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Energy Returned on Energy Invested Thread pt 1 (merged) Arch

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin vs. EROEI

Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 08:06:32

BabyPeanut wrote:Tad Patzek's is more recent than Pimentel's
(link)
But in a recent issue of the journal Critical Reviews in Plant Sciences, UC Berkeley geoengineering professor Tad Patzek argued that up to six times more energy is used to make ethanol than the finished fuel actually contains.

The fossil energy expended during production alone, he concluded, easily outweighs the consumable energy in the end product. As a result, Patzek believes that those who think using the "green" fuel will reduce fossil fuel consumption are deluding themselves -- and the federal government's practice of subsidizing ethanol by offering tax exemptions to oil refiners who buy it is a waste of money.

"People tend to think of ethanol and see an endless cycle: corn is used to produce ethanol, ethanol is burned and gives off carbon dioxide, and corn uses the carbon dioxide as it grows," he said. "But that isn't the case. Fossil fuel actually drives the whole cycle."

Patzek's investigation into the energy dynamics of ethanol production began two years ago, when he had the students in his Berkeley freshman seminar calculate the fuel's energy balance as a class exercise.

Once the class took into account little-considered inputs like fossil fuels and other energy sources used to extrude alcohol from corn, produce fertilizers and insecticides, transport crops and dispose of wastewater, they determined that ethanol contains 65 percent less usable energy than is consumed in the process of making it.

Surprised at the results, Patzek began an exhaustive analysis of his own -- one that painted an even bleaker picture of the ethanol industry's long- term sustainability.

What is surprising is the fact that Patzek and Pimentel and NREL and the Europeans are all right, but they are not talking about the same thing.
Biofuels and even gasoline are processes that consist of two steps
Step 1: You grow something (corn,switchgrass, whatever) or you drill for oil
Step 2: You convert it to liquid fuel

In Step 1 you gain a lot of energy .... even Pimentel admits that. For switchgrass the number is 14.4 times higher than the energy investment
(EROEI of 14.4), for the Saudi oil is 20 or 30.

In Step 2: you convert it to liquid fuel. You loose energy at this point no matter which feedstock you process:
a) the conversion process will never convert 100% of all the energy found in switchgrass or oil
b) you need an additional input of energy (i.e. electricity, transportation costs etc) to run the refinery
The National Resources study that everyone has been quoting on the web IS NOT A STATEMENT about the EROIE of Step 1 AND Step 2, but only of step 2.
NREL's corn/switchgrasss/biodiesel studies are about the EROIE of Step 1 AND Step 2.
People are comparing apples to oranges .... I did go over Pimentel and Patzek study---> http://peakoil.com/post179283.html#179283
for my final post on this.
Let me give you food for thought:
One barrel of oil (42 gals) yields 19.5 gals of gasoline and an additional input of 10% of additional energy is required to power the refinery, transfer the oil to the refinery etc.

Based on these numbers the following statement is true: " Gasoline contains 65 percent less usable energy than is consumed in the process of making it"
Why? Because to refine oil to gasoline I had to input the equivalent of 1.1 barrels of oil (1 as oil, 0.1 as electricity etc) and got back only 40% of the energy contained in oil as gasoline (I took into account the different energy contents of gasoline and oil to derive this number). EROIE = 0.4/1.12 = 35%!

But I am not answering the question you really wanted to ask: What is the EROEI of oil drilling+oil refining? Pim and Patzek never do the calculation that is relevant; everyone else does, that's why they conclude that the EROEI is positive. There are other factors that kill ethanol as our saviour! (it is not, it will be a component in an energy basket mix) and I went through them in that lengthy and flammy thread.
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Re: French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin vs. EROEI

Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 08:31:22

MacG wrote:A simple challenge to ALL biofuels:

When I see a biofuel operation running without fossile inputs, then I'll belive in the thing. It should be priority no:1 for any biofuels prophet to get a closed system running for real.

