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Gail: Energy Supply, Population, and the Economy

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Gail: Where are we headed?

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 31 May 2016, 11:08:44

ennui2 wrote:Yep. Gail is out of his league in trying her hand at economic theory, and her "all roads lead to doom" circular logic is transparent.


Old dog, new tricks, etc etc. If someone wants the world to end, they write things about how all roads lead to the end of the world. If it had worked out as Gail planned back at TOD, she would be a god of the blogosphere for having called it. Except it didn't go that way, and the previous poster who noted that she has now declared all roads lead to peak oil, high price, low price, normal price, is the perfect solution. Anything and everything is peak oil, just read the paper, blame it on peak oil, repeat forever. It is the blogosphere, there is no requirement it makes sense.
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Re: Gail: Where are we headed?

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 31 May 2016, 12:33:56

Wow, reading that you either have to be a committed doomer or you end up scratching your head. Everything is bad, nothing is good? What a depressing world view to hold.
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Re: Gail: Where are we headed?

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 31 May 2016, 13:22:31

Subjectivist wrote:Wow, reading that you either have to be a committed doomer or you end up scratching your head. Everything is bad, nothing is good? What a depressing world view to hold.


It is a dreary personal outlook. Not sure if Gail is depressed or not, could be. Depression and doom would seem to be natural companions. But that then leads to what is "doom" because we all have different definitions of that one. And as I have previously noted, we are suffering scary deflation of scary words as of late, "collapse" means the stock market is higher now than when collapse of it was claimed last August, Greece was going to spread contagion everywhere across Europe, and when that didn't happen we now use the same word for the Brexit. WWIII with Russia in Syria except they left without starting it, China going to destroy the world by consuming...until their economy slowed down and now they are going to destroy New Zealand and Australia by having slowed down, the list just doesn't stop. But if you only want to see doom, whatever that might be, you can find it everywhere. Maybe the key is to just enjoy life, and when doom arrives, real doom, not contrived stuff, be thrilled at being right, and hope it isn't a continental sized basalt flow rather than a lower stock market and higher unemployment for Starbucks baristas.
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
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Re: Gail: Where are we headed?

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 31 May 2016, 13:30:41

No, Gail is like Greer, Kunstler, Orlov, Zerohedge, and the rest. They feed off of the attention they get for being a soothsayer, keeper of hidden knowledge, red pill vs. blue pill. And the only way to maintain the faithful is for every IV drip of news to be interpreted as a sign of doom, a sign that the "sheeple", naturally, can't see. Presenting a truly unbiased perspective on things (where we go through stretches of normalcy) would lead people to hit the snooze bar and not keep coming back for their daily dose of doom.
"If the oil price crosses above the Etp maximum oil price curve within the next month, I will leave the forum." --SumYunGai (9/21/2016)
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Re: Gail: Where are we headed?

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 31 May 2016, 13:44:38

ennui2 wrote:No, Gail is like Greer, Kunstler, Orlov, Zerohedge, and the rest. They feed off of the attention they get for being a soothsayer, keeper of hidden knowledge, red pill vs. blue pill.


Well, that is true as well but seems a little more hurtful, holding up a mirror to their routine. It doesn't take about 20 minutes of research back through their own archives to realize the game they are playing, but hey, if it makes them happy, why not? It isn't as though there aren't objective sources on these topics elsewhere that provide real information and analysis, right?

ennui2 wrote: And the only way to maintain the faithful is for every IV drip of news to be interpreted as a sign of doom, a sign that the "sheeple", naturally, can't see.


Well, just as with invisible friends, analysis of invisible trends aren't meant to be seen by the faithful..there is only the requirement that you BELIEVE!

ennui2 wrote: Presenting a truly unbiased perspective on things (where we go through stretches of normalcy) would lead people to hit the snooze bar and not keep coming back for their daily dose of doom.


