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Forks Over Knives

A forum to either submit your own review of a book, video or audio interview, or to post reviews by others.

Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 18:55:33

Quinny wrote:I have suffered from catarrh since my teens.

In my late teens I found a 'cure'. It was based on chinese medicine and a very strict almost vegan diet with low sugar and carbs and no dairy producsts and very little meat/fish.

It cured the catarrh but I love food and the regime made me miserable, I couldn't have lived my life under such a regime.

So I now offend people with occasional grolching sounds and can't eat chocolate without feeling a bit sick. WTF. :)

Have you experienced any symptoms of catarrh since you dropped the vegan regime? Was the source of your misery solely physiological or was there also a psychological component? I've only been on a vegan diet a month and not strict...so I don't have a firsthand, long term perspective.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby WildRose » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 21:43:00

Sixstrings wrote:Getting back to basics here..

What is the point of veganism?

Why can't it be a lifestyle of just a little bit of meat. There's nothing wrong with eating some meat. What I don't get is the strictness of veganism, they won't even allow for a morsel of meat. And most perplexing, the ban on eggs and dairy. You can't even have a little bit.

What's the point? It must be an ascetic thing and not about heatlh, there's nothing unhealthy about at least one egg or a bit of apple pie now and then. Or is the issue that if you have even a tiny taste of bacon then you'd go off the wagon so you can't touch meat at all?

In general, there really is no bad food. The problem is *too much* food. If anyone thinks an apple pie or a hard boiled egg is intrinsically bad, like they can't even have a bite it's so bad, I'm sorry but that sounds like an eating disorder.


I've known people who eat a vegan diet and are, you could say, somewhat uppity or even militant in their attitude. But what I've learned from other vegans is that they will not eat meat because of the way animals are farmed to produce it. The animals' living conditions, the ways they are abused, etc. is quite disgusting and horrific in some cases, and many people refuse to support the industry because of it. There is a certain dissociation we have, generally, when it comes to the meat on our plate and what all happened to get it there. When I think of how I tend my veggie garden (plant the seeds, water, weed, put in supports for my plants, and on...) my plants are treated with much more respect than countless animals are. If you watch the documentary Earthlings, you can glean some insight into why some vegans are so strongly opposed to eating animals.

http://www.earthlings.com/
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby WildRose » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 22:08:11

pstarr wrote:I know how animals are farmed to produce meat. Some is awful. Some is nice. I visited a friends sheep farm yesterday. The animals are invested with dignity, care, and better medical treatment than lots of people. The lambs are slaughtered quickly and humanely. Much nicer than having their throats ripped out by a coyote while still alive. It is become much more convenient to find decently raised livestock. It cost more. Doing the right thing often does.

I am sorry I entered this debate late. There is so much misinformation regarding farm practices, diets, paleontology and evolution. I may weigh in. may not.


Yes, there are many farmers who both give their animals a decent life and slaughter them humanely. There are examples of this in the Earthlings documentary as well, including people who have farms with free-run chickens. Some vegan people will tell you that they have no problem with farmers who raise animals for food in a humane way, and they have no objections to people hunting animals to survive. But it's the mass-produced, inhumane practices they are so much against.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby WildRose » Mon 05 Mar 2012, 22:34:36

WildRose wrote:
pstarr wrote:I know how animals are farmed to produce meat. Some is awful. Some is nice. I visited a friends sheep farm yesterday. The animals are invested with dignity, care, and better medical treatment than lots of people. The lambs are slaughtered quickly and humanely. Much nicer than having their throats ripped out by a coyote while still alive. It is become much more convenient to find decently raised livestock. It cost more. Doing the right thing often does.

I am sorry I entered this debate late. There is so much misinformation regarding farm practices, diets, paleontology and evolution. I may weigh in. may not.


Yes, there are many farmers who both give their animals a decent life and slaughter them humanely. There are examples of this in the Earthlings documentary as well, including people who have farms with free-run chickens. Some vegan people will tell you that they have no problem with farmers who raise animals for food in a humane way, and they have no objections to people hunting animals to survive. But it's the mass-produced, inhumane practices they are so much against.


