[Outcast_Searcher]

To the third world, spoiled brats sitting on their piles of outrageous consumption
preaching to them about how they have to curtail their carbon footprints, has got
to be indistinguishable from having a fat man tell you that you must starve so there
is enough food for his grandchildren. It is a damn hard sell against human nature and
the difference between people of luxury and leisure and those who live hand to mouth.

I don't think rational people are telling truly impoverished people in Kenya (for example) that they have to curtail their carbon footprints -- at least not very often.

Now, the need to control the rate we breed as a species, to end the population bomb via BAU growth, that's another matter entirely. In Kenya another problem is that a farmer tends to have many kids as their financial security for old age. That is the path to disaster, and it's NOT unreasonable for a frugal first worlder (where population growth is generally slow and slowing) to point that out.

Just lumping everything into rich and poor is far too simplistic. No one controls where they are born.

[ROCKMAN]

"... if the vast majority of people would voluntarily greatly reduce their consumption, then we could reduce GHG's, pollution, etc. a tremendous amount without any of these things." The world would be a significantly happier place if most voluntarily stopped doing a variety of things and voluntarily began doing a lot of other things.

So what? That isn’t the world we live in. If you’re going to wish for something that isn’t going to happen you might as well wish for something much grander...like universal peace, the end of hunger or never getting sick.

[Newfie]

Very true Roc. I for one am just trying to understand reality.

[Plantagenet]

I don't think rational people are telling truly impoverished people in Kenya (for example) that they have to curtail their carbon footprints --

If we want to stop the buildup of CO2 in the atmosphere then everyone has to curtail their carbon footprint. If countries have a small carbon footprint now then that is a good thing and it can't be allowed to grow larger---even in Kenya.

The easiest thing for a country like Kenya to do is base their infrastructure on low carbon alternative energy sources instead of building an infrastruction based on dirty coal like other 3rd world nations are doing. Kenya should use modern technology instead of repeating the mistakes of other countries and relying on coal.

And fortunately Kenya is doing the right thing---Kenya is building the largest wind power farm in Africa right now.

kenya-wind-farm

[ROCKMAN]

Newfie - I don't think the real problem is folks understanding the reality of the situation but just accepting the cruelty of it. A tough pill to swallow to say the least. For some the only relief is denial. That was my point earlier about understanding the motivation of one's opposition. As long as some folks think the problem with dealing with climate change is a lack of understanding by those rejecting it they have very little chance of modifying the path we're on IMHO. If they accept that it hinges on financial/growth interest then they might develop some avenues for a bit of compromise. Probably not much compromise in the grand scheme of things but something is better than nothing. An all or nothing approach is guaranteed to fail IMO. And in the big picture nothing is pretty much what they're getting now. A lot of supportive VERBAL chatter but almost nothing actually being done.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I don't think rational people are telling truly impoverished people in Kenya (for example) that they have to curtail their carbon footprints --

If we want to stop the buildup of CO2 in the atmosphere then everyone has to curtail their carbon footprint. If countries have a small carbon footprint now then that is a good thing and it can't be allowed to grow larger---even in Kenya.

The easiest thing for a country like Kenya to do is base their infrastructure on low carbon alternative energy sources instead of building an infrastruction based on dirty coal like other 3rd world nations are doing. Kenya should use modern technology instead of repeating the mistakes of other countries and relying on coal.

And fortunately Kenya is doing the right thing---Kenya is building the largest wind power farm in Africa right now.

kenya-wind-farm

Plant, I agree with you when discussing a country overall.

I was addressing the idea that rich fat first world individuals are attacking truly impoverished third world individuals over THEIR family's carbon footprint.

Every country is part of the global community and problem, and every country should do their part to help fix it.

[Outcast_Searcher]

"... if the vast majority of people would voluntarily greatly reduce their consumption, then we could reduce GHG's, pollution, etc. a tremendous amount without any of these things." The world would be a significantly happier place if most voluntarily stopped doing a variety of things and voluntarily began doing a lot of other things.

So what? That isn’t the world we live in. If you’re going to wish for something that isn’t going to happen you might as well wish for something much grander...like universal peace, the end of hunger or never getting sick.

With respect, you seem to be quoting me (no citation, but I found these words in one of my posts in this thread) out of context.

I was arguing in the context of my post that this is NOT going to happen -- so the mitigation issues Newfie is saying aren't needed are actually badly needed, given human nature. In other words, we agree on this issue.