Reminds me of one of JD's greats!! The guy really was a genius, figuring this all out even during the hay day of peak oil, and his observations still hold true today.

http://peakoildebunked.blogspot.com/200 ... edlot.html
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Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
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Re: Gail: Where are we headed?

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 31 May 2016, 16:26:26

That old post from JD was spot-on. This also explains why there's so few hardcore doomers left. It's exhausting to stay on the daily doomer treadmill. Real life 'n' stuff.
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Re: Gail: Energy Supply, Population, and the Economy

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 11:45:02

Much more including all the accompanying graphs at link below the quote.

The Depression of the 1930s Was an Energy Crisis

Economists, including Ben Bernanke, give all kinds of reasons for the Great Depression of the 1930s. But what if the real reason for the Great Depression was an energy crisis?

When I put together a chart of per capita energy consumption since 1820 for a post back in 2012, there was a strange “flat spot” in the period between 1920 and 1940. When we look at the underlying data, we see that coal production was starting to decline in some of the major coal producing parts of the world at that time. From the point of view of people living at the time, the situation might have looked very much like peak energy consumption, at least on a per capita basis.

Even back in the 1820 to 1900 period, world per capita energy had gradually risen as an increasing amount of coal was used. We know that going back a very long time, the use of water and wind had never amounted to very much (Figure 2) compared to burned biomass and coal, in terms of energy produced. Humans and draft animals were also relatively low in energy production. Because of its great heat-producing ability, coal quickly became the dominant fuel.

In general, we know that energy products, including coal, are necessary to enable processes that contribute to economic growth. Heat is needed for almost all industrial processes. Transportation needs energy products of one kind or another. Building roads and homes requires energy products. It is not surprising that the Industrial Revolution began in Britain, with its use of coal.

We also know that there is a long-term correlation between world GDP growth and energy consumption.

The “flat period” in 1920-1940 in Figure 1 was likely problematic. The economy is a self-organized networked system; what was wrong could be expected to appear in many parts of the economy. Economic growth was likely far too low. The chance for conflict among nations was much higher because of stresses in the system–there was not really enough coal to go around. These stresses could extend to the period immediately before 1920 and after 1940, as well.

A Peak in Coal Production Hit UK, United States, and Germany at Close to the Same Time

This is a coal supply chart for UK. Its peak coal production (which was an all time peak) was in 1913. The UK was the largest coal producer in Europe at the time.

The United States hit a peak in its production only five years later, in 1918. This peak was only a “local” peak. There were also later peaks, in 1947 and 2008, after coal production was developed in new areas of the country.

Evidently, the highest quality coal, Anthracite, reached a peak and began to decline about 1918. Bituminous coal hit a peak about the same time, and dropped way back in production during the 1930s. The poorer quality coals were added later, as the better-quality coals became less abundant.

The pattern for Germany’s hard coal shows a pattern somewhat in between the UK and the US pattern.

Germany too had a peak during World War I, then dropped back for several years. It then had three later peaks, the highest one during World War II.

What Affects Coal Production?

If there is a shortage of coal, fixing it is not as simple as “inadequate coal supply leads to higher price,” quickly followed by “higher price leads to more production.” Clearly the amount of coal resource in the ground affects the amount of coal extraction, but other things do as well.

[1] The amount of built infrastructure for taking the coal out and delivering the coal. Usually, a country only adds a little coal extraction capacity at a time and leaves the rest in the ground. (This is how the US and Germany could have temporary coal peaks, which were later surpassed by higher peaks.) To add more extraction capacity, it is necessary to add (a) investment needed for getting the coal out of the ground as well as (b) infrastructure for delivering coal to potential users. This includes things like trains and tracks, and export terminals for coal transported by boats.

[2] Prices available in the marketplace for coal. These fluctuate widely. We will discuss this more in a later section. Clearly, the higher the price, the greater the quantity of coal that can be extracted and delivered to users.

