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Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 16:52:09

Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

The detail is interesting and important, as I expand on below. But unless we recognise the central proposition: that the fossil fuel age is coming to an end, and within 15 to 30 years – not 50 to 100 – we risk making serious and damaging mistakes in climate and economic policy, in investment strategy and in geopolitics and defence.

Think of energy like you think about an iPhone

The first and most important driver is the argument I first made early in 2014, in a paper with RenewEconomy editor, Giles Parkinson. For over 100 years, energy markets have been defined by physical resources, supplied in large volumes by large, slow-moving companies developing long-life assets in the context of slow-moving shifts in markets.

The new emerging energy system of renewables and storage is a “technology” business, more akin to information and communications technology; where prices keep falling, quality keeps rising, change is rapid and market disruption is normal and constant.

There is a familiar process that unfolds in markets with technology driven disruptions. I expand on that here in a 2012 piece I wrote in a contribution to Jorgen Randers book “2052 – A Global Forecast” (arguing the inevitability of the point we have now arrived at).

This shift to a “technology” has many implications for energy, but the most profound one is very simple. As a group of technologies, more demand for renewables means lower prices and higher quality constantly evolving for a long time to come. The resources they compete with – coal, oil and gas – follow a different pattern. If demand kept increasing, prices would go up because the newer reserves cost more to develop, such as deep sea oil. They may get cheaper through market shifts, as they have done recently, but they can’t keep getting cheaper and they can never get any better.

In that context, consider this. Renewables are, today, on the verge of being price competitive with fossil fuels – and already are in many situations. So in 10 years, maybe just five, it is a no-brainer that renewables will be significantly cheaper than fossil fuels in most places and will then just keep getting cheaper. And better.

Then we add in electric cars, which are now on the same path – converting a staid, slow moving industry (traditional auto companies like GM) into a disruptive technology-driven one (innovators like Tesla). Electric cars will accelerate the end of fossil fuels by joining with renewables to create a system shift, both directly by using clean power to charge them and indirectly by driving battery costs down to create storage for distributed renewables.


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Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby Pops » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 16:58:12

Does anyone else have the feeling Greame needs a thread just his own where he can post all these?

They are all identical, they all link to some other site, none with any added value provided by g

basically renewable spam
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 17:07:35

Yes they're spam if you don't like the content, which is a common reaction on this board. FFs are finished and their crash may come sooner than anyone thinks.

China, Greece, and the NYSE: Black Swans or Red Flags??

John Mauldin, the man behind Mauldin Economics and author of "Bull's Eye Investing: Targeting Real Returns in a Smoke and Mirrors Market," gave some background on the China crisis. He credited the current problems in Chinese markets to a shift away from the previous top-down command economy to an organic market. "Inevitably, this transition is causing pain for people accustomed to the old ways," he said in his weekly Thoughts from the Frontline blog.


These are not isolated problems, Dent said. "China's bubble burst is much greater than Greece. However, Greece will be a trigger for a chain of defaults from Puerto Rico to Portugal to Illinois—and the first big one in the U.S., the frackers with a $1 trillion industry with over $600 billion in risky or leveraged loans due to default when oil gets back down near $40 or lower. I see $32 per barrel ($32/bbl) in oil in the next year or so and $10–20/bbl by 2023."

Dent recommended investors get out of all bubble assets: stocks, real estate, commodities and higher yield bonds. Get into cash or reliable cash flow positive investments. Wait for this unprecedented global bubble to burst—then the world is your oyster if you have cash. Cash was king in the Great Depression; it will be again in the next several years."


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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 18:37:51

Graeme wrote:Yes they're spam if you don't like the content, which is a common reaction on this board. FFs are finished and their crash may come sooner than anyone thinks.

China, Greece, and the NYSE: Black Swans or Red Flags??

theenergycollective


Since when isn't "self appointed investment newsletter writer / author / prognosticator" predictions spam, Graeme? (Harry Dent had one intelligent thing to say. (I'll summarize here):

demographics matter.

The rest is revenue seeking filler and empty rhetoric.

Give me a break. Pops is right. This type of stuff, plastered around in the quantity you do it, is SPAM.

If I spammed this type of thing (along with all your green "someday this might possibly happen if we wish hard enough" stuff all over a site like this, I'd expect to be banned, and rightfully so.
Last edited by Outcast_Searcher on Mon 13 Jul 2015, 18:40:52, edited 1 time in total.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 18:40:41

Pops wrote:Does anyone else have the feeling Greame needs a thread just his own where he can post all these?

They are all identical, they all link to some other site, none with any added value provided by g

basically renewable spam


I thought Graeme was in charge of the Energy Technology forum, about 80 percent of the threads there are all his posts.
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 19:11:15

What I don't get is how solar and wind is going to replace plastics?
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 19:38:13

Well, that is kind of what I was getting at.

There is a tremendous amount of really, really poor reporting out there. There is an almost total lack of critical systemic thinking.

It runs across the board from the left to the right, from deniers to doomers.
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 20:36:44

Newfie wrote:What I don't get is how solar and wind is going to replace plastics?


Have you seen this?
post347722.html?hilit=Plastic%20corn#p347722
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 20:42:41

Good thing we don't need ff's to make fertilizer or run the tractors or power the factories or heat our homes or....

