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Fission-Fusion Design

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Tikib » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 07:16:27

Attached is a prototype fission-fusion energy idea.

Its basically a repeating hydrogen bomb which would be surrounded by an energy recovery system (molten salt/water/etc)

You could probably generate an eroi of about 100 from it.
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby PEAKINT » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 11:16:21

Tikib wrote:Attached is a prototype fission-fusion energy idea.

Its basically a repeating hydrogen bomb which would be surrounded by an energy recovery system (molten salt/water/etc)

You could probably generate an eroi of about 100 from it.


let me get something right, our sun is basically an exploding mega hydrogen bomb that has been exploding for the past 5 billion years.

it is so huge that its gravity is its own containment field

but what is to keep some nation like US/China/Russia from creating a doomsday hbomb, barred underground, with enough h stuff to blow up the entire earth?

is it a containment issue? TSAR was the biggest but it wasn't underground....
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 12:18:08

PEAKINT wrote:let me get something right, our sun is basically an exploding mega hydrogen bomb that has been exploding for the past 5 billion years.

it is so huge that its gravity is its own containment field

but what is to keep some nation like US/China/Russia from creating a doomsday hbomb, barred underground, with enough h stuff to blow up the entire earth?

is it a containment issue? TSAR was the biggest but it wasn't underground....


No desire to commit planetary suicide? Why would any sane person design and build a device intended only to be an artificial extinction level event?
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby PEAKINT » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 12:29:20

Tanada wrote:
PEAKINT wrote:let me get something right, our sun is basically an exploding mega hydrogen bomb that has been exploding for the past 5 billion years.

it is so huge that its gravity is its own containment field

but what is to keep some nation like US/China/Russia from creating a doomsday hbomb, barred underground, with enough h stuff to blow up the entire earth?

is it a containment issue? TSAR was the biggest but it wasn't underground....


No desire to commit planetary suicide? Why would any sane person design and build a device intended only to be an artificial extinction level event?



A foolproof "dead hand" device; a true MAD deterrence against any country attempting to do a first strike decapitation of any other country.
I'm not talking "skynet", but something on par with the intelligence of a smart human (IBM bluebrain project but completely) with "AI" ability to think on its own but hardcoded for one mission of "going off" if any superpower nation (G8, BRIC, etc) decides to use nukes it will set it off.... so unlike the primitive USSR 'perimeter' this would be a smart version of dead hand, and once it place it cannot be removed, it will be a permanent self contained AI automated process. Any attempts at disarming it will trigger it off.

This will absolutely deter every nation from doing so. No one would even be tempted to use nukes again.
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 13:07:57

PEAKINT wrote:
Tanada wrote:
PEAKINT wrote:let me get something right, our sun is basically an exploding mega hydrogen bomb that has been exploding for the past 5 billion years.

it is so huge that its gravity is its own containment field

but what is to keep some nation like US/China/Russia from creating a doomsday hbomb, barred underground, with enough h stuff to blow up the entire earth?

is it a containment issue? TSAR was the biggest but it wasn't underground....


No desire to commit planetary suicide? Why would any sane person design and build a device intended only to be an artificial extinction level event?



A foolproof "dead hand" device; a true MAD deterrence against any country attempting to do a first strike decapitation of any other country.
I'm not talking "skynet", but something on par with the intelligence of a smart human (IBM bluebrain project but completely) with "AI" ability to think on its own but hardcoded for one mission of "going off" if any superpower nation (G8, BRIC, etc) decides to use nukes it will set it off.... so unlike the primitive USSR 'perimeter' this would be a smart version of dead hand, and once it place it cannot be removed, it will be a permanent self contained AI automated process. Any attempts at disarming it will trigger it off.

This will absolutely deter every nation from doing so. No one would even be tempted to use nukes again.


That is foolishly optimistic. For one thing a total flat out nuclear exchange back around 1988 when the number of weapons peaked would still leave half the world undamaged and able to recover. There are many fewer weapons now so things are 'safer' from a survival point of view.
On the second hand after a decade or so there would be people talking conspiracy theories that the 'dead hand' was just a bluff, not real, nobody would build and maintain such a thing etc etc etc. Eventually the majority would believe it was an urban myth even if it was completely legit.
On the gripping hand, stuff happens you can't predict. What if a doomsday cult or rouge country got a hold of a weapon and set it off to destroy all life on Earth? Or what if say Iran attacks Saudi Arabia and they figure if they are going down they are taking Iran with them with a nuke?
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Tikib » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 14:11:07

Say what you want about this design.

But the fact is that its a zero C02 design that would almost certainly create enough net energy to replace fossil fuels.
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby PEAKINT » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 16:17:52

Tikib wrote:Attached is a prototype fission-fusion energy idea.

Its basically a repeating hydrogen bomb which would be surrounded by an energy recovery system (molten salt/water/etc)

You could probably generate an eroi of about 100 from it.



This is your design? Looks like a snowman layed sideways.
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby PEAKINT » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 16:18:19

Tanada wrote:
PEAKINT wrote:
Tanada wrote:
PEAKINT wrote:let me get something right, our sun is basically an exploding mega hydrogen bomb that has been exploding for the past 5 billion years.

it is so huge that its gravity is its own containment field

but what is to keep some nation like US/China/Russia from creating a doomsday hbomb, barred underground, with enough h stuff to blow up the entire earth?

is it a containment issue? TSAR was the biggest but it wasn't underground....


No desire to commit planetary suicide? Why would any sane person design and build a device intended only to be an artificial extinction level event?



