[KaiserJeep]

One interesting correlation: Classic IQ tests correlate quite well with the ability to earn income. More so than does the number of years schooling that one has. Master plumbers, electricians, and other highly skilled trades tend to earn more and retire earlier than do other occupations, and they also score high on IQ tests.

One COULD design an IQ test for bushmen or aborigines, which they would score highly on and Europeans would bomb. But the distribution of scores would still form a bell curve, and the median of that curve would still be in a different location for each genetic cluster.

The HGP was very unforgiving of Liberal social fantasies, and we are still stuck with a set of obsolete legal codes that were constructed around obsolete notions of race. The HGP analyses related to intelligence have been mostly removed from the web, and the ongoing analysis and continuing research on the genetic basis for intelligence is confined to journals behind paywalls. This happened in the after the identification of the highest intelligence group (the Ashkenazi Jews) and the lowest intelligence group (the Hutu/Tutsi/Twa tribal group in the Congo). One very good question: If the test itself has been translated into different languages, can one trust the result? (Because different translations produce different median scores.)

The HGP also disclosed the Ashkenazim as the longest-lived humans of any genetic cluster so far identified, with a median age of death more than 7 years greater than the median for the human race as a whole. This age data is also controversial in nature, and the subject of ongoing research.

I for one think that the HGP is a good thing. It's better to understand our true nature, than to be deluded as to what that nature actually is.

[jedrider]

We just discovered that our daughter is a conservative whereas everyone else in her life is a liberal. So, so much for indoctrination. I agree with Ibon about the effect of education and the tendency towards liberalism. I will also hazard to guess that excessive money also will have a tendency towards encouraging conservatism, for obvious reasons! There will be those that neither situation has a significant effect, and that is variation, evidently.

So, I was curious about all this fuss with Charles Murray and searched the web about him, and I found the following that I quoted in which I underline the key information IMO on what Charles Murray's position is.

My summary would is that there is an underclass that has been problematic which Murray wishes to address with his advocacy of limited government and regulation. Also jumping ahead, Murray has an interview with Bill Kristol about the newly forming white underclass that is probably largely responsible for Trump's victory. What this has to do with IQ and cognitive partitioning, I don't really know, but economic partitioning is certainly happening and the right-wing agenda of corporate dominance cannot do anything but further this economic partitioning, although this probably catches Murray off-guard a bit, so he says little about it.

The sociological concept of underclass is a relatively new. As group the underclass are those people who due to lack of employment, skills, income, wealth or property appear to stand outside ordinary society.

It can be argued the underclass are those who have become surplus to a globalised economy because production can be moved anywhere in the world where unskilled labour is cheapest.

American Sociologist Charles Murray (new right theorist) who viewed ‘excessive’ state welfare payments as creating a dependency culture who don’t want to work and there’s your underclass. For Murray social welfare (social security as it was once known) started out as a safety-net for people when hit with hard-time, but has become hijacked by a group of people with no intention of working.

Charles Murray visited the UK in 1989 and said it has a developing underclass.

Murray said: “the underclass are defined by their behaviour. Their homes are littered and unkempt. The men in the family are unable to hold down a job. Drunkenness is common. The children grew up ill-schooled and ill-behaved and contribute to a disproportionate share of juvenile delinquents”

Murray saw underclass as behaviour a lifestyle choice, a disease which infects people who share many of the following characteristics (female headed lone parents, out-of-wedlock-births, school drop-outs, violent and criminal).

Much of these characteristics are evident in newspaper reports – Daily Mail.

[ralfy]

Another problem with points concerning IQ is that what makes a person intelligent in one situation might not apply in another. That is, just as a jungle dweller in an urban environment will likely be bewildered, someone born and raised in the city might not survive for long in the wild.

[Plantagenet]

Murray saw underclass as behaviour a lifestyle choice, a disease which infects people who share many of the following characteristics (female headed lone parents, out-of-wedlock-births, school drop-outs, violent and criminal).

]

Not quite right.

You are attributing the underclass to moral failings of individuals. But Murrays ideas have nothing to do with morality. Murray is talking about bad social policy CREATING an underclass. For instance take welfare payments to unwed moms.
Murrays point is that if the government pays people to be unwed moms then you will get more unwed moms. Add in food stamps, housing subsidies, free health care etc, and it becomes a rational choice to make a career out of being on welfare, and large numbers of people will make entirely rational decisions based on this poorly designed social policy that results in the creation of a group of people stuck in multi generational poverty and welfare dependency

Cheers!

