Forks Over Knives

[WildRose]

There's a hint of religious fervor in the way you speak -- humans treat animals "digustingly." By whose measure though? Yours? What is your source for animal rights??? Aren't you anthropomorphizing animals?

I’m an atheist and apolitical. There is no religious fervor in my words. I commented on the movie. I thought the images portrayed inhumane treatment of animals and it disgusted me (if you polled 1000 viewers and you were one of them, I’d guess about 999 would agree with my assessment).

You have to give me RATIONAL reasons for such an extreme philosophy, not emotional / religious / ascetic reasons.

I don't have to give you anything. I'm surely not going to try to explain the strong positions of others. I am not a vegan activist. I'm not even a vegan (I've adopted a predominantly vegan diet for health benefits). If you have read what I posted in this thread, you should know that. Instead, you've made all sorts of assumptions about me that are not correct and then used these false assumptions to rant against vegans. You should ask them all your questions and I suggest that you ask them with respect and listen carefully. You might learn something. If you've cultivated well thought-out positions, maybe they'll learn from you too....

Pretty much my thoughts on this subject, too, Basilboy.

Sixstrings, have you watched Earthlings or Food Inc.? As Basilboy said earlier, it's hard to watch. Sure, vegans can have quite extreme positions on what animals shouldn't be used for, but their reasoning behind it is suffering. It's the suffering the animals have to endure, not only in their deaths but in their lives. And, from what I understand, what vegans are against is the pervasive attitude that because we are man we can impose whatever suffering on other creatures that we want, in order to get what we want, whether it's food, entertainment, etc. The factory meat farms are horrible for animals, and the reason it's evolved into this is because of our exploding human population and because we eat so much meat. Maybe it wouldn't have to be this way if we just ate small amounts of meat once or twice a week? We just go to the store, or sit down at McDonald's, and eat, without a thought about what living creatures endured to provide this food for us. As I said earlier, I treat my garden with much more respect than that. I don't understand how the vegan position could be perceived a religious decision at all - it seems more a matter of conscience to me. Religion often teaches that man has domain over animals, but I don't think all religions would be accepting of the cruelty animals are subjected to.

[pstarr]

Vegetarianism had its heyday back in the 1980's-1990's when the first generation of Baby-Boomer-Babies (BBB) were coming of age. Having grown up in sterile Suburban-Breeding-Pods (SBP), (also known as "homes") they were horrified to learn that BLT's, Micky-D's, Breakfast-Links, Processed-Cheese-Products (PCP (rennert)) (and even filet mignon )were CUT FROM THE BODIES OF CUTE ANIMALS

Having finally turned adult (much delayed event in the Suburban-White-Collar-Worker-Breeding-Colony (SWCWBC), this first generation is just now integrating their horror into wiser shopping/health decisions. Leaving behind childish black/white ideology for the tragic truths of adulthood. Sad. But nice for the animals and human health. We have come to appreciate the necessity of pasture-raised animal-based saturated fats (prabsf), GLA's, omega-3 fatty acids, and vitamin B's. This of course calls into question our entire grain-based nutritional system and all the social/health/environmental consequences of the Modern-Slave-Trade (MST). (That's US))

[babystrangeloop]

Looks like pstarr is desperate for attention again.

[AgentR11]

I'm with pstarr. Yes, we should try to be nice to our food while its wandering around. Failure of some humans to do this well does not disturb me. I'll encourage them to try to do better on the next batch. But getting overly outraged about these failures seems silly.

Some of my earliest memories are of catching / killing, cooking, and eating fish, ducks, and later rabbits. I can't say I did a great job of being humane to my prey at 5 yrs old, but the fish were delicious none the less. Great times.

[pstarr]

Looks like pstarr is desperate for attention again.

I know a f@ckload more about this than you do. Wanna learn? Ask me questions nicely. Otherwise shut up and laugh along with us

[pstarr]

I'm with pstarr. Yes, we should try to be nice to our food while its wandering around. Failure of some humans to do this well does not disturb me. I'll encourage them to try to do better on the next batch. But getting overly outraged about these failures seems silly.

