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Germanys dirty secret under Chancelor Merkel

Re: Germanys dirty secret under Chancelor Merkel

Unread postby cephalotus » Wed 19 Apr 2017, 16:40:24

Tanada wrote:Lots of very impressive graphs at link below quote demonstrating just how stupid it was for Germany to adopt the anti-nuclear path. Electricity in Germany is now twice as expensive and three times as dirty in Germany as it is in France where Nuclear Fission provides nearly all baseload capacity and allows the country to export cheap electricity to all of its neighbors that have turned away from fission....


Sure?

http://reneweconomy.com.au/france-cant- ... and-17962/
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Re: Germanys dirty secret under Chancelor Merkel

Unread postby cephalotus » Wed 19 Apr 2017, 16:47:44

regardingpo wrote:
1. it's not energy, it's electricity (this is their favorite "mistake")


Depends on the data. Energy is not the same as electricity. You just need to read.

2. a lot of it comes from biomass which is worse than burning coal

Wood accounts for a majority of renewable energy generation in Poland and Finland, and nearly 40 percent in Germany...


40% of its end energy, mainly for heating homes. Wood is only used in very small quantities to generat electricity in Germany.

Btw, we are one of the few countries in the world where forrest and the wood in them is growing signfificantly year by year...

so burning wood for dmestic heating8where it is used in Germany) is more or less carbon neutral.

Our renewable electricity(!) btw is mainly from wind, solar and biogas. (methane).
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Re: Germanys dirty secret under Chancelor Merkel

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 19 Apr 2017, 16:51:46

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ne-thought

Europe’s Coal Power Is Going up in Smoke -- Fast
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Re: Germanys dirty secret under Chancelor Merkel

Unread postby cephalotus » Wed 19 Apr 2017, 16:58:14

Jupidu wrote:... After the abandonment of a open brown coal pit the terrain can't be used for decades because of the danger of landslides.


Burning coal is never a good idea f you care about CO2 emissions. No doubt about it.

But if you take "some" money you can make quite nice things with the holes you digged:

Image

http://www.lausitzerseenland.de/de.html

I usually spend some summer days each year cycling around the new lakes there and camping. It think they made it quite nicely.

Afaik Germany is one of the few (the only) country in the world that rebuilt nuclear power plants, that rebuilt Uranium mines (Wismut AG) and the rebuilds coal mines ta such a scale...
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Re: Germanys dirty secret under Chancelor Merkel

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 19 Apr 2017, 17:04:09

this year solar capacity will overtake coal for the first time in Western Europe

(from link above)
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Re: Germanys dirty secret under Chancelor Merkel

Unread postby M_B_S » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 04:13:29

@ cephalotos

No the coal pit lakes are ecological dead dispite some bugs nothing could live in it for decades.

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Re: Germanys dirty secret under Chancelor Merkel

Unread postby cephalotus » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 07:10:39

@MBS

As often you are talking about things you only partially understand.

Yes, some lakes are acid at the beginning, that's not unespected, but they are far from "ecological dead" and a normal pH can be (and is) established with some maintanace.

Situation when flooding just started in the 90s: http://www-docs.b-tu.de/fg-gewaessersch ... 2_ar_3.pdf (p. 25ff.)

Situation now: https://www.lmbv.de/index.php/guete-von-lmbv-seen.html

17 out of 30 lakes already have a good water quality just a few years after flooding them.

(and btw, of course you can bath and swimm in those lakes, also in those where it isn't allowed yet. Obviously at your own risk in such cases.)

I'm heavily opposed to talks about burning huge amounts of lignite until 2040 or even 2050 (maybe keep some power plants as a "cold reserve", if technological possible), but on the other hand the global climate is already fucked anyway. Tar sands in Canada, gas fracking in US, deep sea oil in the gulf of Mexico, lignite in Germay, None(!) of that stuff should be allowed to be burned if you really care about limiting global warming at +4K.
+2K has already become complete utopia no matter what we do.

But I'm also opposed to nuclear power plants in Germany. If the US or China wants to build them that's not my problem, as long as they are far away and as long as they pay for a reasonable" waste managment of their radioactive stuff.

