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Failed states---neo-liberal neo-con, same philosophy

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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 28 Aug 2009, 19:55:19

Plantagenet wrote:As far as Teddy goes, he was a strong proponent of alternative energy but must also bear some of the blame for failed US government economic and social policies he played a big role in instigating during 47 years in power as the larger-then-life "lion of the senate."


He was just another rich white guy in a pool of rich white guys.

How can you possibly declare your vehement opposition to the Democrats while supporting the two-party system as a whole? In order to support the two-party system, you would have to consider the Democratic Party important and useful to the politics of the country for a list of specific reasons.

I don't like the two-party system. It is NOT a built-in feature of the Constitution, either.
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby Fishman » Fri 28 Aug 2009, 20:08:19

Serial_Worrier , you have me rolling on the floor! Beck is doing great as far as advertisers go. PLEASE keep up the boycott. All the ad folks that pulled from Beck also pulled from any controversial show, including Olb and Maddow. With Beck pulling in 3 -5 times the viewers of most any show on MSNBC and at 5 pm a tough time, other ad folks will flock to his show. If you take away what few ads are on MSNBC and a terrible number of viewer their future sucks. HAHAHAHAHA
Obama, the FUBAR presidency gets scraped off the boot
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby Fishman » Fri 28 Aug 2009, 20:21:23

Preston, a bit of correction
"the ones yelling the most about the benefits of government are the ones on SSI and welfare with lots of free time to pass this stuff on to everyone they ever met"
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby AlexdeLarge » Fri 28 Aug 2009, 20:27:24

Serial_Worrier wrote:Glenn Beck is about to lose his program.


HaHaHaHaHaHa....yeah right! You wish!! :)

Big Beck: Goes over 3 million viewers, beats O’Reilly in demo: Cable News Ratings for Wednesday, August 26, 2009

Though a little scandal might alienate advertisers, it’s pure ratings gold. Last night Glenn Beck had over 3 million viewers at 5pm, second only to O’Reilly for the night. But, Beck had more 25-54 viewers than O’Reilly (888K to 876K). I don’t watch or really even care about the cable news wars, but still…wow. Even though Beck airs before primetime, when there are fewer people watching TV, he had the most 25-54 viewers in the cable news world for the night.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/08/27/big-beck-goes-over-3-million-viewers-beats-oreilly-in-demo-cable-news-ratings-for-wednesday-august-26-2009/25541

Beck is doing a great job exposing the truth about "The One" and his thugs. The people are waking up and getting pissed. Wait till Hussein pulls the plug on your internet..........................
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby TheDude » Fri 28 Aug 2009, 20:33:06

Carlhole wrote:On the one hand, self-described "doomers" believe the US will pretty much collapse and cease to function as a nation much longer, rather like the old USSR.


The component nations of the USSR have ceased to function? That's news to me, and my buddy Medvedev.
Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 28 Aug 2009, 20:45:35

TheDude wrote:
Carlhole wrote:On the one hand, self-described "doomers" believe the US will pretty much collapse and cease to function as a nation much longer, rather like the old USSR.


The component nations of the USSR have ceased to function? That's news to me, and my buddy Medvedev.


Oh, you mean "Democrats" and "Republicans" would survive as the only two parties in a broken up America, now multiple separate nation/states? Right!

"Democrats" and "Republicans" are political brands peculiar to THIS PARTICULAR nation, the one we live in.
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby BigTex » Fri 28 Aug 2009, 20:57:57

When you're putting together the list of Kennedy misadventures, don't forget about that business with his nephew back in 1991 when a woman may or may not have been raped, but Kennedy was, according to testimony, running around the beach Winnie the Pooh-style wearing nothing but a shirt.

BTW, here's the girl he killed back in 1969:

Image
:)
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby Livewire713 » Sun 30 Aug 2009, 02:20:59

AlexdeLarge wrote:
Serial_Worrier wrote:Glenn Beck is about to lose his program.


