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Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 9

Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 25 Oct 2016, 23:24:55

"extreme water is good for plants"

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

More crops are lost to flooding than to drought.

"Most crops grown in North America are intolerant of flooding. Flooding depletes soils of oxygen and increases disease infections and nitrogen losses."

https://www.pioneer.com/home/site/us/ag ... od-impact/

(I love how the denialists just wallow in fact free fantasy here. Then roc comes along with is usual gishgallop of mostly unlinked quotes. Nice how the title for the first can't even manage to get basic English words spelled right! :lol: :lol: "Greeness in semi-arid areas across the glove" :lol: :lol: :lol: )
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 25 Oct 2016, 23:51:49

doh, of course climate affects agriculture, it always has. But of course you have no evidence climate change has reduced aggregate US crop production. We keep growing stuff and folks keep eating.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 00:10:03

Be patient, my child! :)

Also, the US the world.
Last edited by dohboi on Wed 26 Oct 2016, 00:26:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 00:14:09


• Higher CO2 levels can affect crop yields. Some laboratory experiments suggest that elevated CO2 levels can increase plant growth. However, other factors, such as changing temperatures, ozone, and water and nutrient constraints, may counteract these potential increases in yield. For example, if temperature exceeds a crop's optimal level, if sufficient water and nutrients are not available, yield increases may be reduced or reversed. Elevated CO2 has been associated with reduced protein and nitrogen content in alfalfa and soybean plants, resulting in a loss of quality. Reduced grain and forage quality can reduce the ability of pasture and rangeland to support grazing livestock.[1]

• More extreme temperature and precipitation can prevent crops from growing. Extreme events, especially floods and droughts, can harm crops and reduce yields. For example, in 2010 and 2012, high nighttime temperatures affected corn yields across the U.S. Corn Belt, and premature budding due to a warm winter caused $220 million in losses of Michigan cherries in 2012.[1]

•Dealing with drought could become a challenge in areas where rising summer temperatures cause soils to become drier. Although increased irrigation might be possible in some places, in other places water supplies may also be reduced, leaving less water available for irrigation when more is needed.

• Many weeds, pests, and fungi thrive under warmer temperatures, wetter climates, and increased CO2 levels. Currently, U.S. farmers spend more than $11 billion per year to fight weeds, which compete with crops for light, water, and nutrients.[1] The ranges and distribution of weeds and pests are likely to increase with climate change. This could cause new problems for farmers' crops previously unexposed to these species.

• Though rising CO2 can stimulate plant growth, it also reduces the nutritional value of most food crops. Rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide reduce the concentrations of protein and essential minerals in most plant species, including wheat, soybeans, and rice. This direct effect of rising CO2 on the nutritional value of crops represents a potential threat to human health. Human health is also threatened by increased pesticide use due to increased pest pressures and reductions in the efficacy of pesticides


https://www.epa.gov/climate-impacts/cli ... ood-supply
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 00:28:17

due to climate change, "southern Africa could lose more than 30% of its main crop, maize, by 2030. In South Asia losses of many regional staples, such as rice, millet and maize could top 10%"

Lobell DB, Burke MB, Tebaldi C, Mastrandrea MD, Falcon WP, Naylor RL (2008). "Prioritizing climate change adaptation needs for food security in 2030". Science. 319 (5863): 607–10. doi:10.1126/science.1152339. PMID 18239122. http://science.sciencemag.org/content/319/5863/607

Note that most early (pre-2007) studies on the subject had various fatal flaws and oversights:

Most of the studies on global agriculture assessed by Schneider et al. (2007) had not incorporated a number of critical factors, including changes in extreme events, or the spread of pests and diseases.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_c ... griculture
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby ralfy » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 04:58:24

The point that "doom" is predicted is obvious because we are underestimating the problem. That's why global warming was not noted for decades.

Any problems in the models are due to the point that we are underestimating the problem. Note, for example, ocean heat content.

It's for that reason that climate sensitivity may actually be higher. That's why positive feedbacks were noted only later.

If any, the "establishment" has a vested interested in the opposite of alarm. That's because more funding become available given opportunities for further study.

