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Forks Over Knives

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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 03 Mar 2012, 23:28:31

This whole debate is silly.

Being an omnivore is a survival advantage, thank you evolution my food options are doubled. As an omnivore I could survive on just veggies if that's all there is, or meat if that's all there is, or a combo of both. Of course we can't digest grass, but we don't need to because we can eat the animals eating the grass -- so there was never a natural selection pressure for us to eat grass.

This is science, we are the product of natural selection, it's no accident we're omnivores.

And lastly.. the Dalai Lama himself eats meat. Even the Buddha ate meat.

Only argument in favor here may be health benefits, but if you notice strict vegans don't look too healthy. I think people need a little meat, the Dalai Lama says his doctor told him he needs to eat meat so I why should I feel guilty.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Sat 03 Mar 2012, 23:33:28

Sixstrings wrote:This whole debate is silly.

..then why participate in it? Diet is one of the most fundamental variables to our well being and hardly silly

Sixstrings wrote:Being an omnivore is a survival advantage...

Being an omnivore WAS a survival advantage.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 03 Mar 2012, 23:57:50

BasilBoy wrote:[
Sixstrings wrote:Being an omnivore is a survival advantage...

Being an omnivore WAS a survival advantage.

And what is the great thing you think has changed??
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 00:04:43

vtsnowedin wrote:
BasilBoy wrote:[
Sixstrings wrote:Being an omnivore is a survival advantage...

Being an omnivore WAS a survival advantage.

And what is the great thing you think has changed??

We have an abundance of food compared to our distant ancestors. They ate whatever they could get their hands on to survive. Also, their food was not industrialized. They weren't hunting down grain-fed, hormone-riddled cows...
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby thuja » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 00:16:49

Basil - I watched Forks over Knives and it had a profound effect on my household. We went from being everyday meat eaters to being once a week meat eaters.

I'd recommend the book "Thrive" by Brendan Brazier. He's a vegan triathlete and his book is pretty compelling. His recipes are great too- really focused on using the most nutrient dense foods such as flax, hemp, nuts, seeds, supergreens along with fruits and veggies. The recipes are great...
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 00:33:49

BasilBoy wrote:..then why participate in it? Diet is one of the most fundamental variables to our well being and hardly silly


Well it's just my opinion. Here's why I think veganism is "silly:"

1. There's an obsessive nature to this lifestyle. I honestly wonder what it's all about, is it really about the animals / planet or is it about the person needing something to obsess over because they're otherwise very comfy upper percentile first worlders with nothing else to worry about.

Take a look around a Whole Foods store. You won't see any poor folk. For one thing they can't afford to shop there, which leads to point 2..

2. Veganism seems rather expensive to me. And time-consuming. Workin' folk are over at Walmart where they can afford to shop, and they buy meat. Workin' folk don't have time for exotic lentil and tofu curd soup recipes.

Also food is culture. You can't expect people to drop their culture -- this goes back thousands of years. Frankly if we all switch over to sprouts and tofu that would be a massive cultural loss. And bacon tastes great. Also pastrami, and reuben sandwiches, and Czech kielbasa, and Spanish pork, and Hungarian goulash.. the list is endless, food is art but I guess you want to just throw away the world's food heritage.

3. The vegan movement strikes me as very militant, intolerant, rigid, and dogmatic. Vegans also appeal to emotion a lot, there's more emotion than reason in their message. Which leads to point 4..

4. It's not natural for people to feel guilty about eating meat. It's just not. Therefore, veganism is really an expression of an obsessive disorder -- just my opinion, this amount of obsessing looks like an eating disorder.

Cultures that don't eat meat never had it to begin with, it wasn't because they felt guilty over it.

5. Vegans are so extreme, so militant, they don't want us to even USE animals. To a vegan, it's morally wrong to eat an egg even if you have your own hen and take good care of it. To a vegan, it's morally wrong to drink a cow's milk even though a dairy cow wouldn't be alive if not for us drinking its milk -- these are simbiotic relationships, that's part of nature. We do as much for the survival of the bovine species as they do for ours.

Sixstrings wrote:Being an omnivore is a survival advantage...


Maximum food choice will always be a survival advantage. Would you starve as a vegan if there were only meat available? That would be an eating disorder, to irrationally refuse food.

However I know where you're going here, you're thinking globally, survival as in the species. But let me ask you this, let's say the world switches over to veggies -- we'll still have an overpopulation problem, if it's true that plants are so much more efficient then we'll just wind up with even more global population so how is this a solution for anything?
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 00:55:07

BasilBoy wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
BasilBoy wrote:[
Sixstrings wrote:Being an omnivore is a survival advantage...

Being an omnivore WAS a survival advantage.

And what is the great thing you think has changed??