[3] The cost of extraction, both in existing locations and in new locations. These costs can perhaps be reduced if it is possible to add new technology. At the same time, there is a tendency for costs within a given mine to increase over time, as it becomes necessary to access deeper, thinner seams. Also, mines tend to be built in the most convenient locations first, with best access to transportation. New mines very often will be higher cost, when these factors are considered.

[4] The cost and availability of capital (shares of stock and sale of debt) needed for building new infrastructure, and for building new devices made possible by new technology. These are affected by interest rates and tax levels.

[5] Time lags needed to implement changes. New infrastructure and new technology are likely to take several years to implement.

[6] The extent to which wages can be recycled into demand for energy products. An economy needs to have buyers for the products it makes. If a large share of the workers in an economy is very low-paid, this creates a problem.

If there is an energy shortage, many people think of the shortage as causing high prices. In fact, the shortage is at least equally likely to cause greater wage disparity. This might also be considered a shortage of jobs that pay well. Without jobs that pay well, would-be workers find it hard to purchase the many goods and services created by the economy (such as homes, cars, food, clothing, and advanced education). For example, young adults may live with their parents longer, and elderly people may move in with their children.


GAIL
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Gail: Energy Supply, Population, and the Economy

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 12:34:48

Tanada wrote:Much more including all the accompanying graphs at link below the quote.
The Depression of the 1930s Was an Energy Crisis


Classic peaker tunnel-vision.

"I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail."

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Gail: Energy Supply, Population, and the Economy

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 12:49:30

With respect to all of you mathematical economists of all flavors, that analysis by Tverberg is total claptrap. WW1 and WW2 were in addition to being extremely destructive of both resources and production capacity, deadly events that killed millions of people. Add that "other" deadly event (the "Spanish Flu" influenza epidemic of 1918-1919) and you begin to understand that there were other factors in play. The agricultural output of the USA took a major hit in the "dirty thirties" (1930-1936) when drought ravaged the MidWest and culminated in the "Dust Bowl".

"A series of unfortunate events" which ended in the near destruction of the civilized world in the intense combat of WW2 and initiated the rather extreme economic and philosophic conflict called "The Cold War", which in turn produced microelectronic devices and the cyber world of today. I tend to think that the energy supply more or less followed energy demand, and that energy was cheap then and still is relatively cheap today, right up until we run short of oil and coal to exploit.

YES, I admit to being a technologist and to seeing the world through virtual reality goggles. But I am no more ignorant than Tverberg and I do have the viewpoint of an amatuer (but published) historian. Which is why I can say "claptrap" and mean it.
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Re: Gail: Energy Supply, Population, and the Economy

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 13:30:27

http://www.encyclopedia.com/economics/e ... pression-0
Might I suggest we seem to have some parallels to the runup to the 1930's Great Depression with the present times. From the link I provide, one sees that a huge Lending/Debt buildup directly connected with the rise in the Stock Market. If I can coin the phrase by Allan Greenspan it was a period of "irrational exuberance", that is in line with how the period was named "The Roaring Twenties"
And your post Tanada referring to Gail's analysis is eerily similar to now. A looming energy shortage or problem coupled with structural flaws in the Economy depressing Demand. This is all part of the modern cycles of Profiteering we see in Capitalism. This encourages bubbles and ponzi schemes. It also is characterized inherently by loose government regulations and Business practices that reward the owners of capital rather than the laborers. Thus wage stagnation, and layoffs etc. All this weakens and makes more vulnerable the General Economy. So, one can see many of the same conditions now. Irrational exuberance in the Stock Market, structural weakness in the Economy, excessive lending/speculation.
However, I see things much more grim this time around. Thoughts?
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Re: Gail: Energy Supply, Population, and the Economy

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 13:31:20

Tanada wrote:Much more including all the accompanying graphs at link below the quote.