Finally, in order to understand the effects of global warming, one must consider the point that the future does not involve one problem or the other but multiple problems amplifying each other. Take note of the ff. article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... g-collapse

Is there any substantial evidence that the resource curve has gone up or will do so soon, that the three types of economic output will continue to rise even as resource availability drops such that the population will reach a peak as both birth and death rates drop, and then decrease slowly, and that global warming coupled with environmental damage will not affect such a scenario?
http://sites.google.com/site/peakoilreports/
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 10:25:41

dohboi wrote:due to climate change, "southern Africa could lose more than 30% of its main crop, maize, by 2030. In South Asia losses of many regional staples, such as rice, millet and maize could top 10%"

Lobell DB, Burke MB, Tebaldi C, Mastrandrea MD, Falcon WP, Naylor RL (2008). "Prioritizing climate change adaptation needs for food security in 2030". Science. 319 (5863): 607–10. doi:10.1126/science.1152339. PMID 18239122. http://science.sciencemag.org/content/319/5863/607

Note that most early (pre-2007) studies on the subject had various fatal flaws and oversights:

Most of the studies on global agriculture assessed by Schneider et al. (2007) had not incorporated a number of critical factors, including changes in extreme events, or the spread of pests and diseases.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_c ... griculture


If there were no tropical crops which can substitute for those grain calories these stories would be a lot more troubling. The thing is true tropical countries like Indonesia have been growing tropical food crops like Cassava and Yam for most of their existance. Burma having to switch from growing rice to growing Yams is not a crisis, it is an inconvenience.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 10:43:23

(I love how the denialists just wallow in fact free fantasy here. Then roc comes along with is usual gishgallop of mostly unlinked quotes. Nice how the title for the first can't even manage to get basic English words spelled right!


It is not surprising to me that Dohboi when confronted with factual information from publications reverts to distraction. Once again his low IQ seems to preclude him from pasting the DOI into a search engine. Note also that I am quoting the entire Abstract from these papers. Perhaps instead of trying to obfuscate you might actually try to refute what the papers are saying?

Posting "proposed trends in the future" or "projections" based on preconceived notions that are either not backed up by empirical observations or are actually at odds with said observations is not a good argument unless you have some strange idea that everyone else on this thread is not paying attention or are somehow looking for affirmation science no matter how far off the actual term "science" that might be.

The bottom line is regardless of what the EPA says "should or could happen" or what Lobell et al say "should or could happen" there is an incredible amount of research in the literature over the past decade that point to observations of a greening earth and considerable empirical and experimental evidence that points to the over riding control on that greening by increased CO2 and it's relevant interactions with other nutrients.

By the way Dohboi for anything I've said to qualify under the term "gish gallop" you need to demonstrate how it is somehow bullshit. Considering it is all published information that would require you to refute the work of numerous scientists who have already been subjected to peer review. Good luck with that one. :roll:
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 10:48:49

"The Gish Gallop (also known as proof by verbosity) is the fallacious debating tactic of simply drowning your opponent in a torrent of small, interlocking arguments intended to prevent your opponent from being able to rebut your conclusions in real time."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 11:27:34

well there are a host of definitions:
The Gish Gallop, named after creationist Duane Gish, is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments that the opponent cannot possibly answer every falsehood in real time.


And even using your definition "small interlocking arguments" hardly speaks to the fact each of the papers points to observations of a greening earth and the connection to CO2. The only reason you can't "rebut your conclusions in real time" is your suggestion that it was all debunked was a complete load of bollicks and based on your poor understanding of the available published literature. :roll:
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 15:08:25

I remember earlier days on this website when links to articles would be argued against with links to opposing artcles, not appeals to emotion and childish insults.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby dissident » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 18:36:58

It is the deniers who are childish and deserve no respect. They repeat the exact same sh*t claims day in and day out. No amount of refutation will matter because they systematically ignore it and continue to spout the same old tired lies ad nauseam.

To claim that they need to be argued against in some civilized manner when they personally take a dump on such discourse is simply absurd. It is like demanding autistics to be treated like Einsteins. Some of these autistics need a straight jacket and a padded room instead of deference and coddling.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby jedrider » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 19:00:57

We can also call this the 'wishful thinking' thread along with fusion power.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby litesong » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 19:41:03

pstarr wrote: you have no evidence climate change has reduced aggregate US crop production.