We have an abundance of food compared to our distant ancestors. They ate whatever they could get their hands on to survive. Also, their food was not industrialized. They weren't hunting down grain-fed, hormone-riddled cows...

We might have an abundance of food today thanks to industrialised agriculture,but will we in a few years time?
Where does your tofu ,tamari,agave syrup,lecithin,wakami,miso and molasses come from?
Where do your grains and nuts come from?
and
I don't eat industrialised food
My Cattle is grass feed free range and organic, so is my lamb,chicken and pork and my fish is from the great barrier reef which is pretty clean.
My competitive survival advantage will still depend on my ability to eat protein kangaroos, wallabies,cockatoos,brush turkeys,wild pigs,wild ducks,wild rabbits and hares,snakes and fish
It will also include legumes vegetables and grains and if the local dairy survives and the local farmers still grow beef, pork,lamb,goats,ducks,geese,turkey,pheasants and chickens It will include that too.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 01:13:12

Gonna say this more simply..

If we don't have cattle and people eat the grain / corn that the cows currently consume..

That just results in greater food efficiency..

Which means an even larger human population. Nothing is solved.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 01:21:47

Sixstrings wrote:Well it's just my opinion.

Do you really think opinions are relevant when it comes to this stuff?

Sixstrings wrote:1. There's an obsessive nature to this lifestyle. I honestly wonder what it's all about, is it really about the animals / planet or is it about the person needing something to obsess over because they're otherwise very comfy upper percentile first worlders with nothing else to worry about.

Some vegans are obsessive, I agree. Some meat eaters are obsessive. Some motorcycle drivers are obsessive. I personally don't know any obsessive vegans. I've been eating a predominantly whole food, vegan diet for about a month but have eaten fish on two occasions, a small amount of chicken on another, and a tiny bit of cheese...hardly obsessive.

Sixstrings wrote:Take a look around a Whole Foods store. You won't see any poor folk. For one thing they can't afford to shop there, which leads to point 2..

2. Veganism seems rather expensive to me. And time-consuming. Workin' folk are over at Walmart where they can afford to shop, and they buy meat. Workin' folk don't have time for exotic lentil and tofu curd soup recipes.

The price of healthier food costs more, yes. However, the costs are much lower. You don't see the costs of the food at Walmart...all the subsidies, all the health care costs, etc. It's a shame that we have two food supplies...a healthy one for wealthy folk and junk for poor folk. In case you haven't noticed, there is a correlation between income and obesity.

Sixstrings wrote:Also food is culture. You can't expect people to drop their culture -- this goes back thousands of years.

Yes, I agree...this is very important. My father was Italian and I've been to Italy and food has always been a huge part of my life. I've just made some adjustments. I haven't dropped it...

Sixstrings wrote:3. The vegan movement strikes me as very militant, intolerant, rigid, and dogmatic. Vegans also appeal to emotion a lot, there's more emotion than reason in their message.

Well, perhaps you've run into some real jerks who are vegans. I really don't know much about the vegan movement. I'm just trying it and solely for health benefits, not to make a statement. I'm not militant at all about it. If you read this thread, I think one could argue it's the meat eaters that are militant. I just share information with others. If they want to ignore it, that's fine. We live among a very ignorant people so I have to accept the fact that many simply don't want to learn anything. They'd rather hold onto their own beliefs.

Sixstrings wrote:Maximum food choice will always be a survival advantage. Would you starve as a vegan if there were only meat available? That would be an eating disorder, to irrationally refuse food

I can agree with maximum food choice being a survival advantage. I would argue that actually choosing the healthiest food from that supply would increase one's survival. No, I would not starve if there was only meat available. I'm concerned about my health and well being and death ranks pretty low on that scale...
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 01:25:22

thuja wrote:Basil - I watched Forks over Knives and it had a profound effect on my household. We went from being everyday meat eaters to being once a week meat eaters.

I'd recommend the book "Thrive" by Brendan Brazier. He's a vegan triathlete and his book is pretty compelling. His recipes are great too- really focused on using the most nutrient dense foods such as flax, hemp, nuts, seeds, supergreens along with fruits and veggies. The recipes are great...

Yes, it's quite profound. I never in a million years thought I'd ever go this route. I guess it's all part of the paradigm shift. Thanks for the recommendation...
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 01:55:12

Humans succeeded by eating whatever's available. We're just big cockroaches.

If I had the choice of depriving myself my whole life in hopes of possibly adding an extra six months to the worst part of my life, I think I'll just have an extra slice of pie instead.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby BasilBoy » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 02:16:27

PrestonSturges wrote:If I had the choice of depriving myself my whole life in hopes of possibly adding an extra six months to the worst part of my life, I think I'll just have an extra slice of pie instead.