Some of my earliest memories are of catching / killing, cooking, and eating fish, ducks, and later rabbits. I can't say I did a great job of being humane to my prey at 5 yrs old, but the fish were delicious none the less. Great times.

Humans must eat meat. We should do it humanely but we won't because the system is designed to shelter us from them. And them from us. And us from each other. We are also inhumanely caged.

[babystrangeloop]

Looks like pstarr is desperate for attention again.

I know a f@ckload more about this than you do. Wanna learn? Ask me questions nicely. Otherwise shut up and laugh along with us

Sincerely, what are you talking about? Know more about what?

[pstarr]

Looks like pstarr is desperate for attention again.

I know a f@ckload more about this than you do. Wanna learn? Ask me questions nicely. Otherwise shut up and laugh along with us

Sincerely, what are you talking about? Know more about what?

meat and vegans. I am a recovering vegetarian. I used to eat Tofu Pups

[BasilBoy]

hey pstarr....you say that humans must eat meat. Perhaps SOME humans must eat meat, but there are healthy, active, strong vegans out there. Do you consider these latter folk anomalies...?

[pstarr]

hey pstarr....you say that humans must eat meat. Perhaps SOME humans must eat meat, but there are healthy, active, strong vegans out there. Do you consider these latter folk anomalies...?

Not anomalies, just not useful data points. I am not aware that the vegan diet has been studied adequately.

But I am pretty confident it will prove inadequate for long-term health. See above comment on GLA, vitamin B, saturated fats, omega-3. And I am sure that it is an inappropriate insufficient answer to our environmental/ecologic dilemma. And in no way an alternative to our corrupt industrial food system

[WildRose]

hey pstarr....you say that humans must eat meat. Perhaps SOME humans must eat meat, but there are healthy, active, strong vegans out there. Do you consider these latter folk anomalies...?

Not anomalies, just not useful data points. I am not aware that the vegan diet has been studied adequately.

But I am pretty confident it will prove inadequate for long-term health. See above comment on GLA, vitamin B, saturated fats, omega-3. And I am sure that it is an inappropriate insufficient answer to our environmental/ecologic dilemma. And in no way an alternative to our corrupt industrial food system

I'm also not sure how the vegan diet will measure up in the long term, but which diet can we be absolutely sure will provide us with the best health? A meat diet, especially high in red meat, is associated with much higher cholesterol levels, and consequently leads to higher risk of heart disease. Opinions regarding individual dietary components seem to change every couple of years (think margarine vs. butter). Can a diet high in fruits and vegetables, whole grains and plant proteins affect our bodies negatively to the degree that a diet high in animal fats can? In what ways?

Another consideration - if the economy goes to hell, and oil is not readily available for all the animal product farms, how much meat will the average Joe be able to purchase on payday? Maybe it would be wise for us to learn how to prepare more meals with plant proteins?

[pstarr]

I'm also not sure how the vegan diet will measure up in the long term, but which diet can we be absolutely sure will provide us with the best health? A meat diet, especially high in red meat, is associated with much higher cholesterol levels, and consequently leads to higher risk of heart disease.

That, my dear, is a big fat misconception foisted upon us by the ADM, Cargill, General Foods, USDA, and a multitude of others. There will always be a deficit of high quality meat and a over-abundance of starchy material to unload on the unsuspecting American public.

Google "Framingham Heart Study controversy" which was designed (and failed) to correlate saturated fats with heart disease. The largest most comprehensive and respective study ever done of dietary behavior showed that (contrary to expectation) there is zero correlation or causation between heart disease and saturated fat consumption. Or check recent works and meta-study published in the highly respected Journal of Clinical Nutrition

--Saturated fat prevents coronary artery disease? An American paradox or the more recent;

--Meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies evaluating the association of saturated fat with cardiovascular disease.

A meta-analysis of prospective epidemiologic studies showed that there is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD.

