sources by 2030 and a 40 percent reduction of greenhouse gases.

The letter to Trump lists local impacts of climate change from fossil fuel emissions, including drought in California, catastrophic storm surge in New York City, a record deluge on Colorado's Front Range, high-tide flooding in Virginia and South Florida and diminished shellfish harvest in Oregon and Washington state.

The legal challenge, filed by 27 states that oppose the Clean Power Plan, is before a federal appeals court in Washington, D.C. A decision on the plan could come at any time, but the U.S. Supreme Court has temporarily blocked implementation of the rule until the court challenge is resolved.

Still, even if Trump wants to scrap the plan, it would be a large, time-consuming task.

David Doniger, a climate policy expert with the Natural Resources Defense Council who served on Democratic President Bill Clinton's White House Council of Environmental Quality, said the Trump administration "can't make it go away unless they go through a rule-making process and unwind it."

"And that's a public process, so they'll have to hear from supporters of the plan," he said.

If Trump were to issue the executive order being asked for by the plan's opponents, since the plan has gone through a formal process to become a regulation it would still require a long, public process to undo, Doniger said.

Besides New York and California, the letter is signed by attorneys general from the District of Columbia, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Mexico, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Virginia and Washington, as well as officials from Broward County and South Miami, Florida, Boulder, Colorado and New York City.


http://www.brooklyneagle.com/articles/2 ... ads-states ’-urges-trump-over-obama-global-warming-plan
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 03 Jan 2017, 22:29:19

If the Democratically controlled blue states want to follow the clean power plan what is there to stop them from following that course independently if the Federal government removes the mandate at their level?
They would only have their voters to answer to.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 05:58:04

vtsnowedin wrote:If the Democratically controlled blue states want to follow the clean power plan what is there to stop them from following that course independently if the Federal government removes the mandate at their level?
They would only have their voters to answer to.


Authoritarians many of whom seem to have power in Blue states want to be able to say it is a federal mandate so that the voter repercussions are diverted away from them and focused on other persons. Kind of wanting to have their cake (control of the mass behavior) while eating it (those people did it I am a victim too). That is the problem with the eternal blame game, if you never take responsibility then ultimately you accomplish very little of lasting impact.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 06:11:11

Tanada wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:If the Democratically controlled blue states want to follow the clean power plan what is there to stop them from following that course independently if the Federal government removes the mandate at their level?
They would only have their voters to answer to.


Authoritarians many of whom seem to have power in Blue states want to be able to say it is a federal mandate so that the voter repercussions are diverted away from them and focused on other persons. Kind of wanting to have their cake (control of the mass behavior) while eating it (those people did it I am a victim too). That is the problem with the eternal blame game, if you never take responsibility then ultimately you accomplish very little of lasting impact.

Exactly. But if it is such a good idea then it is a good idea even if the Feds are not behind it. If the Dems want to demonstrate real leadership they should move ahead based on the facts to show they are worthy of regaining control of the government.
The Democrats have no bench and their leadership are fossils looking for a wheel chair.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 8

Unread postby Cog » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 06:59:32

There is also another factor. If it is a federal mandate, the full weight of the federal government and all its departments, like the EPA, DOT, and DOJ can be brought to bear on those states or individual companies who do not wish to comply. If it is a state mandate, a company can simply choose to move its operations to another state that doesn't have that mandate.

Not surprisingly, federal mandates are the preferred option from those on the left, who never object to federal over-reach or excessive taxation.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 9

Unread postby dissident » Tue 14 Mar 2017, 17:22:33

https://youtu.be/A_RxpB3wtvU

Nice rebuttal of the new EPA head clown.

The problem with denier Pruitt is that denial does not reap the benefits that he thinks it does. Nobody is going to shut down Exxon and they can pass any carbon tax costs down to the sucker consumers. But those sucker consumers are going to have to pay for flooding of low lying coastal regions of the USA to the tune of hundreds of billions of current dollars.
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