HaHaHaHaHaHa....yeah right! You wish!! :)

Big Beck: Goes over 3 million viewers, beats O’Reilly in demo: Cable News Ratings for Wednesday, August 26, 2009

Though a little scandal might alienate advertisers, it’s pure ratings gold. Last night Glenn Beck had over 3 million viewers at 5pm, second only to O’Reilly for the night. But, Beck had more 25-54 viewers than O’Reilly (888K to 876K). I don’t watch or really even care about the cable news wars, but still…wow. Even though Beck airs before primetime, when there are fewer people watching TV, he had the most 25-54 viewers in the cable news world for the night.

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/08/27/big-beck-goes-over-3-million-viewers-beats-oreilly-in-demo-cable-news-ratings-for-wednesday-august-26-2009/25541

Beck is doing a great job exposing the truth about "The One" and his thugs. The people are waking up and getting pissed. Wait till Hussein pulls the plug on your internet..........................


I like when Glen Beck went on the View. Whoopie Goldberg really showed what a fool and liar he is. He was such a pussy on that show.
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby Pretorian » Sun 30 Aug 2009, 09:33:47

PrestonSturges wrote:
JJ wrote:email someone just sent me:
The Last of The Kennedy Dynasty
As soon as his cancer was detected,......

The folks that I know that pass on stuff like are usually pretty heavily drug addicted to prescription drugs and often have that "mean drunk" persona where they keep saying obnoxious stuff and laughing at themselves because they have have been prescribed an avalanche of uppers, downers, and painkillers washed down with god knows what. Needless to say, the ones yelling the most about the evils of government are the ones on SSI and federal retirees with lots of free time to pass this stuff on to everyone they ever met.



yet sober and undrugged liberasts can't refute one word from this letter, he he he
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby AlexdeLarge » Sun 30 Aug 2009, 10:50:30

Livewire713 wrote:He was such a pussy on that show.


LOL He is also an alcoholic!! But don't shoot the messenger. He rails on the GOP and the Dems...........but who else is looking behind the doors at who is writing the bills, the background of the czars and how the various groups such as ACORN and the Tides foundation are tied to the white house??

Beck is over the top and has game show theatrics.......but he brings you things you hear no where else in the mainstream media. TPTB have him in their crosshairs and they are out to get him. Just a matter of time before he is silenced. So enjoy while you have the chance! ;)

http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html?playerId=videolandingpage&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=8794621&referralPlaylistId=949437d0db05ed5f5b9954dc049d70b0c12f2749

http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html?playerId=videolandingpage&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=8794815&referralPlaylistId=f909db77f0ad31bbfd35cb7e6a04f50204809c04

In or Out 2010

1. I believe in a balanced budget and therefore will vote for a freeze in government spending until that goal is realized.

2. I believe government should not increase the financial burden on its citizenry during difficult economic times therefore I will oppose all tax increases until our economy has rebounded.

3. I believe more than four decades of U.S. dependence on foreign oil is a travesty therefore I will support an energy plan that calls for immediately increasing usage of all domestic resources including nuclear energy, natural gas, and coal as necessary.

4. I believe in the sovereignty and security of our country and therefore will support measures to close our borders except for designated immigration points so we will know who is entering and why and I will vehemently oppose any measure giving another country, the United Nations, or any other entity, power over U.S. citizens.

5. I believe the United States of America is the greatest country on earth and therefore will not apologize for policies or actions which have served to free more and feed more people around the world than any other nation on the planet.

What a load of crap..........Right? Right??
Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby SFDukie » Tue 01 Sep 2009, 05:04:08

JJ wrote:email someone just sent me:


The Last of The Kennedy Dynasty
As soon as his cancer was detected, I noticed the immediate attempt at the "canonization" of old Teddy Kennedy by the mainstream media. They are saying what a "great American" he is. I say, let's get a couple things clear & not twist the facts to change the real history...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/politicians/tedkennedy.asp
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby BigTex » Tue 01 Sep 2009, 09:22:31

Ted Kennedy apparently enjoyed making jokes about Chappaquiddick in private. As Denninger said, it's like some corpulent member of the aristocracy joking about the wheel of his carriage rolling over the head of a commoner. Pretty sick.