Have you seen a refinery or an oil rig that runs on gasoline?
No ... the only really closed system is actually coal mining. They burn coal in place to generate electricity to power the mining machine monsters.
I would suggest downloading Wang's LCA analysis of liquid fuels or read oilanalytics excellent energy quality analysis on the EROEI of oil.
Pimentel is arguing that everyone is using tight system boundaries, yet he never uses a LCA only back of envelope calculations.
NREL provides such a model for everyone to play with:
http://www.transportation.anl.gov/softw ... index.html

When one frames these questions in energy flow diagrams ... then you will see some pretty surprising results. IMHO biofuel research needs:
- metrics
- standards
- LCA diagrams
- queing models
All of those are used by researchers at various Renewable Energy Labs ... but the answer is not in the EROIE ... there are other reasons not to go down this route but this is not becuase biofuels are net energy loosers
The best summary of the research issues involved, is a small paper by a professor in New Zealand (no math, a pleasure to read) cause he puts everything in perspective and gives a checklist of things to look for
http://www.world-council-for-renewable- ... E-SIMS.pdf
Cheers
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Re: French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin vs. EROEI

Unread postby Z » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 08:35:09

Aside from the EROEI, as I understand, corn production is very water intensive. We had a severe drought this year, and I don't know how much of the crops has been lost, since irrigation was restricted in more than 60% of the territory.

I wonder if any massive increase in the quantity of corn grown is feasible at all, at least in France, especially in regard of climate change.

What are the requirements in water/environmental conditions for alternative crops ( switchgrass ? ) ?

Any thoughts ?
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Re: French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin vs. EROEI

Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 08:48:06

Z wrote:Aside from the EROEI, as I understand, corn production is very water intensive. We had a severe drought this year, and I don't know how much of the crops has been lost, since irrigation was restricted in more than 60% of the territory.

I wonder if any massive increase in the quantity of corn grown is feasible at all, at least in France, especially in regard of climate change.

What are the requirements in water/environmental conditions for alternative crops ( switchgrass ? ) ?

Any thoughts ?

http://www.switchgrass.nl (a european study about switchgrass)
Water is a prime concern Z..... by depleting an aquifer one is doing no good I'm afraid
And other issues as well. Focusing on the EROIE (which is positive I'm afraid), leaves all other issues unaddressed i.e. the fact that the way we go we will end up burning Africa, Amazonia for no good reason.
However, to discount biofuels or renewables or nuclear (examples of positve energy investments) is stupid. They will play a role in the future (I have high hopes for wind+nuclear !!!!) if we are to avoid runaway GW.
Hope you did not mind my calling your PM a fucking idiot?
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Re: French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin vs. EROEI

Unread postby Leanan » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 09:16:19

IMO, the only biofuel is makes sense to farm is firewood. Once the initial planting is done, it doesn't take a lot of energy to maintain. You harvest branches from the trees, not the whole tree, so you don't have to replant very often, if ever.

The problem with algae, switchgrass, and the like is that they require agribusiness to grow them in significant quantities. Success in the lab or on a small test plot is not the same as success on the acres and acres we will need to make a dent in our oil use.

Here in the northeast, it's easy to grow corn. Toss a few seeds in the backyard, and it grows great, with little care.

It's nearly impossible to grow corn without spraying in, say, rural Kansas. You're surrounded by corn fields. Which means the land has been turned into a heaven on earth for corn pests of all types. Your back yard corn plants will be eaten alive as soon as they poke their heads up.

That's the problem we face with growing any crop in large quantities. They grow fine on their own in the wild, but not in the quantities we require. And once we start growing them in the quantities we require, we start needing herbicides, pesticides, fertilizer, etc.

I do think biofuels have a role. Recyling waste that would otherwise clog our landfills, for example. Like that turkey parts plant. But there's a limit to how much that sort of thing can be scaled up. Plus, I have a feeling we'll be using a lot of what is now agricultural waste as fertilizer in the future.
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Re: French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin vs. EROEI

Unread postby Z » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 09:17:22

EnergySpin wrote:http://www.switchgrass.nl


Thx for the link.

EnergySpin wrote:Hope you did not mind my calling your PM a fucking idiot?


He's not an idiot. He's a politician, a lapdog of Chirac and has definitively a broom stuck up his @ss. The problem is Chirac. The only skill of the guy seems to win elections.
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Re: French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin vs. EROEI

Unread postby EnergySpin » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 09:53:49

Leanan wrote:IMO, the only biofuel is makes sense to farm is firewood. Once the initial planting is done, it doesn't take a lot of energy to maintain. You harvest branches from the trees, not the whole tree, so you don't have to replant very often, if ever.

This is the reason for wood coppice methanol and other perennial grasses.