Then google "trans fats," made from vegetable oils and foisted on us for decades. Turns out that is the real poison. worse than axle grease. HORRID

Opinions regarding individual dietary components seem to change every couple of years (think margarine vs. butter). Can a diet high in fruits and vegetables, whole grains and plant proteins affect our bodies negatively to the degree that a diet high in animal fats can? In what ways?

yes. study the Metabolic Syndrome.

Another consideration - if the economy goes to hell, and oil is not readily available for all the animal product farms, how much meat will the average Joe be able to purchase on payday? Maybe it would be wise for us to learn how to prepare more meals with plant proteins?

that is a very serious concern. From my personal experience it is a lot easier to run some chickens in the yard then grow and harvest wheat.

[Pops]

Another consideration - if the economy goes to hell, and oil is not readily available for all the animal product farms, how much meat will the average Joe be able to purchase on payday? Maybe it would be wise for us to learn how to prepare more meals with plant proteins?

The reason we traditionally eat ruminant meat is because they eat grass and we can't.

Feeding large amounts of grains to beef cattle only came along the last 40 years or so with really cheap grain. Even today most of the weight on most beef cattle comes from grass, sure, some are grown on feedlots from weaning but most are grown on grass and finished on grain. I have 600# of beef in the freezer that only saw grain as a treat. He is almost as tender as grain fed because I let him hang an extra few days, the taste isn't quite as good but not bad for 58¢ a pound.

Grazing is the best use of a good amount of land.

[pstarr]

yup a common misconception is that cattle diet is grain-based. Some of the largest dairy regions in California are largely grassfed all year. Here in Humbolt the entire cattle industry (meat and dairy) is grass fed, with individuals feeding grain to meat steers for the last two weeks to add some marbling. The amount of grain often depends on frozen winters and scorched summers.

[Pretorian]

Although I was aware of the inhumane and disgusting treatment of animals by humans, I had not seen it portrayed so completely and poignantly as in Earthlings.

There's a hint of religious fervor in the way you speak -- humans treat animals "digustingly." By whose measure though? Yours? What is your source for animal rights??? Aren't you anthropomorphizing animals?

Where do you draw the line? Maybe Wildrose is ok with humane farms, maybe you'd find that disgusting. How do you guys decide this, what is it based on, what gives you the right.

I know the official PETA / vegan position is animals can't be used for anything -- that means half the world's people would starve because they need animal labor to farm. That means blind folks wouldn't be allowed a guide dog. See how silly this gets? I'm not sure how hardcore vegan you are, but if you're towing the Vegan Society line then basically you want to take away other peoples' right to use animals. What gives you that right, to take my rights away?

Homo sapiens has been eating and using other species for hundreds of thousands of years. The cows you see on the farm, they don't even exist in the nature, those were bred by people for that purpose. There is no Elsie the Cow in the wild. I just don't see the moral problem here, we have simbiotic relationships with other species on what do you base your moral objection to that? Again, "vegans" are not for humane farms they are for ceasing all use of animals. Including service dogs for the handicapped, including rats and fruit flies used in research.

Maybe you aren't actually a vegan -- I should back up and ask you, can you eat honey? Would you eat an egg, or a slice of cheesecake? If eaten in moderation there's no health reason why you can't have an egg or a bit of honey. If you are a strict vegan, and you won't touch honey or eggs and you won't wear leather then essentially this is a moral philosophy for you. So explain that to me, how does eating an egg violate a chicken's rights, and also where do chickens derive rights from and who who decides what rights chickens have. I know the answer, of course -- animals only have whatever rights human society gives to them, since rights only exist in the mind of homo sapiens. There are no "rights" in nature.

In the West, we already have laws against animal cruelty -- but if you want to shut down ALL ranches and even organic "humane" farms, if you want to take away my right to eat honey or wear leather shoes or a blind person to have a guide dog -- you need to explain WHY.