Apparently, back in the 1960s it wasn't uncommon for the elite to kill people and get away with it. The story of William Zantzinger told in the Bob Dylan song "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" is illustrative:

The main incident took place in the early hours of February 9, 1963, at the white tie Spinsters' Ball at the Emerson Hotel in Baltimore, Maryland. Using a toy cane, Zantzinger drunkenly assaulted at least three of the Emerson Hotel workers: a bellboy, a waitress, and — at about 1:30 in the morning of the 9th — Carroll, a barmaid. In addition to her work at the hotel, Hattie Carroll, at 51, was the mother of eleven children and president of a black social club.

Already drunk before he got to the Emerson Hotel that night, Zantzinger, 24 years old and 6'2", had assaulted employees at Eager House, a prestigious Baltimore restaurant, with the same cane. The cane was a 25-cent toy. At the Spinsters' Ball, he called a 30-year-old waitress a "nigger" and hit her with the cane; she fled the room in tears. Moments later, after ordering a bourbon that Carroll didn't bring immediately, Zantzinger cursed at her, called her a "nigger" also, then "you black son of a bitch," and struck her on the shoulder and across the head with the cane. After striking Carroll, he attacked his own wife, knocking her to the ground and hitting her with his shoe.

Soon after the blow, Carroll told co-workers, "I feel deathly ill, that man has upset me so." She collapsed and was hospitalized. Hattie Carroll died eight hours after the assault. Her autopsy showed hardened arteries, an enlarged heart, and high blood pressure, and gave brain hemorrhage as the cause of death.

Zantzinger was initially charged with murder. His defense was that he had been extremely drunk, and he admitted to no memory of the attack. His charge was reduced to manslaughter and assault, based on the likelihood that it was her stress reaction to his verbal and physical abuse led to the intracranial bleeding, rather than blunt-force trauma from the blow that left no lasting mark. On August 28, Zantzinger was convicted of both charges and sentenced to six months' imprisonment.

Link


Then there was that OTHER girl killed by that OTHER Kennedy clan member, Michael Skakel, this time in a drunken stupor with a golf club.

At least Kennedy escaped the fate of his sister Rosemary, who old Joe had lobotomized because she was embarrassing to the family. Link

If embarrassing the family was the criteria for having your brain scrambled, I'm not sure how Ted Kennedy missed the "cut".
:)
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby JJ » Tue 01 Sep 2009, 10:49:06

BigTex wrote:Ted Kennedy apparently enjoyed making jokes about Chappaquiddick in private. As Denninger said, it's like some corpulent member of the aristocracy joking about the wheel of his carriage rolling over the head of a commoner. Pretty sick.

Apparently, back in the 1960s it wasn't uncommon for the elite to kill people and get away with it. The story of William Zantzinger told in the Bob Dylan song "The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll" is illustrative:

The main incident took place in the early hours of February 9, 1963, at the white tie Spinsters' Ball at the Emerson Hotel in Baltimore, Maryland. Using a toy cane, Zantzinger drunkenly assaulted at least three of the Emerson Hotel workers: a bellboy, a waitress, and — at about 1:30 in the morning of the 9th — Carroll, a barmaid. In addition to her work at the hotel, Hattie Carroll, at 51, was the mother of eleven children and president of a black social club.

Already drunk before he got to the Emerson Hotel that night, Zantzinger, 24 years old and 6'2", had assaulted employees at Eager House, a prestigious Baltimore restaurant, with the same cane. The cane was a 25-cent toy. At the Spinsters' Ball, he called a 30-year-old waitress a "nigger" and hit her with the cane; she fled the room in tears. Moments later, after ordering a bourbon that Carroll didn't bring immediately, Zantzinger cursed at her, called her a "nigger" also, then "you black son of a bitch," and struck her on the shoulder and across the head with the cane. After striking Carroll, he attacked his own wife, knocking her to the ground and hitting her with his shoe.