[/quote]
The problem with algae, switchgrass, and the like is that they require agribusiness to grow them in significant quantities. Success in the lab or on a small test plot is not the same as success on the acres and acres we will need to make a dent in our oil use.
[/quote]
Switchgrass has been grown around the world in both test sites and real world situations. In fact the CRP program of the US was instrumental in showing that it can grow and have good yields in marginal lands (they were not testing it for fuel, only researching its role in "building" up soil

Here in the northeast, it's easy to grow corn. Toss a few seeds in the backyard, and it grows great, with little care.

It's nearly impossible to grow corn without spraying in, say, rural Kansas. You're surrounded by corn fields. Which means the land has been turned into a heaven on earth for corn pests of all types. Your back yard corn plants will be eaten alive as soon as they poke their heads up.

Answer will be local ... this is why research is framed around the general kind of plant, and not is specific name (i.e. C4,C5,C6 depending on the sugar structure.

That's the problem we face with growing any crop in large quantities. They grow fine on their own in the wild, but not in the quantities we require. And once we start growing them in the quantities we require, we start needing herbicides, pesticides, fertilizer, etc.

Problems less important with perennial plants OR ethanol from wood

I do think biofuels have a role. Recyling waste that would otherwise clog our landfills, for example. Like that turkey parts plant. But there's a limit to how much that sort of thing can be scaled up. Plus, I have a feeling we'll be using a lot of what is now agricultural waste as fertilizer in the future.

This has been looked into ... there are models of soil (using real data) which have been developed by USDA for agricultural soil management. NREL have done extensive work on this ... the problem is that is 122 pages ... one needs to really spend time, but the links are the following:
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy05osti/37500.pdf

A couple of interesting links:
The report in 1998 about diesel from algae:
http//www.eere.energy.gov/biomass/pdfs/biodiesel_from_algae.pdf

NREL has an interesting comparative evaluation between biodiesl and petroleum diesel ....
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/24089.pdf
There are many definitions that they use ... and is important to note that pro and anti biofuels are often comparing different energy efficiencies
Types of Life Cycle Energy Inputs
In this study, we track several types of energy flows through each fuel life cycle. For clarity, each is
defined below.
· Total Primary Energy. All raw materials extracted from the environment can contain95 energy. In
estimating the total primary energy inputs to each fuel’s life cycle, we consider the cumulative energy
content of all resources extracted from the environment.
· Feedstock Energy. Energy contained in raw materials that end up directly in the final fuel product is
termed “feedstock energy.” For biodiesel production, feedstock energy includes the energy contained
in the soybean oil and methanol feedstocks that are converted to biodiesel. Likewise, the petroleum
directly converted to diesel in a refinery contains primary energy that is considered a feedstock
energy input for petroleum diesel. Feedstock energy is a subset of the primary energy inputs.
· Process Energy. The second major subset of primary energy is “process energy.” This is limited to
energy inputs in the life cycle exclusive of the energy contained in the feedstock (as defined in the
previous bullet). It is the energy contained in raw materials extracted from the environment that does
not contribute to the energy of the fuel product itself, but is needed in the processing of feedstock
energy into its final fuel product form. Process energy consists primarily of coal, natural gas,
uranium, and hydroelectric power sources consumed directly or indirectly in the fuel’s life cycle.
· Fossil Energy. Because we are concerned about the renewable nature of biodiesel, we also track the
primary energy that comes from fossil sources specifically (coal, oil, and natural gas). All three of
the previously defined energy flows can be categorized as fossil or nonfossil energy.
· Fuel Product Energy. The energy contained in the final fuel product, which is available to do work in
an engine, is what we refer to as the “fuel product energy.” All other things being equal, fuel product
energy is a function of the energy density of each fuel.
Defining Energy Efficiency
We report two types of energy efficiency. The first is the overall “life cycle energy efficiency.” The
second is what we refer to as the “fossil energy ratio.” Each elucidates a different aspect of the life cycle
energy balance for the fuels studied.
The calculation of the life cycle energy efficiency is simply the ratio of fuel product energy to total
primary energy:
Life Cycle Energy Efficiency = Fuel Product Energy/Total Primary Energy
It is a measure of the amount of energy that goes into a fuel cycle, which actually ends up in the fuel
product. This efficiency accounts for losses of feedstock energy and additional process energy needed to
make the fuel.
The fossil energy ratio tells us something about the degree to which a given fuel is or is not renewable. It
is defined simply as the ratio of the final fuel product energy to the amount of fossil energy required to
make the fuel:
Fossil Energy Ratio = Fuel Energy/Fossil Energy Inputs
If the fossil energy ratio has a value of zero, then a fuel is not only completely nonrenewable, but it
provides no useable fuel product energy as a result of the fossil energy consumed to make the fuel. If the
fossil energy ratio is equal to 1, then this fuel is still nonrenewable. A fossil energy ratio of one indicates
that no loss of energy occurs in the process of converting the fossil energy to a useable fuel. For fossil
energy ratios greater than 1, the fuel actually begins to provide a leveraging of the fossil energy required
to make the fuel available for transportation. As a fuel approaches being “completely” renewable, its
fossil energy ratio approaches “infinity.” In other words, a completely renewable fuel has no
requirements for fossil energy.
From a policy perspective, these are important considerations. Policy makers want to understand the
extent to which a fuel increases the renewability of our energy supply. Another implication of the fossil
energy ratio is the question of climate change. Higher fossil energy ratios imply lower net CO2
emissions. This is a secondary aspect of the ratio, because we are explicitly estimating total CO2
Life Cycle Inventory of Biodiesel and Petroleum Diesel NREL/SR-580-24089 208
emissions from each fuel’s life cycle. Nevertheless, the fossil energy ratio serves as a check on our
calculation of CO2 life cycle flows (since the two should be correlated).
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Re: French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin vs. EROEI