[dohboi]

Just because the government of the Philippines is planning to build 23 coal plants doesn't mean all Filipinos are wildly enthusiastic about it. ROCK may deny to his deathbed, but ff companies spend huge amounts of money lobbying countries to stay dependent on their 19th century technologies. IIRC, recent polls have shown that most Filipinos rate CC as a more important and pressing concern than poverty, even though it is far from a wealthy country.

Sure, many would like more (or any) access to electricity in their homes. But they aren't out on the streets demanding that such energy only be supplied by coal and other dirty ff sources.

[Plantagenet]

...the government of the Philippines is planning to build 23 coal plants.....

No worries.

The Philippines are going to sign the new UN Treaty on climate change that outlaws temperature going up more than 2°C, aren't they?

So what the big deal? The new UN treaty says its OK for them to build 23 coal-fired power plants as long as they agree that T isn't going to go up more than 2° C.

[ROCKMAN]

dohboi - "...doesn't mean all Filipinos are wildly enthusiastic about it." I didn't say "all Filipinos are wildly enthusiastic' about it, did I? A rather weak straw man approach...shame on you. LOL. But if the majority of the citizens who elect the govt didn't want the coal plants built they wouldn't be built. You seem to have a problem with the democratic process when you're in the minority. You also often want to blame citizens (who in your opinion aren't nearly as smart as you) for being led around by the nose by corporations. The plants will be built because the majority of the Filipino people desperately want them built. BTW: how many hours during your average day does you electricity goes out? You might try walking in some Filipino boots before you start pointing a finger at those folks.

Trust me: I know it sucks to be in the minority...been there in the oil patch for 40 years. LOL. But you shouldn't blame others just because they foolishly THINK they are smarter than you.

[Paulo1]

Good post...and good comments.

I am using this time to continue preps for when excess anything is not so available. There are some amazing LED products out there right now. Current project is totally rebuilding chicken pens and houses, and making them predator proof. I am installing some motion lights (LED) that face the woods where the bears and racoons sneak in.

This is a good time to prep.

[ROCKMAN]

Excellent Paulo. I'm putting together a little project for my daughter who turns 16 next summer: solar power for her water well. A practical job for a country girl who'll be around when the serious PO sh*t hits the fan. LOL.

[claman]

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[dohboi]

R, since you went ahead and attributed a number of positions to me that I don't in fact hold, maybe we should just call it even?

But as to: "The plants will be built because the majority of the Filipino people desperately want them built."

I'm not sure how many more ways to say it so you can take it in.

No one is desperately clamoring for specifically coal plants to be built. Many people want more or some access to electricity. They don't give a flying f what source it comes from, and from polls, it looks like most of them would prefer it coming from non-ff sources.

If I got to choose, I would crash crash first world economies by over 15% a year (ideally in a controlled and equitable way) to allow some space for the poorest to develop by whatever means they may need in order to reach at least minimal levels of well being.

(As discussed elsewhere, and in spite of P's protestations to the contrary, even if all their new energy came from renewables, right now most of those are produced and transported and maintained using ff, so it would still involve a major ff commitment.)

But that is not likely to happen, short of a more than 2007-8 crises that does not get resolved bailed out.

So if that is not happening, what are the options?

1) the world's poor living wretchedly and dying prematurely at about the same rate as they are now doing (no new ff burnt to improve their lives)

2) the world's poor living ever more wretchedly and dying in much much larger much more prematurely (massive numbers of large ff burning plants used to very temporarily improved their lifestyles)

The ethical calculus would seem to lean pretty heavily towards #1, it seems to me.

Again, how the new energy is supplied does make a difference, and there are many other relatively low-carbon ways that the lives of the poorest could be vastly improved--even slightly improved education, housing, healthcare, security...

But if you strip it down to these two stark choices, it is pretty clear which one prevents the most premature death and avoids the worst other effects.

[dohboi]

P, good general point that the rather abstract and futurist 'goals' for degrees that we want to avoid heating the planet to seem to have little relation to the actual commitments to emissions cuts that could even remotely have a chance of keeping us to within those limits.

[onlooker]

I think the Excess Denier strong correlates with the Technotopians. The belief in the prowess of humans and technology and our ability to solve any problem. At this stage in fact it seems almost bizarre to believe that we can solve the myriad of profound problems we face and not attempt to confront the underlying root of our problems, being that we are in overshoot in terms of both the number of people on this planet and the lifestyles of many. Or to be more precise the lifestyles of the 20% or so who live in rich countries. So you could say by definition Excess is Denial, in so much as we need less not more. Less people , Less consumption.

[ralfy]

Poor countries have some of the lowest levels of CO2 emissions from fossil fuels, etc., in the world:

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN. ... t&sort=asc