Soon after the blow, Carroll told co-workers, "I feel deathly ill, that man has upset me so." She collapsed and was hospitalized. Hattie Carroll died eight hours after the assault. Her autopsy showed hardened arteries, an enlarged heart, and high blood pressure, and gave brain hemorrhage as the cause of death.

Zantzinger was initially charged with murder. His defense was that he had been extremely drunk, and he admitted to no memory of the attack. His charge was reduced to manslaughter and assault, based on the likelihood that it was her stress reaction to his verbal and physical abuse led to the intracranial bleeding, rather than blunt-force trauma from the blow that left no lasting mark. On August 28, Zantzinger was convicted of both charges and sentenced to six months' imprisonment.

Link


Then there was that OTHER girl killed by that OTHER Kennedy clan member, Michael Skakel, this time in a drunken stupor with a golf club.

At least Kennedy escaped the fate of his sister Rosemary, who old Joe had lobotomized because she was embarrassing to the family. Link

If embarrassing the family was the criteria for having your brain scrambled, I'm not sure how Ted Kennedy missed the "cut".


being extremely drunk never worked for me as a defense...:(
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby Pretorian » Tue 01 Sep 2009, 19:23:48

BigTex wrote:Soon after the blow, Carroll told co-workers, "I feel deathly ill, that man has upset me so." She collapsed and was hospitalized. Hattie Carroll died eight hours after the assault. Her autopsy showed hardened arteries, an enlarged heart, and high blood pressure, and gave brain hemorrhage as the cause of death.

Zantzinger was initially charged with murder.



Beg your pardon? Murder? Hitti ng some body with a toy can that does not leave any trace? So what, you call somebody a name and he/she dies next day of heart attack, thats murder? Manslaughter? wow
I guess i should think twice before honking some one on the road.
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby BigTex » Tue 01 Sep 2009, 21:02:14

Pretorian wrote:
BigTex wrote:Soon after the blow, Carroll told co-workers, "I feel deathly ill, that man has upset me so." She collapsed and was hospitalized. Hattie Carroll died eight hours after the assault. Her autopsy showed hardened arteries, an enlarged heart, and high blood pressure, and gave brain hemorrhage as the cause of death.

Zantzinger was initially charged with murder.



Beg your pardon? Murder? Hitti ng some body with a toy can that does not leave any trace? So what, you call somebody a name and he/she dies next day of heart attack, thats murder? Manslaughter? wow
I guess i should think twice before honking some one on the road.


There are a few different ways of looking at it.

One would be application of the "felony murder rule", in which a death that occurs during the commission of a felony is considered murder. (Link)

Since touching someone in any sort of hostile manner with a toy cane could be considered aggravated assault (a felony in some jurisdictions), the fact that she died shortly thereafter could be considered murder by applying the felony murder rule.

In the case of honking your horn, that's not a felony, so no murder charge should result from a resulting heart attack.

Another route might be a theory of criminally reckless or criminally negligent homicide (voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter are what some jurisdictions use), based upon the fact that it might have been foreseeable that death could result from the actions taken by the offender.

I think what probably initially warranted the murder charge was the overall set of facts in which you have a drunk and abusive person verbally and physically abusing many people in his vicinity with a toy cane and his shoe, and one of them winds up dead shortly thereafter.

Any crime that is reported in the newspaper normally results in more severe initial charges, since there is a political dimension to anything covered by the media.

The fact that he was a member of the elite was probably what resulted in the initial murder charge being dramatically reduced and the light sentence.

In general, it's not uncommon for prosecutors to seek the highest possible charge in all criminal cases so that they will have the maximum amount of bargaining room with the defendant's counsel.