Unread postby BabyPeanut » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 11:22:48

EnergySpin wrote:the only really closed system is actually coal mining. They burn coal in place to generate electricity to power the mining machine monsters.

How does coal get to the furnace that powers the boilers that drive the turbines that make electricity? I suppose you could use electric trains, but it's diesel that is used to move coal.
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Re: French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin vs. EROEI

Unread postby jaws » Wed 14 Sep 2005, 13:17:57

Well what did you expect? He's the government, and people are pissed off about fuel prices. He has to do something, even if he knows it won't change the situation. He can't do nothing. The point is that he shows he cares for the suffering of his people.
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Understanding EROEI

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Fri 23 Sep 2005, 12:45:27

I've been reviewing the posts on this boards recently regarding EROEI, and I am sorry to say that I've seen some staggeringly inaccurate arguments made about it (my apologies to those who have argued correctly about it, however). On the whole, I see notions about EROEI as among the least developed in the range of terms and arguments concerning Peak Oil. In particular, there seem to be a few who understand, in concrete terms, why EROEI affects carrying capacity, and why an energy source with high EROEI will extend carrying capacity for the planet. My purpose here, then, is to try to develop some notion of what EROEI is, and moreover, what it means for our society.

For the benefit of those new to the issue, I will offer a brief explanation of what EROEI means. Basically, it is an acronym for Energy Returned On Energy Invested. Imagine for a moment that someone produces an invention that captures energy from a particular source and makes it available for purposeful use. EROEI would be calculated by taking the amount of energy produced over the lifetime of the gadget and dividing that by the amount of energy used to produce it. Energy that the gadget captures and makes available is the output. Energy required to make the gadget and keep it running is the input. Thus, if over its entire lifetime it took one unit of energy to produce and maintain (including any infrastructure necessary to make the energy available at point of use), but it produced 30 units of energy, the EROEI would be 30:1. If, on the other hand, it took one unit to produce, maintain, and transport product, but it only ever produced half a unit, the EROEI would be 1:2. It's easy to see that we wouldn't be able to power anything if that were our only energy option.

Of course, in the real world, things aren't that simple. But it appears that some people, on these boards as well as elsewhere, are determined to make the notion as complex and confusing as possible. I would like to cite two arguments sometimes offered on EROEI and explain why they are flawed.

Argument 1: The boundary of an EROEI analysis is not clear.

This argument goes that it's impossible to rigorously define what counts as an input. Do we include the energy in the breakfast that the platform workers ate before they started pumping oil that day? Do we include the energy generated by the electricity wired to the refinery? Do we include the energy that feeds the banker who loans money to the oil field owner for development? Casting our boundaries wide enough, it is argued, we could find compelling reason to think that the whole infrastructure of society has to be present to produce a single barrel of oil; and if inputs cannot be determined, then the entire calculation cannot be done.

This argument at least somewhat sensical and relevant to the issue. It is, however, not an objection to using EROEI the way that Peak Oilers normally do. If we had only one energy source option, and all other variables were held equal, then an EROEI calculation would necessarily have to have inputs rigorously defined, and there would definitely have to be considerable discussion about what constitutes an input. Opinions would likely vary, as we see that they do among the scientists who attempt EROEI studies. Despite this, I believe it would be possible to reasonably and rigorously define what was and was not an input, and what the total output would be.