EDIT: just to clarify, I'm arguing against he extremes of veganisn -- if you say you're a "vegan" then that's a particular term and there is a Vegan Society and they're against all use of animals. But actually I do care about animals, I recongize it's not rational, but still I care. I hate it that they eat dogs in Asia. To me that's digusting. To those cultures, it's not. Horse meat is taboo for me, just plain wrong, but I think they still eat it in France.

I hate it that they eat primates in Africa, but to them that's their culture. I don't like hunting marine mammals for any reason, but I recognize I have no rational reason to dislike that if they're not endangered -- this is all cultural, what's ok and what's not. So basically vegans want to drag us to the extreme end of animal rights -- no meat eating at all, no eggs, no dairy, no leather, no service dogs, no ox to pull a poor 3rd world farmer's plow, no scientific research on animals.

You have to give me RATIONAL reasons for such an extreme philosophy, not emotional / religious / ascetic reasons.

Wow, you know so many hard words already, Six. No need to anthropomorphize animals. It is not a possible thing to do anyway, since humans are animals.
Obviously those farm animals don't have any rights ( neither do you, but it is a different topic altogether ) however torturing them for 1% off wholesale is not acceptable. I have no problems with killing for food but an animal must have a more or less normal life-- see the damn sky, run around, play, all that. Debeaking , all those factory farms, overcrowding, etc, with organic feed or not, are not acceptable. If somebody will have to go vegan ( or cannibal ) because they won't be able to buy proper meat , well it sucks to be you then.

[Loki]

Ha, look at that, Pretorian has a heart after all. I thoroughly agree, well said.

Pstarr, humans don’t have to eat meat, though I agree that the healthiest diet probably includes some animal products. But these can be limited to dairy and eggs, hopefully humanely raised. Of course, dairy and egg production is almost always done in conjunction with meat production, so ovo-lacto vegetarianism is admittedly a bit of a cop out. I have heard of people letting their spent laying hens die of old age, though

Another consideration - if the economy goes to hell, and oil is not readily available for all the animal product farms, how much meat will the average Joe be able to purchase on payday? Maybe it would be wise for us to learn how to prepare more meals with plant proteins?

I think this is the key point to be taken from this thread. Vegan vs. carnivore is a subject that brings out an irrational militancy that prevents mutual understanding. But if the US standard of living continues its trajectory, the subject may very well be moot for most of us. Poverty means a narrowing of choices. And in most parts of the world, poverty also means fewer animal products.

One reason I like rural poverty. Peasantry doesn’t pay much, but I’ve never eaten so good in my life. Had some of Lola the pig last night and she was delicious---she lived a good life, too, despite being the runt. Homemade mozzarella made from Daisy the cow’s milk was also tasty. And the Russian kale is fantastic this time of year, multiple frosts make it sweet as sugar---and yes, no worries, all our kale is free range.

[pstarr]

Ha, look at that, Pretorian has a heart after all. I thoroughly agree, well said.

Pstarr, humans don’t have to eat meat, though I agree that the healthiest diet probably includes some animal products. But these can be limited to dairy and eggs, hopefully humanely raised. Of course, dairy and egg production is almost always done in conjunction with meat production, so ovo-lacto vegetarianism is admittedly a bit of a cop out. I have heard of people letting their spent laying hens die of old age, though

I don't believe it's possible to get vitamin B and GLA from anywhere else and these are necessary. And like you said lacto/ovo makes no sense unless you believe meat is unhealthy--which it isn't if it is raised naturally without antibiotics, hormones, not in feed lots, etc.

Another consideration - if the economy goes to hell, and oil is not readily available for all the animal product farms, how much meat will the average Joe be able to purchase on payday? Maybe it would be wise for us to learn how to prepare more meals with plant proteins?

I think this is the key point to be taken from this thread. Vegan vs. carnivore is a subject that brings out an irrational militancy that prevents mutual understanding. But if the US standard of living continues its trajectory, the subject may very well be moot for most of us. Poverty means a narrowing of choices. And in most parts of the world, poverty also means fewer animal products.