You're already depriving yourself if you're eating what most eat. I have given up nothing by going vegan. Instead, a whole new world of food has opened and it's MUCH better than the other crap. Also, I'm not sure why everyone thinks a vegan diet has to mean absolutely no meat. I'm sure there are some that won't let one molecule of animal product near their mouth. However, I would guess there are far more that will dabble is a nice piece of salmon or a fine cheese every once in a while. Furthermore, why the irrelevant, arbitrary figure of six months? What if it was 15 years...? You don't think people die of heart attacks at age 65?
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 02:35:23

Bottom line statistically is it isnt 15 years its only a few years.
What are the suicide rates of a vegan ?
My good friend was a vegan and suffered massively from depression,he took up eating meat and it helped.
http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/depression.html
and bottom line is how do you get your vegan dietary needs in a Post PO future if TSHTF ?
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 02:47:10

I was vegan for 15 years, without serious health implications. I started eating some meat after moving to remote Australia where there were very few realistic protein or calorie sources. Since then I married a Filipina who has not gone a day in her life without something dying to provide her sustenance.

Without getting into the semantics, there is plenty of statisical evidence that moves in this direction alleviate many of the problems due to peak oil. Majorly due to the energy intensiveness of farming animals for mass consumption. Price rationing will reduce the amount of meat people eat everywhere over time, regardless.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 03:34:22

Our family has absurdly long life spans, and even in county histories, a couple of my direct ancestors were known for being the oldest person in the township. Given projected declines in living standards, I expect to euthanize myself somewhere around the age of 88 and skip the last 7 years.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 04:49:10

PrestonSturges wrote:Humans succeeded by eating whatever's available. We're just big cockroaches.

If I had the choice of depriving myself my whole life in hopes of possibly adding an extra six months to the worst part of my life, I think I'll just have an extra slice of pie instead.


Well said Preston.

Let's not forget veganism is more than meat, it's about not taking advantage of animals in any way. So no leather. Worse, no dairy no eggs -- there goes the entirety of French cuisine, and most baking since you know everything needs eggs for crying out loud.

I can't imagine a world without Cuban sandwiches.. and ribeye steak.. ribs.. bacon.. pork chops.. biscuits and sausage gravy.. no more omelettes, no hard hard boiled eggs on my salad.. I could actually give up pies and cake but come on, you need eggs for bread and croissants and all that good stuff.

Vegans want to take all the fun out of life, we'd be stuck eating beans and drinking soy milk with the female hormones in it and wearing hemp shoes.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 05:07:50

Vegans and vegetarians think we should consume *even more soy* than we currently do -- problem is we're already eating too much soy and it's feminizing men:

Unfortunately, when you eat or drink a lot of soy stuff, you’re also getting substantial quantities of estrogens.

Estrogens are female hormones. If you’re a woman, you’re flooding your system with a substance it can’t handle in surplus. If you’re a man, you’re suppressing your masculinity and stimulating your “female side,” physically and mentally.

In fetal development, the default is being female. All humans (even in old age) tend toward femininity. The main thing that keeps men from diverging into the female pattern is testosterone, and testosterone is suppressed by an excess of estrogen.

If you’re a grownup, you’re already developed, and you’re able to fight off some of the damaging effects of soy. Babies aren’t so fortunate. Research is now showing that when you feed your baby soy formula, you’re giving him or her the equivalent of five birth control pills a day. A baby’s endocrine system just can’t cope with that kind of massive assault, so some damage is inevitable. At the extreme, the damage can be fatal.
http://www.wnd.com/2006/12/39253/
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 07:05:11

My wife being tiny and Asian, me coming from Nordic stock mostly, she couldn't cope with either the births or breastfeeding our offspring.
Both were supplementary fed for 6 weeks then bottle only for 5 to 6 months before blending in other stuff. The $18 kilo ($10 pound) formula recommended by every doctor we have had anything to do with is based on soy, as are all the top brands. My daughters are both strong as Mallee bulls, my 10 month old is starting to walk and talk while my 2.5 year old speaks 3 languages at 4 to 5 year old level.
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 11:18:31

SeaGypsy wrote:My wife being tiny and Asian, me coming from Nordic stock mostly, she couldn't cope with either the births or breastfeeding our offspring.
I see Nordic women in two distinct varieties - the lightly built Finnish types and the much more robust Viking breeding valkyries (Norwegian?).
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Re: Forks Over Knives

Unread postby bromius » Sun 04 Mar 2012, 13:24:51

Sixstrings wrote:Gonna say this more simply..

If we don't have cattle and people eat the grain / corn that the cows currently consume..

That just results in greater food efficiency..

Which means an even larger human population. Nothing is solved.


Jevon's paradox applied to food.
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