A foolproof "dead hand" device; a true MAD deterrence against any country attempting to do a first strike decapitation of any other country.
I'm not talking "skynet", but something on par with the intelligence of a smart human (IBM bluebrain project but completely) with "AI" ability to think on its own but hardcoded for one mission of "going off" if any superpower nation (G8, BRIC, etc) decides to use nukes it will set it off.... so unlike the primitive USSR 'perimeter' this would be a smart version of dead hand, and once it place it cannot be removed, it will be a permanent self contained AI automated process. Any attempts at disarming it will trigger it off.

This will absolutely deter every nation from doing so. No one would even be tempted to use nukes again.


That is foolishly optimistic. For one thing a total flat out nuclear exchange back around 1988 when the number of weapons peaked would still leave half the world undamaged and able to recover. There are many fewer weapons now so things are 'safer' from a survival point of view.
On the second hand after a decade or so there would be people talking conspiracy theories that the 'dead hand' was just a bluff, not real, nobody would build and maintain such a thing etc etc etc. Eventually the majority would believe it was an urban myth even if it was completely legit.
On the gripping hand, stuff happens you can't predict. What if a doomsday cult or rouge country got a hold of a weapon and set it off to destroy all life on Earth? Or what if say Iran attacks Saudi Arabia and they figure if they are going down they are taking Iran with them with a nuke?



You are correct. I've been playing too much pc games

https://github.com/BITINT/DEFCON2/tree/master/source
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Quinny » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 16:31:00

Nothing like a bit of advanced science /engineering to save the world! ...... and this is nothing like a bit of advanced science /engineering!
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Tikib » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 16:49:11

Quinny wrote:Nothing like a bit of advanced science /engineering to save the world! ...... and this is nothing like a bit of advanced science /engineering!


Just to clarify this. The design its not really mine. I am sure LLNL have had designs like this on the drawing board for the last 10-20 years.

The genius is in its simplicity. You design something incredibly complicated like a Tokamak and it will be incredibly costly to run.

You design something simple but effective like this and it will give you a huge energy payback just like hydrogen bombs do.

Fusion researchers tried to make the perfect fusion system, when they should have based there system off of a design that achieved gain 50 years ago. Ivy Mike.
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 00:56:15

PEAKINT wrote:This is your design? Looks like a snowman layed sideways.
It's hard to keep track of all these symbols:
Image
But seriously, there are all these great technologies: thorium, E-Cats, ocean convection, geothermal, algae, ... that will save us if only Bill Gates, the Gubmint, Elon Musk, ... will finance a multi-$billion "Manhattan Project".
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Tikib » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 04:41:45

Keith_McClary wrote:
PEAKINT wrote:This is your design? Looks like a snowman layed sideways.
It's hard to keep track of all these symbols:
Image
But seriously, there are all these great technologies: thorium, E-Cats, ocean convection, geothermal, algae, ... that will save us if only Bill Gates, the Gubmint, Elon Musk, ... will finance a multi-$billion "Manhattan Project".


Thorium(MSR) is a good technology that could also bring an EROI of over 100 and needs more investment.
ECATS is cold fusion and cannot possibly work.
Ocean Convection would have too small an EROI to be worth investing in.
Deep rock geothermal has too small an EROI to be worth investing in.
Algae has a tiny EROI and is therefore useless.

Seriously learn some physics...
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Tikib » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 04:54:44

Also you wouldn't need a 'manhatten project' for either an MSR or a fission-fusion reactor.

There are workable designs for both already out there. They just need investment.
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Quinny » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 05:45:02

It is not a design. Please tell me you are pulling our leg?

Tikib wrote:
Quinny wrote:Nothing like a bit of advanced science /engineering to save the world! ...... and this is nothing like a bit of advanced science /engineering!


Just to clarify this. The design its not really mine. I am sure LLNL have had designs like this on the drawing board for the last 10-20 years.

The genius is in its simplicity. You design something incredibly complicated like a Tokamak and it will be incredibly costly to run.

You design something simple but effective like this and it will give you a huge energy payback just like hydrogen bombs do.

Fusion researchers tried to make the perfect fusion system, when they should have based there system off of a design that achieved gain 50 years ago. Ivy Mike.
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Withnail » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 05:50:20

Mine's better.

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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Tikib » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 05:52:33

I can give you the figures if you want quinny we are looking at a bare EROI of 2500 if you take out everything but the energy in and out.

I really can't see what the problem is, you want cheap energy this is the sort of design you want.

The first shell is specifically designed to withstand fission explosions.
X-rays from the fission explosions penetrate the second shell which sets off a D-T cryopellet.
This creates ignition in the D-T pellet, the plasma created by the d-t pellet is then concentrated by the shape of walls enough to create cheaper D-D fusion.

Energy recovery systems are put up agaist the walls as they will be heated by the reactions after each shot.
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Tikib » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 05:54:38

Just as an aside we already generate energy from small explosions in car engines, how is this any different?
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Tikib » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 06:22:13

Let me ask you guys a question.

Which do you think is more likely to be the cheaper way of producing fusion?

1. Artificially containing and extending the reaction with giant helium cooled electromagnets.
2. Allowing the reaction to happen at a more natural rate in a pulsed design with physical walls for containment.
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Tikib » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 08:20:41

It could also be much much smaller than a tokamak. Look at the size of a typical hydrogen bomb compared to the size of the planned iter plant.
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Re: Fission-Fusion Design

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 12:07:20

Tikib wrote:Also you wouldn't need a 'manhatten project' for either an MSR or a fission-fusion reactor.

There are workable designs for both already out there. They just need investment.


I will stick with the MSR thanks, lots easier to get people to accept than a system literally based on H-bombs.
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