[KaiserJeep]

Manning's Sociological theories about the underclass are interesting, but IMHO have nothing to do with why he and a Left-wing professor were attacked by a mob of students. Manning first published his theory about the underclass in 1980, it was not until 1994 when he and Herrnstein published The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life that he became a controversial figure.

The gist of the argument (from Wikipedia on "Race and Intelligence"):

The study of human intelligence is one of the most controversial topics in psychology. It remains unclear whether group differences in intelligence test scores are caused by heritable factors or by "other correlated demographic variables such as socioeconomic status, education level, and motivation."[45] Hunt and Carlson outlined four contemporary positions on differences in IQ based on race or ethnicity. The first is that these reflect real differences in average group intelligence, which is caused by a combination of environmental factors and heritable differences in brain function. A second position is that differences in average cognitive ability between races are caused entirely by social and/or environmental factors. A third position holds that differences in average cognitive ability between races do not exist, and that the differences in average test scores are the result of inappropriate use of the tests themselves. Finally, a fourth position is that either or both of the concepts of race and general intelligence are poorly constructed and therefore any comparisons between races are meaningless.[40]

40) Hunt, Earl; Carlson, Jerry (2007). "Considerations relating to the study of group differences in intelligence". Perspectives on Psychological Science. 2 (2): 194–213. doi:10.1111/j.1745-6916.2007.00037.x.
45) Hampshire, A.; Highfield, R. R.; Parkin, B. L.; Owen, A. M. (2012). "Fractionating human intelligence". Neuron. 76 (6): 1225–1237. doi:10.1016/j.neuron.2012.06.022.

One could certainly choose door #1,#2, #3, or #4. Manning and Herrnstein chose door #1, and had the best data so far published to back this up, and the hotbed debate about intelligence is still going on. Further research including the Human Genome Project seemingly vindicated their views. If they are to be believed, disproportionate numbers of senior white males will continue to succeed, while other groups and sexes continue to attempt to catch up.

The problem is that if they are actually correct, then the attempts we are making within our society to establish equality among assorted humans are pretty much doomed, the implications being that your DNA is the bigger part of everything. Welfare will not help people learn to earn income, and Affirmative Action in our universities and colleges will not produce proportionate numbers of minority or female graduates, nor will Affirmative Action in hiring and promoting assure equality in the workforce. Not to mention controversies about whether we recognize two sexes or as many as seven (hetero MF plus LGBTQ). (Who knows how many bathrooms that requires.)

Similar things were debated in the Eugenics controversies of the early and mid 20th century. Those positions were based on the "old" concepts of race and culture and intelligence that existed then, and were later discredited. The "new" concepts of genetic clusters are verifiably true but also obsolete the former concepts. Nor is it PC for lay people to debate such things outside of the pages of the scholarly journals of Psychology, Anthropology, etc.

So shame on all of you, you are not permitted such thoughts.

[jedrider]

So Jed, it seems Murray is a comprehensive racist, and has all his hateful ignorant bases covered. Not only are those lowlifes genetically inferior, but they've also made crappy lifestyle choices. Damn . . . those colored can't do anything right

I haven't read enough to know if he is an out-and-out racist, but I do believe after listening to this interview, that all the formidable knowledge he has, don't lead directly to his conclusions. He could be just a 'cognitive elite' hit man for the American Enterprise Institute and nothing more. In my opinion, there ARE differences between different groups, but we must not get into the rut of stereotyping individuals, and the differences could have many origins as well. Yes, we have striven to create an all-inclusive society and what is wrong with that?

http://conversationswithbillkristol.org/transcript/charles-murray-ii-transcript/

I’m not talking about whites and blacks, I’m talking about Welshman and Irishmen, for heaven sakes. I’m talking about French and Germans. There are all sorts of ways in which groups of people who have been identified sociologically or anthropologically as groups are also different genetically.

They will have different outcomes in life for reasons that are genetic in origin, and they are not the fault of the unfairness of society, and that goes in spades for males and females. All of this runs against the prevailing – it’s more than political convention, it’s dogma. The dogma is that if men and women are different in important outcomes in life, it’s the result of the unfairness of structures and systems. If blacks and whites are different in outcomes of life, etc., etc.

[KaiserJeep]

jedrider, what exactly is a racist when the very definition of "race" used for the last 400+ years has been proven obsolete? The Human Genome Project did in fact establish that humans can be grouped into something between 7 and 56 groups by their DNA, and that these groups differed in many different ways from one another, but it also proved that the old concepts of African/Asian/European (i.e. the three long accepted "races") were obsolete.