Actually the "heat our homes, offices, schools, hospitals, etc..." bit is a biggie.
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 22:09:09

Newfie wrote:Good thing we don't need ff's to make fertilizer or run the tractors or power the factories or heat our homes or....

Actually the "heat our homes, offices, schools, hospitals, etc..." bit is a biggie.

[sarc]
Nah, pretty soon (some time in the next 50 years or so) we will flip the Northern Hemisphere back into the Miocene climate with no permanent ice. Who needs heat when you live in a tropical jungle? Palm trees growing in Alaska and Greenland and on the coast of Hudson's Bay....[/sarc]
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Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby C8 » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 22:52:36

Pops wrote:Does anyone else have the feeling Greame needs a thread just his own where he can post all these?

They are all identical, they all link to some other site, none with any added value provided by g

basically renewable spam


It would be helpful if some of the stuff posted had new data, charts, projections, and facts rather than just some blogger's view. Novel and new ideas are more interesting then the same stuff beat over and over again.
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby StarvingLion » Mon 13 Jul 2015, 23:07:38

Actually Graeme is more serious than the US Gov. You have until Thursday to submit your own nano-bullshit:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2015/06 ... challenges

By 2025, the nanotechnology R&D community is challenged to achieve the following:

Increase the five-year survival rates by 50% for the most difficult to treat cancers.
Create devices no bigger than a grain of rice that can sense, compute, and communicate without wires or maintenance for 10 years, enabling an “internet of things” revolution.
Create computer chips that are 100 times faster yet consume less power.
Manufacture atomically-precise materials with fifty times the strength of aluminum at half the weight and the same cost.
Reduce the cost of turning sea water into drinkable water by a factor of four.
Determine the environmental, health, and safety characteristics of a nanomaterial in a month.

What would you propose? Read more about what makes an effective Grand Challenge and how to propose your own Nanotechnology-Inspired Grand Challenges for the Next Decade and comment on these examples here. Responses must be received by July 16, 2015 to be considered.
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 00:30:41

The send last paragraph in the OP is worth quoting:

• In combination these forces will unleash the predictable pattern of technology driven market disruption. The incumbents will stay in denial and fail to respond to what’s coming, despite it being obvious. They will hold on and fight against change as long as possible, but in the end will be wiped out by nimbler, new players without the cultural or asset baggage of the old. There will be an unknown tipping point – I think before 2020 – at which time the momentum will rapidly accelerate.
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby StarvingLion » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 01:41:05

According to this guy, Graeme is doomed...maybe 15 years left to live.

https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comme ... llapse_be/

Better put the renewable toys away and start work on the ray gun.

OMG, it gets even worse...

https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comme ... eat_sheet/

Google gave up on saving the masses with the renewables scam:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/21 ... engineers/

"Koningstein and Fork aren't alone. Whenever somebody with a decent grasp of maths and physics looks into the idea of a fully renewables-powered civilised future for the human race with a reasonably open mind, they normally come to the conclusion that it simply isn't feasible. Merely generating the relatively small proportion of our energy that we consume today in the form of electricity is already an insuperably difficult task for renewables: generating huge amounts more on top to carry out the tasks we do today using fossil-fuelled heat isn't even vaguely plausible."
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby sunweb » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 05:44:09

Magic wands for making renewables without fossil fuels for sale.
Have shared these videos from the manufacturers themselves before:
All the human-made things in our world have an industrial history. Behind the computer, the T-shirt, the vacuum cleaner is an industrial infrastructure fired by energy (fossil fuels mainly). Each component of our car or refrigerator has an industrial history. Mainly unseen and out of mind, this global industrial infrastructure touches every aspect of our lives. It pervades our daily living from the articles it produces, to its effect on the economy and employment, as well as its effects on the environment.
Solar and wind energy collecting devices also have an industrial history. It is important to understand the industrial infrastructure and the environmental results for the components of the solar energy collecting devices so we don’t designate them with false labels such as green, renewable or sustainable.
This is an essay challenging ‘business as usual’. If we teach people that these solar devices are the future of energy without teaching the whole system, we mislead, misinform and create false hopes and beliefs.
I have provided both charts and videos for the solar cells, modules, aluminum from ore, aluminum from recycling, aluminum extrusion, inverters, batteries and copper.
Please note each piece of machinery you see in each of the videos has its own industrial interconnection and history.
http://sunweber.blogspot.com/2015/04/so ... cture.html
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 07:48:29

I think y'all are being a bit too tough on my buddy Graeme. Of course I've taken countless swipes at him. That's the point: if it weren't the critical counterpoints that his posts allow us to make we would just all be sitting around our cyber campfire reminding ourselves just how smart we are. Personally I would much more prefer someone like Graeme trying to bust my chops. And Graeme is a bit different then many of the cornie/nutty posters: sincerity. Almost always taking the wrong angle but always believing his own words.

And above all else Graeme is very rarely rude. IMHO a very nice quality in someone who almost always disagrees with me. LOL.
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Re: Fossil fuels are finished – the rest is just detail

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 14 Jul 2015, 08:09:45

Yes Rocman, y are quite correct. Civil discourse is often missing. It is to be commended.
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