Sorry, everyone, just realized I confused Earthlings with the documentary Food Inc. One of my blonde moments! Food Inc. has the footage on free-run chicken farms. Earthlings is known as the "vegan-maker". Both are very good and I highly recommend viewing them.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Tue 06 Mar 2012, 01:20:27

WildRose wrote:If you watch the documentary Earthlings, you can glean some insight into why some vegans are so strongly opposed to eating animals.

Thanks Wild. Although I was aware of the inhumane and disgusting treatment of animals by humans, I had not seen it portrayed so completely and poignantly as in Earthlings. It was not easy to watch...
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 06 Mar 2012, 03:31:25

BasilBoy wrote:Although I was aware of the inhumane and disgusting treatment of animals by humans, I had not seen it portrayed so completely and poignantly as in Earthlings.


There's a hint of religious fervor in the way you speak -- humans treat animals "digustingly." By whose measure though? Yours? What is your source for animal rights??? Aren't you anthropomorphizing animals?

Where do you draw the line? Maybe Wildrose is ok with humane farms, maybe you'd find that disgusting. How do you guys decide this, what is it based on, what gives you the right.

I know the official PETA / vegan position is animals can't be used for anything -- that means half the world's people would starve because they need animal labor to farm. That means blind folks wouldn't be allowed a guide dog. See how silly this gets? I'm not sure how hardcore vegan you are, but if you're towing the Vegan Society line then basically you want to take away other peoples' right to use animals. What gives you that right, to take my rights away?

Homo sapiens has been eating and using other species for hundreds of thousands of years. The cows you see on the farm, they don't even exist in the nature, those were bred by people for that purpose. There is no Elsie the Cow in the wild. I just don't see the moral problem here, we have simbiotic relationships with other species on what do you base your moral objection to that? Again, "vegans" are not for humane farms they are for ceasing all use of animals. Including service dogs for the handicapped, including rats and fruit flies used in research.

Maybe you aren't actually a vegan -- I should back up and ask you, can you eat honey? Would you eat an egg, or a slice of cheesecake? If eaten in moderation there's no health reason why you can't have an egg or a bit of honey. If you are a strict vegan, and you won't touch honey or eggs and you won't wear leather then essentially this is a moral philosophy for you. So explain that to me, how does eating an egg violate a chicken's rights, and also where do chickens derive rights from and who who decides what rights chickens have. I know the answer, of course -- animals only have whatever rights human society gives to them, since rights only exist in the mind of homo sapiens. There are no "rights" in nature.

In the West, we already have laws against animal cruelty -- but if you want to shut down ALL ranches and even organic "humane" farms, if you want to take away my right to eat honey or wear leather shoes or a blind person to have a guide dog -- you need to explain WHY.

EDIT: just to clarify, I'm arguing against he extremes of veganisn -- if you say you're a "vegan" then that's a particular term and there is a Vegan Society and they're against all use of animals. But actually I do care about animals, I recongize it's not rational, but still I care. I hate it that they eat dogs in Asia. To me that's digusting. To those cultures, it's not. Horse meat is taboo for me, just plain wrong, but I think they still eat it in France.

I hate it that they eat primates in Africa, but to them that's their culture. I don't like hunting marine mammals for any reason, but I recognize I have no rational reason to dislike that if they're not endangered -- this is all cultural, what's ok and what's not. So basically vegans want to drag us to the extreme end of animal rights -- no meat eating at all, no eggs, no dairy, no leather, no service dogs, no ox to pull a poor 3rd world farmer's plow, no scientific research on animals.

You have to give me RATIONAL reasons for such an extreme philosophy, not emotional / religious / ascetic reasons.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 06 Mar 2012, 04:08:48

From the Vegan Society website:

Companion and Working Animals

Question: Are vegans against horse racing and horse riding?

Answer: Vegans oppose all forms of exploitation of animals. Each situation needs to be carefully considered to see if this applies. Most vegans would oppose the use of leather saddles and bridles.