The Depression of the 1930s Was an Energy Crisis


GAIL


Tanada, do you honestly consider this something worth considering? Or are you just jerking everyone's chain this morning?
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Re: Gail: Energy Supply, Population, and the Economy

Unread postby GHung » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 13:45:54

pstarr wrote:
Tanada wrote:If there is an energy shortage, many people think of the shortage as causing high prices. In fact, the shortage is at least equally likely to cause greater wage disparity. This might also be considered a shortage of jobs that pay well. Without jobs that pay well, would-be workers find it hard to purchase the many goods and services created by the economy (such as homes, cars, food, clothing, and advanced education). For example, young adults may live with their parents longer, and elderly people may move in with their children.

GAIL


Image
The large scale mechanization of agriculture after WWI (when heavy machines, including treaded tractors came into common use) left many farm worker unemployed. Efficiencies of scale would play out as decreased energy use. Before 1900, half of Americans were employed in agriculture, now only a few.
With internal combustion came the first modern tractors in the early 1900s, becoming more popular after the Fordson tractor (ca. 1917). At first reapers and combine harvesters were pulled by tractors, but in the 1930s self powered combines were developed.[5] (Link to a chapter on agricultural mechanisation in the 20th Century at reference)

Advertising for motorised equipment in farm journals during this era did its best to compete against horse-drawn methods with economic arguments, extolling common themes such as that a tractor "eats only when it works", that one tractor could replace many horses, and that mechanisation could allow one man to get more work done per day than he ever had before. The horse population in the US began to decline in the 1920s after the conversion of agriculture and transportation to internal combustion. Peak tractor sales in the US were around 1950.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanise ... re#History

Reduced per capita energy expenditure was an effect, not cause of the Great Depression


Meanwhile, millions of homes were being connected to the power grids; rural electrification, TVA,,, all that. How could per capita energy use go flat at the same time?
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Re: Gail: Energy Supply, Population, and the Economy

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 14:18:07

GHung wrote:-snip-

Meanwhile, millions of homes were being connected to the power grids; rural electrification, TVA,,, all that. How could per capita energy use go flat at the same time?


Those rural households you refer to were not electrified. Perhaps one bare bulb dangling in the kitchen, another in the barn. No electric motors, no A/C, no milking machines, no chicken incubators. Also no money to acquire these things. The cities were where the electrical devices were, and the cities declined electrical consumption as fast as the rural areas came online. The growth in power use came in the postwar 1950's.
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Re: Gail: Energy Supply, Population, and the Economy

Unread postby GHung » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 14:28:00

Image
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Re: Gail: Energy Supply, Population, and the Economy

Unread postby GHung » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 14:49:03

On the other hand, here's a paper that posits that per-household energy consumption has dropped dramatically since 1900:

Ninety Years of U.S. Household Energy History: A Quantitative Update

http://aceee.org/files/proceedings/1992 ... aper17.pdf
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Re: Gail: Energy Supply, Population, and the Economy

Unread postby marmico » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 15:01:58

Tverberg is a moron. Next year she can move her x-axis 5 years to the left.

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Re: Gail: Energy Supply, Population, and the Economy

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 18:22:10

onlooker wrote:If I can coin the phrase by Allan Greenspan it was a period of "irrational exuberance",


Exactly. The mania/panic cycle is a function of HUMAN NATURE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory

They have little if anything to do with fossil fuels.

You're seeing it currently with crypto and the stock market. The only way to protect from this is through regulation. If you regulate, bubbles crop up anywhere else in which there is less or no regulation (crypto applies there).

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Gail: Energy Supply, Population, and the Economy

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 18:26:35

asg70 wrote:
onlooker wrote:If I can coin the phrase by Allan Greenspan it was a period of "irrational exuberance",


Exactly. The mania/panic cycle is a function of HUMAN NATURE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory

They have little if anything to do with fossil fuels.

You're seeing it currently with crypto and the stock market. The only way to protect from this is through regulation. If you regulate, bubbles crop up anywhere else in which there is less or no regulation (crypto applies there).

I agree with all you just said Asg :-D
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