[jedrider]

Race is not that useful a category any longer, certainly. The Washington Post says about Murray:

In “The Bell Curve,” Murray, a social scientist at the American Enterprise Institute, and his co-author, Harvard University psychologist Richard J. Herrnstein, found worrisome evidence that American society was becoming cognitively stratified, with an increasingly affluent cognitive elite and “a deteriorating quality of life for people at the bottom end of the cognitive ability distribution.

I can't imagine a better thing happening to the man than being heckled at some elite University. At least, it gets him in the news. The US appears to have a stratification problem that has only grown worst. Has liberal policies failed us? Has neo-liberal policies failed us? Too much population growth? I'll take the last two.

With Trump as our President, we appear to now have the revenge of the non-cognitive non-elite, but the wealthy class is still going to win.

[Ibon]

With Trump as our President, we appear to now have the revenge of the non-cognitive non-elite, but the wealthy class is still going to win.

Bingo. And where will the rage of the underclass be directed next once the sweet revenge wears thin and nothing has improved?

[Ibon]

I am experimenting with a bit of fiery rhetoric this morning

You have an intelligent elite who of course aren't going to change a system they are a beneficiaries of. This actually was the downfall of the progressive left in my opinion because a lot of lip service was paid to social and economic equality when the most they could come up with in 8 years was same sex marriage or transgender rights. This is throwing a bone at their constituents without delivering an ounce of red meat. Why where the political rallies of Hillary Clinton so luke warm. Why so much distrust of her person? The political right does the same thing overtly by tax breaks for the wealthy and being beholden to corporate lobbyists and saying that getting the government off our backs will stimulate growth and the economy when the only thing that grows is the disparity between the elite and the underclass.

Both parties use the uneducated and non-cognizant underclass to preserve their privilege. One could argue that the left is more insidious because they preserve their privilege while pretending to serve the needs of the underclass and the political right is at least more honest in their pursuit of privilege promising Reaganesque prosperity around the corner which they well know will never happen.

Trump tapped into this. Smart enough to know that the ignorant stupid uneducated and economically disenfranchised underclass would lap of his shit hook line and sinker. Which they did. He is throwing the bone of revenge. The red meat?

The left has been left with their pants down. The right is now at the helm of an underclass whose appetites have been awakened with the promise that their lives will now improve. This happening while the shaft up their asses is being pushed further by the political right who will dismantle the few tepid social protections in place.

It is easy to manipulate an ignorant underclass. Only at the beginning though.

Both parties have been playing with fire for awhile now deep in privilege land. The underclass may be stupid but somewhere underneath all that non-cognizance is a pride that when wounded long enough will raise its ugly head.

If the puppet masters are smart they will continue for awhile to use the scapegoats of immigrants and fear of muslim terrorists and ignorance and racial hatred to distract the stupid. This can only work for so long.

This is a dangerous game.

[Cog]

What social protections are under attack? Name them.

Just like the calls of racism and homophobia from the left. They can't name the event when it ever happened. By the way the term illegal means something. Perhaps not in Panama but it means something here. It means you are breaking the law and are a criminal if you are here illegally. Understand it now?

[Plantagenet]

I am experimenting with a bit of fiery rhetoric this morning

.....the ignorant stupid uneducated and economically disenfranchised underclass would lap of his shit hook line and sinker. Which they did. He is throwing the bone of revenge. The red meat?

The left has been left with their pants down. The right is now at the helm of an underclass whose appetites have been awakened with the promise that their lives will now improve. This happening while the shaft up their asses is being pushed further by the political right.....

No no no. The underclass continued to be loyal to the Ds. Hillary won the underclass vote overwhelmingly

It was the white WORKING CLASS that flipped to Trump and won the election for him

Cheers!

[jedrider]

What social protections are under attack? Name them.

Social security will possibly be gutted. Financial regulations are being gutted. ACA is morphing into NOCARE. Environmental protections are out so hope you like the taste of lead in your water. This one is too easy and they are too numerous.

Just like the calls of racism and homophobia from the left. They can't name the event when it ever happened. By the way the term illegal means something. Perhaps not in Panama but it means something here. It means you are breaking the law and are a criminal if you are here illegally. Understand it now?

In my personal point of view, if illegal immigrants were accepted into our social fabric and WE gained benefit from them being here, they are just undocumented at that point. Maybe we should send back those illegals who worked in the field and give them their due income from the benefits we accrued and I'm sure many of them would be more than happy to return to their home country (if not beset by civil war, in which case they are then refugees).

[KaiserJeep]

Pete, the Working Class is effectively about 25% unemployed today, and those 25% who wanted work but could not find it, ended up comprising the mainstream Trump constituency. Your attempts to smear Murray as a racist are not adding anything to this discussion either.