Question: Are vegans against keeping companion animals?

Answer: The Vegan Society cannot condone commercial animal breeding, nor the huge pet-food industry - which supports the meat industry. However, many vegans share their homes with rescued animals. This saves the animals from death, and provides the humans with companionship. Some vegans decide not to have companion animals at all.

Question: Can companion animals be vegan?

Answer: Dogs can be fully nourished by a well-balanced vegan diet. There are several complete vegan dog foods on the market, but watch out for animal-derived Vitamin D3. Cats need the amino acid taurine, vitamin A and arachidonic acid in their food. You may be able to order Vegecat and Vegekit, vet-approved animal-free supplements to added to a balanced vegan diet to meet the needs of cats. Some vegans allow their cats to eat meat.
http://www.vegansociety.com/resources/tricky-questions/companion-and-working-animals.aspx


See this is a LOT like religion. ^^ It's like the Catholic Church, handing down what's allowed and what's not, it's all fungible and subject to dogmatic change, and it's all silly. I guess they imply you can maybe ride a horse, but don't use a leather saddle.

They say you can have a dog, but apparently you should be feeding this carnivore a "vegan diet." :roll: I just recently started buying better quality dog food, lady at Pet Smart told me to look for MEAT as the first ingredient not frickin' corn. I gotta tell you, my dog is happier now and I feel guilty for having fed her the cheap kibble for so long. If you care about your dog feed it meat. It's a carnivore. Don't apply your own dietary quirks to your dog.

Also, I see vegans can't wear wool:

As with other industries where animals are raised for a profit, the interests of the animals used in the wool industry are rarely considered. Flocks usually consist of thousands of sheep, and individual attention to their needs is virtually impossible.
http://www.peta.org/about/faq/Whats-wrong-with-wearing-wool.aspx


What kind of "individual attention" does a sheep need? In the wild they wouldn't get any human attention at all. This is just all ridiculous, if you ban large scale sheep ranching then nobody could afford to wear wool, why should humans go cold because it's somehow immoral for sheep to be in a large flock?

I'm done with this topic. Veganism and PETA is a first worlder upper percentile obsession -- this doesn't even apply to most of the world and it never will. A rural 3rd worlder is never going to feel guilty for eating an egg or a bit of meat or wearing wool to keep warm.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby Quinny » Tue 06 Mar 2012, 04:48:43

I think you missed my point. I lasted on the 'cure' (which BTW did work after about a fortnight - catarrh seemed to just disappear) about 3 months. Missed the lifestyle and flavours (meat mainly) too much,and felt I was on a survival diet with hunger pangs a lot of the time.

I did learn the main culprits and cut them out most of the time, so I very rarely have cereals, and my porridge is always made with water. Cow's milk is so much worse than other dairy products, but funnily cheese doesn't seem to cause a major problem.

I still suffer, but nowhere near as much as I used to, but I have also moved to somewhere with a drier climate near the sea (only 50 miles) which has always helped.

BasilBoy wrote:
Quinny wrote:I have suffered from catarrh since my teens.

In my late teens I found a 'cure'. It was based on chinese medicine and a very strict almost vegan diet with low sugar and carbs and no dairy producsts and very little meat/fish.

It cured the catarrh but I love food and the regime made me miserable, I couldn't have lived my life under such a regime.

So I now offend people with occasional grolching sounds and can't eat chocolate without feeling a bit sick. WTF. :)

Have you experienced any symptoms of catarrh since you dropped the vegan regime? Was the source of your misery solely physiological or was there also a psychological component? I've only been on a vegan diet a month and not strict...so I don't have a firsthand, long term perspective.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Tue 06 Mar 2012, 12:14:05

Sixstrings wrote:There's a hint of religious fervor in the way you speak -- humans treat animals "digustingly." By whose measure though? Yours? What is your source for animal rights??? Aren't you anthropomorphizing animals?

I’m an atheist and apolitical. There is no religious fervor in my words. I commented on the movie. I thought the images portrayed inhumane treatment of animals and it disgusted me (if you polled 1000 viewers and you were one of them, I’d guess about 999 would agree with my assessment).