AGW deniers keep hiding behind scientific increase in crop growth, that could off-set adverse climate changes for decades. As for poor countries unable to implement science improvements to crops..... well most AGW deniers aren't in such countries.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 20:02:13

AGW deniers keep hiding behind scientific increase in crop growth, that could off-set adverse climate changes for decades. As for poor countries unable to implement science improvements to crops..... well most AGW deniers aren't in such countries.


that isn't what is being claimed here at all. It is the "natural greening" via CO2 enrichment which has additional affects on nutrient absorption. No intervention was required. But don't believe me, read the papers.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 20:05:00

rock, they don't like science. They must like government control . . . by themselves. (I can't believe I am talking like that yikes :shock: I used to be a whiny green myself :-x :lol: But I grew up)

litesong wrote:
pstarr wrote: you have no evidence climate change has reduced aggregate US crop production.


AGW deniers keep hiding behind scientific increase in crop growth, that could off-set adverse climate changes for decades. As for poor countries unable to implement science improvements to crops..... well most AGW deniers aren't in such countries.
The studies have nothing to do with crop science. The observations (by landsat satellites) show that all vegetation on the earth, particularly dry-land vegetation has increased with CO2 emmissions. That means the CO2 is being taken up by natural processes. It's all about ecology and planetary stasis.

I'm going to shoot my wad here and take a guess as to why you guys are so angry. I'll bet none of you (excepting dohboi. He eats vegan) have done a damn thing about global warming other than complain about it here at po.com. Am I right?
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 20:13:07

I think it is interesting that rocdoc can cite scientific papers that appear to contradict some of the changes many of us expect to see from global warming. In my view, challenging some aspects of AGW does not necessarily make rocdoc a denialist. The true denialists generally don't go around quoting from actual scientific papers.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 20:31:13

I will tell you this yellowcanoe: it feels good to finally admit ones errors. I was a global warming fanatic but had the good graces to mostly keep it to myself. I did my job by living a simpler, smaller, less energy intensive life.

It's good to act, and not just talk. You can stop being defensive and relax a bit. These guys/gals are angry probably because they are too committed to one point of view. And if they admit they are wrong, they might have to go back and apologize for bullying people. That's hard to do.

Science is about observing the natural world, guessing how it works, making models and predictions, testing those model. If something isn't right, you change you assumptions, rework the model, try a different direction.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 20:36:45

"global warming fanatic "

Maybe if you weren't such a fanatic then you wouldn't be so fanatically skeptical now.

It sounds like you go to extremes, rather than carefully weighing the facts.

Yet we should now take your word over that of every established scientific body in the world???

Hmmmmm.....
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Change is a Hoax pt 7

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 26 Oct 2016, 20:37:53

In my view, challenging some aspects of AGW does not necessarily make rocdoc a denialist. The true denialists generally don't go around quoting from actual scientific papers.


I hate that term for a variety of reasons. Generally though it suggests someone has bought into a "religious belief" that can not be challenged which is the antithesis of scientific investigation. One only has to stay up with the continual flood of literature to realize there is nothing "settled" about climate science nor for that matter many other areas of science. I had the pleasure of interacting with Art Meyerhoff decades ago when he was labelled as the crazy guy who didn't believe in plate tectonics. That of course wasn't true but Art had taken it upon himself to identify the uncertainties in what was then a newly formed science. It had not taken very long for it to become "bandwagon science" and everyone who was either seeking tenure or additional research grants was rushing to publish something that agreed or supported the theory. Art, on the other hand, spent his time pointing out some of the errors or holes in the arguments. For all the pain he went through dealing with critics who had stakes in the game he was given the forum to discuss his beliefs. Through time most scientists in the field came to the conclusion....opps maybe we went to far down the rabbit hole...Art had some important points. But in the early days his critics spent time talking about his support for Immanuel Velikovsky and his theories that were way out there. Art never really believed all of that but pointed out all theories need to be addressed and discussed as that is how true scientific learning progresses. I think we could all learn from that attitude.
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