Having one reactor melting every 10.000 reactor years so far translates to an average time of 25 years between catastrophal events now with ca. 400+ (aging) reactors in the world. I visited Chernobyl last summer and I don't want to have something similar in Germany.

And this accident rate and the generally super high costs of nuclear power generation, the still unsolved problems (after 60 years!) with waste managemnet and the risk of proliferation to terrorists is for only 2% of global energy demand! To make an impact on the energy sector the world would need at least 10 times more nuclear reactors!

Who would pay for them?
Where to get the uranium?
How to avoid proliferation?
What to to with an dramatic accident every 2.5 years?

It's a good idea to avoid that nuclear shit in Germany asap especially at times when noone(!) in the world has shown any interest in really limiting global warming.

Germany (together with a handful of other countries like US, China, Denmark, Spain) paid billions to make solar and wind energy cost effective for the rest of the world. That's already much more than what most others have done so far.

So nuclear shutdown first (because this is the highest risk) and coal shutdown second. (Maybe keep an reserve, because situation to Putin's Russia and Erdogans Turkey needs also be considered for natural gas import security)
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Re: Germanys dirty secret under Chancelor Merkel

Unread postby M_B_S » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 08:24:06

@ cephalotus

Dont fool a Peak Oiler its not possible

https://www.amazon.de/Acidic-Pit-Lakes- ... 3642293832

Acidic Pit Lakes: The Legacy of Coal and Metal Surface Mines (Environmental Science and Engineering)
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Re: Germanys dirty secret under Chancelor Merkel

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 09:59:25

Is it not fascinating that an intelligent human being can completely ignore the massive chemical contamination of the environment that comes from burning coal, and yet hold at the same time a completely unintelligent fear of radiation?

Chemical pollution kills thousands perhaps as many as hundreds of thousands of people every year when compared to world population. Nuclear fission power has killed virtually zero in any year. But the intelligent consumers assumes the chemical poisoning is just part of life and cowers in fear at the image of clean safe nuclear power sneakily killing them despite all evidence to the contrary.

We really are a dumb species.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Germanys dirty secret under Chancelor Merkel

Unread postby cephalotus » Thu 20 Apr 2017, 10:23:33

Tanada wrote:Is it not fascinating that an intelligent human being can completely ignore the massive chemical contamination of the environment that comes from burning coal, ...
Chemical pollution kills thousands perhaps as many as hundreds of thousands of people every year when compared to world population...


I do not disagree that burning coal pollutes.

I disagree, that you always generate wastelands or biologial dead lakes for many deacdes.

This is nonsense.

I look at nuclear power from a cost perspective (including all costs!) and from that side it is just horrible. Everything else is much cheaper.

We have 60 years of nuclear power and it recieved next to nothing positive, but large amounts of radioactive waste, aging power plants, plutonium stockpiles in many countries and at least three large contaminated (in this caes really for deacdes) regions.

Why should an intelligent human be pro fission power plants in a highly populated regions?

Build them in the US if you like to do so. And we will shut down ours and there is nothing that you can do about it. (be happy, you will have more uranium for yourself)
This shit is already expensive enough that it has become unpayable for even large energy companies.

I predict that companies that will have the experience to rebuild that stuff will see a huge demand for their expertise in the coming decades.


New nuclear power plants? Likey Hinkley C? A good joke.

New offshore wind plants have subsidies of 0,0ct/kWh in Germany now, Hinkley C wants subsidies at around 13ct/kWh + Inflation for 35 years (and you still have to pay an unknown amount for the waste and there is still no insurance available for those, so you have to include that cost, too).

Sooner or later we will stop burning coal, but we will stop nuclear first.

Like it or not.

The world climate is already completly fucked, because not a single country in the world is willing to keep their fossile fuels untouched in the ground as long as it is profitable to burn them.

I would be the first person that would vote for a global tax on CO2.

Until than we all will have to prepare for a much hotter world for next Generations and at least we will hopefully not have to prepare additionally for the next nuclear desaster within our own borders.
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