Sixstrings wrote:You have to give me RATIONAL reasons for such an extreme philosophy, not emotional / religious / ascetic reasons.

I don't have to give you anything. I'm surely not going to try to explain the strong positions of others. I am not a vegan activist. I'm not even a vegan (I've adopted a predominantly vegan diet for health benefits). If you have read what I posted in this thread, you should know that. Instead, you've made all sorts of assumptions about me that are not correct and then used these false assumptions to rant against vegans. You should ask them all your questions and I suggest that you ask them with respect and listen carefully. You might learn something. If you've cultivated well thought-out positions, maybe they'll learn from you too....
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby WildRose » Tue 06 Mar 2012, 13:24:50

BasilBoy wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:There's a hint of religious fervor in the way you speak -- humans treat animals "digustingly." By whose measure though? Yours? What is your source for animal rights??? Aren't you anthropomorphizing animals?

I’m an atheist and apolitical. There is no religious fervor in my words. I commented on the movie. I thought the images portrayed inhumane treatment of animals and it disgusted me (if you polled 1000 viewers and you were one of them, I’d guess about 999 would agree with my assessment).

Sixstrings wrote:You have to give me RATIONAL reasons for such an extreme philosophy, not emotional / religious / ascetic reasons.

I don't have to give you anything. I'm surely not going to try to explain the strong positions of others. I am not a vegan activist. I'm not even a vegan (I've adopted a predominantly vegan diet for health benefits). If you have read what I posted in this thread, you should know that. Instead, you've made all sorts of assumptions about me that are not correct and then used these false assumptions to rant against vegans. You should ask them all your questions and I suggest that you ask them with respect and listen carefully. You might learn something. If you've cultivated well thought-out positions, maybe they'll learn from you too....


Pretty much my thoughts on this subject, too, Basilboy.

Sixstrings, have you watched Earthlings or Food Inc.? As Basilboy said earlier, it's hard to watch. Sure, vegans can have quite extreme positions on what animals shouldn't be used for, but their reasoning behind it is suffering. It's the suffering the animals have to endure, not only in their deaths but in their lives. And, from what I understand, what vegans are against is the pervasive attitude that because we are man we can impose whatever suffering on other creatures that we want, in order to get what we want, whether it's food, entertainment, etc. The factory meat farms are horrible for animals, and the reason it's evolved into this is because of our exploding human population and because we eat so much meat. Maybe it wouldn't have to be this way if we just ate small amounts of meat once or twice a week? We just go to the store, or sit down at McDonald's, and eat, without a thought about what living creatures endured to provide this food for us. As I said earlier, I treat my garden with much more respect than that. I don't understand how the vegan position could be perceived a religious decision at all - it seems more a matter of conscience to me. Religion often teaches that man has domain over animals, but I don't think all religions would be accepting of the cruelty animals are subjected to.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby babystrangeloop » Tue 06 Mar 2012, 16:48:54

Looks like pstarr is desperate for attention again.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 06 Mar 2012, 17:08:57

I'm with pstarr. Yes, we should try to be nice to our food while its wandering around. Failure of some humans to do this well does not disturb me. I'll encourage them to try to do better on the next batch. But getting overly outraged about these failures seems silly.

Some of my earliest memories are of catching / killing, cooking, and eating fish, ducks, and later rabbits. I can't say I did a great job of being humane to my prey at 5 yrs old, but the fish were delicious none the less. Great times.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby babystrangeloop » Tue 06 Mar 2012, 17:25:35

pstarr wrote:
babystrangeloop wrote:Looks like pstarr is desperate for attention again.
I know a f@ckload more about this than you do. Wanna learn? Ask me questions nicely. Otherwise shut up and laugh along with us :)

Sincerely, what are you talking about? Know more about what?
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Tue 06 Mar 2012, 17:39:29

hey pstarr....you say that humans must eat meat. Perhaps SOME humans must eat meat, but there are healthy, active, strong vegans out there. Do you consider these latter folk anomalies...?
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