One reason I like rural poverty. Peasantry doesn’t pay much, but I’ve never eaten so good in my life. Had some of Lola the pig last night and she was delicious---she lived a good life, too, despite being the runt. Homemade mozzarella made from Daisy the cow’s milk was also tasty. And the Russian kale is fantastic this time of year, multiple frosts make it sweet as sugar---and yes, no worries, all our kale is free range.

that is what i am saying. country folk eat well. a little bit of meat. a lot of veggies. and some white bread and sugar to celebrate it all.

[WildRose]

So, on preliminary study of the metabolic syndrome (thanks for that, pstarr, I found it useful and relevant, especially as I am a postmenopausal woman and need to keep this in check), I ran across this description of the Mediterranean diet, which is supposed to be a healthy one. Note, though, that there is an emphasis on fruits and veggies, nuts, grains, beans and seeds, and little red meat is eaten. Wine is good, though

"Mediterranean diet: A diet traditionally followed in Greece, Crete, southern France, and parts of Italy that emphasizes fruits and vegetables, nuts, grains, olive oil (as opposed to butter) and grilled or steamed chicken and seafood (as opposed to red meat). Plus a glass or two of red wine.

To be exact, there is not merely one Mediterranean diet. What is eaten varies significantly from one Mediterranean country to another. There also are major differences in diet between some regions within a country, as in Italy. However, the shared features of what is usually spoken of as the Mediterranean-style diet are as follows:

High consumption of fruits, vegetables, bread and other cereals, potatoes, beans, nuts and seeds;
Olive oil is the key monounsaturated fat source;
Dairy products, fish and poultry are consumed in low to moderate amounts;
Little red meat is eaten;
Eggs are eaten zero to four times a week; and
Wine is drunk in moderate (or low) amounts.

Many studies indicate that a Mediterranean diet may play an important role in the prevention of coronary artery heart disease. A Mediterranean-style diet also appears to help avoid the metabolic syndrome (prediabetes) and reduce the chances that a person will die sooner rather than later."


I would need to eat more fish and olive oil to bring my diet in line with this, and I'm assuming it's very low in sugar, which I could stand to cut down on. And I could have more wine.

I'll stick to my guns about the mistreatment of animals, though. I was still a kid living with my parents when vegetarianism first became popular, and I was raised on meat. I was taught that people are more important than animals and that we should use them as we see fit. It's only been in the last several years that I've become more aware of the animal farm practices (thanks in large part to my dear daughter, who is an advocate for those who cannot stick up for themselves).

Again, anyone interested in learning more, watch the documentary Earthlings and/or Food Inc. Food Inc. does present some people who farm animals in a humane way.

Link re: Mediterranean diet below:

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art ... ekey=39284

[BasilBoy]

...though I agree that the healthiest diet probably includes some animal products.

May I ask why you (and others) have drawn such a conclusion?

The Nazis confiscated Norway's animal stock around 1940 and Norwegians were forced to eat a plant-based diet. During that time, cardiovascular disease dropped rather dramatically. When the war ended, meat and dairy consumption returned to what it was and cardiovascular disease went back up.

I'd like to suggest to everyone who has posted here to actually watch the movie and read The China Study. You may have different thoughts about nutrition afterwards. I'm not easily sold, but I was sold...

[pstarr]

...though I agree that the healthiest diet probably includes some animal products.

May I ask why you (and others) have drawn such a conclusion?

The Nazis confiscated Norway's animal stock around 1940 and Norwegians were forced to eat a plant-based diet. During that time, cardiovascular disease dropped rather dramatically. When the war ended, meat and dairy consumption returned to what it was and cardiovascular disease went back up.

I'd like to suggest to everyone who has posted here to actually watch the movie and read The China Study. You may have different thoughts about nutrition afterwards. I'm not easily sold, but I was sold...

Here is a review of the Forks Over Knives by Denise Minger

She also considers Colin Campbell's China Study analysis to be bogus. (Notice I said his analysis. The data is good but he spins it.) I couldn't agree more.

Who are you going to believe? The bitter old vegan or;

China Study Debunked