[Jotapay]

Disagreeing with the Priest Class, even partially in some points, is never tolerated. Their god (The Great Climate (or Gaia), in this case) will smite you.

[ralfy]

For the first point, even denialists will argue that the science isn't "exact." The problem is that the point applies to both sides of the issue. The difference is that we face problems like peak oil and others, which makes denialism a waste of time.

The second point is questionable. For example,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJFZ88EH6i4

For the third point, the losses are greater courtesy of the denial machine:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9045867811

which, not surprisingly, also worked for the tobacco industry. The goal is business as usual, which is why global warming denialism works very well with peak oil denialism and free-market capitalism. Thus, there's no AGW, no peak oil, and no economic problems from which societies can easily recover.

The fourth point, which refers to pollution, is most important, because it practically undermines the whole GW denialist agenda. Hence, the false argument that equates AGW with cap and trade.

I'd like to draw the analogy between modern climate scientists and shaman who predicted the sun would extinguish if their god wasn't appeased. --snip-- Should we allow tardbasket control freaks to lie about their supporting data and usurp an initially good environmental movement to accomplish their dictatorial global goals, taxing US families $3000 more a year to institute a global police force which supersedes national sovereignty? Of course not, that's ridiculous.

[Ferretlover]

Guidelines for the Environmental Forum:

Environment
Discussions related to the direct environmental impacts of energy exploitation, development and use, as we explore the issues of hydrocarbon depletion.

Please post accordingly.
Thank you.

[Jotapay]

1. The second point is questionable. For example,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJFZ88EH6i4

2. which, not surprisingly, also worked for the tobacco industry. The goal is business as usual, which is why global warming denialism works very well with peak oil denialism and free-market capitalism. Thus, there's no AGW, no peak oil, and no economic problems from which societies can easily recover.

3. The fourth point, which refers to pollution, is most important, because it practically undermines the whole GW denialist agenda. Hence, the false argument that equates AGW with cap and trade.

1. Nice video. However, he conveniently omits the fact that the subterfuge perpetrated against AGW climate scientists is also perpetrated by AGW-proponents against skeptic scientists.

2. Not true. Notice that none of the peak oil deniers here (Oilfinder, JohnDenver) have said anything about Climategate. All the people crying foul about Climategate are Peak Oilers.

3. Cap and Trade is most definitely linked to AGW. Not equated, but linked in a problem-solution relationship.

[Roy]

Whether humans caused it or not, it's happening.

[rangerone314]

See maps (large) in Roy's post. Whether humans caused it or not, it's happening.

Looks like in the future, Maryland is going to stay zone 7.

I'm not sure I would mind zone 8... I could grow cotton, peanuts, tea trees, jiaogulan, and water chestnuts outside.

[rockdoc123]

Whether humans caused it or not, it's happening.

you might want to go to something other than Wikipedia for your information.

Climate hardiness zones are based almost entirely on the measure of minimum annual temperature. Thus it is dependant on the reliability of the surface stations used. The map you show is misleading as it suggests a higher level of confidence than exists in the data. A map you can view at

http://www.surfacestations.org/

shows that there are way too many surface stations with error greater than 2 degrees (according to that work ~ 69% of all surface stations have an error greater than 2 degrees). 2-3 degrees is the approximate difference between individual hardiness zones so the differences shown in your map fall into the area defined as statistical noise.

[Jotapay]

Yep. The denial machine has finally found a horse they can run with. The "working folk" are being played, by the denialists.

Really what I meant by "working class" was, "those who work or produce for a living". This would be contrasted against bankers, many scientists, politicians, bureaucrats who live off the labor of others.

[ralfy]

It's not just a "nice" video but one that shows how deniers have been "questioning" the science. There's more in the Youtube channel.

It's illogical for a peak oiler to question AGW because the only reason to question AGW is that if we get the science wrong, then we lose opportunities for economic growth. The best option, then, is to delay. The problem is that economic growth and the resources to delay are threatened by peak oil. That's why global warming denialism is a waste of time unless one questions not only AGW but other problems that will threaten business as usual, which includes peak oil and debt-based capitalist systems.

Cap-and-trade is not linked to AGW but to big business which wants to profit either way. Another problem is that with peak oil, there won't be cap-and-trade, just cap, which also threatens deniers' desire to delay and study GW matters further.

1. Nice video. However, he conveniently omits the fact that the subterfuge perpetrated against AGW climate scientists is also perpetrated by AGW-proponents against skeptic scientists. --snip--
3. Cap and Trade is most definitely linked to AGW. Not equated, but linked in a problem-solution relationship.

[ralfy]

Definitely, esp. if oil is needed for mass production. Another problem is that even outside GW, such production also adds to depletion of other resources as well as pollution.

In time, GW denialists will become, like peak oil denialists, increasingly irrelevant as the world faces combined problems involving pollution, global warming, peak oil, water and mineral shortages, and problems brought about by these, including epidemics and resource wars. That's because each problem is affected or affects others.