The intelligent elite that Ibon speaks of certainly exist. They however do not comprise a major force in presidential politics and never have, because since the Civil War have been pretty evenly split between the R's and the D's. They do spend a lot of money in every election cycle, but mostly on Congress and state legislators, their few efforts in the election for POTUS tend to cancel each other. Look at the history of the Roosevelt family to understand this, FDR and "Teddy" were cousins.

As for the economic "underclass", yes it exists, but it is the least useful label of any under discussion. The underclass includes everything from desperate, long unemployed whites, to working/under-employed minorities, to illegal immigrants, to long underemployed men and women who are keeping up appearances under mounting debt.

Plant's above definition of the Welfare Class and how it differs from the Economic Underclass is right on point.

Ibon's earlier comments about political platforms and dogma are also accurate. Both the Liberals and the Conservatives, the D's and the R's, are mired in dogma and have been for decades. Political platforms are not anything they use, they publish such and then ignore them.

The problem with Trump is that he is not a R, nor is he a D even though he was registered as one most of his life. He is a rational and calculating man who hides inside of a blustering shell that is intended to make other people underestimate him. This is absolutely working for him. Note that he has spoken out (and tweeted) his opinions about what happened to Murray, and in the process stirred the pot some more.

I have only one other comment. Reading through this thread, it is glaringly obvious that some of you get information from primary news sources, those would be traditional media with actual "feet on the street" reporters. Others are reading blogs and other commentaries which are not primary news sources, they are mostly scruffy unshaven guys sitting in their cluttered basements in front of a computer screen in dirty underwear, trying to increase the numbers of followers in social media. These are not primary news sources, unless the poster is "Donald J. Trump‏ @realDonaldTrump".

[Ibon]

It was the white WORKING CLASS that flipped to Trump and won the election for him

Where have you been the past 40 years as the workinging class has become increasingly members of the underclass?

These are the very folks i was referring to in my last post, not welfare recipients.

[Cog]

Obviously the test is racist because it didn't give us the results we wanted. Better get rid of tests.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/test ... s-46065836

New York education officials are poised to scrap a test designed to measure the reading and writing skills of people trying to become teachers, in part because an outsized percentage of black and Hispanic candidates were failing it.

The state Board of Regents on Monday is expected Monday to adopt a task force's recommendation of eliminating the literacy exam, known as the Academic Literacy Skills Test.

Backers of the test say eliminating it could put weak teachers in classrooms. Critics of the examination said it is redundant and a poor predictor of who will succeed as a teacher.
***
The reformers believe tests like New York's Academic Literacy Skills Test can serve to weed out aspiring teachers who aren't strong students.

But the literacy test raised alarms from the beginning because just 46 percent of Hispanic test takers and 41 percent of black test takers passed it on the first try, compared with 64 percent of white candidates.
***
"Having a white workforce really doesn't match our student body anymore," Soodak said.

Kate Walsh, the president of National Council on Teacher Quality, which pushes for higher standards for teachers, said that blacks and Latinos don't score as well as whites on the literacy test because of factors like poverty and the legacy of racism

[Tanada]

Obviously the test is racist because it didn't give us the results we wanted. Better get rid of tests.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/test ... s-46065836

New York education officials are poised to scrap a test designed to measure the reading and writing skills of people trying to become teachers, in part because an outsized percentage of black and Hispanic candidates were failing it.

The state Board of Regents on Monday is expected Monday to adopt a task force's recommendation of eliminating the literacy exam, known as the Academic Literacy Skills Test.

Backers of the test say eliminating it could put weak teachers in classrooms. Critics of the examination said it is redundant and a poor predictor of who will succeed as a teacher.
***
The reformers believe tests like New York's Academic Literacy Skills Test can serve to weed out aspiring teachers who aren't strong students.

But the literacy test raised alarms from the beginning because just 46 percent of Hispanic test takers and 41 percent of black test takers passed it on the first try, compared with 64 percent of white candidates.
***
"Having a white workforce really doesn't match our student body anymore," Soodak said.

Kate Walsh, the president of National Council on Teacher Quality, which pushes for higher standards for teachers, said that blacks and Latinos don't score as well as whites on the literacy test because of factors like poverty and the legacy of racism

Those results are disheartening! Every person with a teaching degree in most states has a 4 year University level degree. Yet these tests demonstrate that 36% of 'white', 54% of 'hispanic' and 59% of 'black' persons who spent four years in a University setting managed to graduate without basic literacy skills? That is a horrible indictment of the University system period!