In a lot of jurisdictions, criminally reckless homicide (a heavy misdemeanor or light felony depending on where you're at) is what one might expect for a death resulting from things like screaming threats in the face of a frail old person, dropping bricks off an overpass, or hitting a black woman with a cane and screaming "nigger" when receiving poor service in a restaurant.
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Wed 02 Sep 2009, 03:09:52

BigTex wrote:Since touching someone in any sort of hostile manner with a toy cane could be considered aggravated assault (a felony in some jurisdictions), the fact that she died shortly thereafter could be considered murder by applying the felony murder rule.


At the risk of arguing law with a lawyer, even your link specifically states that logic is invalid.

Furthermore, the merger doctrine excludes felonies that are presupposed by a murder charge. For example, nearly all murders involve some type of assault, but so do many cases of manslaughter. To count any death that occurred during the course of an assault as felony murder would obliterate a distinction carefully set by the legislature; however, merger may not apply when an assault against one person results in the death of another.
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby BigTex » Wed 02 Sep 2009, 09:31:35

The felony murder rule is stupid in many cases.

It's possible that while William Zantzinger was beating his wife with his shoe (possibly a felony), Hattie Carroll looked on and thought to herself "Oh lordie, lordie, the world's done turned upside down. Massah Zantzinger has done gone and turned his shoe on his own wife." The shock of the whole scene could have pushed her over the edge and killed her and thereby allowed a strained application of the felony murder rule. :shock:

I was just speculating on what might have been the state's theory.
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby Pretorian » Wed 02 Sep 2009, 14:26:55

BigTex wrote:In a lot of jurisdictions, criminally reckless homicide (a heavy misdemeanor or light felony depending on where you're at) is what one might expect for a death resulting from things like screaming threats in the face of a frail old person, dropping bricks off an overpass, or hitting a black woman with a cane and screaming "nigger" when receiving poor service in a restaurant.

two questions
1) what is exactly a toy cane? I picture myself a light, small, hollow (plastic? ) object. Does not leave any trace. That is an assault weapon? What if he knuck-knucked with his finger on her head -- would it be the same?
2) 8 hours had passed. What if she died 12 hours later? 24? 36? where is the borderline? What if she felt sick 8 hours later, and remained sick until dead 6 months later?
while i do not approve this behaviour of course, even for a lousy service in a restaurant, I think its WAY too far from
dropping bricks off an overpass.

That woman had serious heart issues and worked in a high-stress environent. thats what killed her; it could be as well a customer who didnt leave a tip or asked 1 too many of refills.
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Re: Kennedy: Liberal loser of the senate

Unread postby BigTex » Wed 02 Sep 2009, 16:09:32

Pretorian wrote:
BigTex wrote:In a lot of jurisdictions, criminally reckless homicide (a heavy misdemeanor or light felony depending on where you're at) is what one might expect for a death resulting from things like screaming threats in the face of a frail old person, dropping bricks off an overpass, or hitting a black woman with a cane and screaming "nigger" when receiving poor service in a restaurant.

two questions
1) what is exactly a toy cane? I picture myself a light, small, hollow (plastic? ) object. Does not leave any trace. That is an assault weapon? What if he knuck-knucked with his finger on her head -- would it be the same?
2) 8 hours had passed. What if she died 12 hours later? 24? 36? where is the borderline? What if she felt sick 8 hours later, and remained sick until dead 6 months later?
while i do not approve this behaviour of course, even for a lousy service in a restaurant, I think its WAY too far from
dropping bricks off an overpass.

That woman had serious heart issues and worked in a high-stress environent. thats what killed her; it could be as well a customer who didnt leave a tip or asked 1 too many of refills.


I don't know the answers to your questions.

You're marking different points on a continuum of gray that is viewed differently in different communities at different points in time.

Apparently, all of the facts I mentioned added up to 6 months in jail for that incident in that community at that point in time (about 45 years ago).

Who knows what would happen today.

Justice is a much more malleable concept than many people like to admit. The law just seeks to legitimize a community's latest perception of what justice is.
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