Yep. The denial machine has finally found a horse they can run with. The "working folk" are being played, by the denialists.

Really what I meant by "working class" was, "those who work or produce for a living". This would be contrasted against bankers, many scientists, politicians, bureaucrats who live off the labor of others.

[TheDude]

Climate hardiness zones are based almost entirely on the measure of minimum annual temperature. Thus it is dependant on the reliability of the surface stations used. The map you show is misleading as it suggests a higher level of confidence than exists in the data.

Yes, measuring ambient temperature is an utterly baffling exercise. Surface Stations « Open Mind

[Jotapay]

1. It's not just a "nice" video but one that shows how deniers have been "questioning" the science.
2. It's illogical for a peak oiler to question AGW because the only reason to question AGW is that if we get the science wrong, then we lose opportunities for economic growth.
3. Cap-and-trade is not linked to AGW but to big business which wants to profit either way.

1. I was trying to not crush you and the video, since it does support its assertions. The problem is that it is terribly one sided and completely ignores contrary evidence. If you can't see that, you're not being objective and are blinded by your unassailable religion.

2. You're logic is simply infantile here. I am questioning the supporting evidence for AGW since it is so obviously flawed, as stated by the scientists themselves. The data is crap and they had to make up much of it. On that basis alone I am questioning their work. If they worked at a private company, they would be promptly fired for incompetency. To say there is only one reason to question AGW shows you have no grasp on the issue.

3. You are completely and utterly wrong here. If you Google the following words: "cap and trade global warming" you will get 1,820,000 results. One of the first results is a description by the Environmental Defense Fund which links the two ideas. You really don't have a grasp of what reality is, but some imaginary world you've dreamed up. Here you go:

See why cap and trade is the best economic solution for reducing global warming emissions. Our Work » Global Warming » What Is Cap and Trade?
"Cap and trade" harnesses the forces of markets to achieve cost-effective environmental protection. Markets can achieve superior environmental protection by giving businesses both flexibility and a direct financial incentive to find faster, cheaper and more innovative ways to reduce pollution.

The lunatic things some people write about AGW is just ridiculous. Either you think other folks don't read or else you are just incredibly, incredibly ignorant.

[Jotapay]

Definitely, esp. if oil is needed for mass production. Another problem is that even outside GW, such production also adds to depletion of other resources as well as pollution.

In time, GW denialists will become, like peak oil denialists, increasingly irrelevant as the world faces combined problems involving pollution, global warming, peak oil, water and mineral shortages, and problems brought about by these, including epidemics and resource wars. That's because each problem is affected or affects others.

I think you need to learn to distinguish between pollution, which is measurable, and AGW, which has proved virtually impossible to quantify with any amount of accuracy.

[Jotapay]

Yes, measuring ambient temperature is an utterly baffling exercise. Surface Stations « Open Mind

Why are 10 years of data missing from the Marysville plots starting in 1996??

[TheDude]

Why are 10 years of data missing from the Marysville plots starting in 1996??

Because George Soros ordered them to shred the data, booga booga.

[wxman]

I'd like to draw the analogy between modern climate scientists and shaman who predicted the sun would extinguish if their god wasn't appeased. --snip-- These modern day shaman reap the monetary spoils as each family pays the shaman's salary with tax dollars ($3000 per American family under Copenhagen attendees' desires). These snake oil salesmen continue to lie to the common person, getting rich off the back of the working man with visions of controlling the entire population's every activity through a global climate enforcement body, thus ensuring their hegemony.

I'm confused. What climate scientists are getting rich off of AGW? The tenured faculty that already had steady jobs/pay and don't see a dime more in their salary from receiving research grants? Or the $25k/yr post-doc who does a lot of the work? I think you are confusing the scamsters that jump onboard a trend to make money off of it, and the real work in scientific discovery.

[Ludi]

I think you are confusing the scamsters that jump onboard a trend to make money off of it, and the real work in scientific discovery.

You mean they aren't the same people? I thought Al Gore invented global warming and faked all the research!

[AlexdeLarge]

Nope. Algore invented the internet. The AGW scam was invented by the Golden boys at Sachs to make lots of cash trading carbon credits that will be forced on business by our new neocommunist overlords. Al is just their front man..........

[Jotapay]

I'm confused. What climate scientists are getting rich off of AGW? The tenured faculty that already had steady jobs/pay and don't see a dime more in their salary from receiving research grants? Or the $25k/yr post-doc who does a lot of the work? I think you are confusing the scamsters that jump onboard a trend to make money off of it, and the real work in scientific discovery.

People setting up the carbon tax and credits trading scheme are getting rich. Al Gore is projected to become the first environmental billionaire. Scientists are getting paid (but not rich themselves) with my tax dollars, thus they have a conflict of interest to fudge the numbers to get more grant money. The politicians get rich through corporate donation, speaking fees and lucrative corporate positions for pushing their scare-mongering message. They are all part of the same scam.

[TheDude]

They're all lizards, too.



http://www.alienjesus.com