But EROEI as it relates to oil peak is more useful as a comparative number. We'd like to compare the quantitative advantage that oil gives us over nuclear, coal, biomass, solar, wind, and so on. And here's where the objection loses steam; it is not necessary to examine and make a judgement about every input, to agree (absent any comparison) exactly where the boundary should be drawn, and so on. Provided that certain basics could be agreed upon, it's really only necessary to hold the boundaries constant across comparable calculations. If we include the breakfast that the oil workers eat, then we include the breakfast that the biomass farmers eat, though costs in each system may be wildly different. And so on.

Of course, some analogies have to be made. Where for a modern oil rig, a fraction of oil (usually diesel) powers the machinery that pumps the oil, food powers the lumberjack who chops wood. The energy inputs are analagous, however, and I think it's pretty easy to see that. The machine that gets the oil out of the ground is a pump, the machine that gets the wood out of the forrest is a human being. Both are powered by the afforementioned inputs.

What seems confusing to a lot of people is that the analogy has to be made functionally, not categorically. It doesn't (or shouldn't) matter that diesel and food are typically taken to be in different categories. Functionally, they serve the same purpose with regard to this sort of analysis.

Arguement #2 Economic impact of EROEI is negligible

This argument has it that there will always be a willingness to invest in any energy scheme that generates positive EROEI. Even though the Athabascan oil sands may have a much lower EROEI than conventional oil, the markets will take care of the extra energy cost because profit will still be generated.

This argument stands in sharp contrast to the first in that not only is it incomplete, it's just plain stupid. The economic definition of energy is the capacity to do work. When you pay money to someone else for something, you're paying for work done to extract or recover essential resources and turn them into something you can use to further your own survival or comfort. In terms of ultimate origin, you're not paying anything for the creation of the resources; nature took care of that.

This may seem a little odd at first, but an illustration should clear things up. Lets talk about a tomato. The inputs for making a tomato are commonly taken to be fertilizer, land, seed, water, and sunlight. In the case of the first four, farmers pay money for those things, in order that they may produce tomatos and themselves be paid. But no one currently pays a dime for sunlight. Suppose, however, that something happened to the atmosphere to cause the sun not to shine through bright enough anymore to grow tomatoes. Then, suppose that someone invented a process that would clarify the atmosphere and reverse those effects, but this would have ongoing maintenance. People would, likely, have to pay for this process, probably through higher taxation. But would they be paying for sunlight, or the energy consumed in making the sunlight usable? Clearly, the latter.

Similarly, when we pay money for a product (surely the basis of any modern economy; people pay money for products, which money they got for their products, and so on), we are paying for energy expended in going from raw materials to finished goods. Even when we pay for land, we're paying for the energy necessary to adjucate and administer land records. If we imagine that there were only, say, 50 people spread throughout the world, no one would need to pay for land.

But energy isn't the sum total of the value of money. Something else that lends value to money is faith. Money that is in circulation right now is not valued entirely on the sum total of the energy available in the economy. If that were the case, things would have collapsed long ago.

Currency itself has little or no intrinsic value. It's value derives from what it represents (energy), and also faith that it will continue to represent a relatively constant amount of energy. For this reason, the total amount of energy available to an economy can contract or stay constant while the sum total face value of currency in circulation may expand.

But it is a mistake to assume that energy can contract significantly without the currency that represents it losing value. In the real world, this is easy to understand. As gasoline prices go up, for instance, the cost of goods to the end user will rise, though they lag behind the rise in fuel costs. The question of how far available energy has to contract before money devalues substantially enough that endemic mass unemployment and economic collapse result is not easily answered. This is true mainly because faith in the value of the currency is not quantifiable.

However, it strains the imagination to believe that the sum total of the energy available to an economy might be cut in half, or worse, without significant damage being the result. Especially when faith in the value of the currency and the government that controls its supply are also waning.

And understanding what happens as energy leaves is crucial to understanding the threat of Peak Oil. For the purposes of simplification, let's assume that tomatos are the only food that all people eat. Let us also assume that half their retail price is derived from the cost of shipping them from their point of origin to the point of consumption. As more energy becomes necessary to make energy usable (i.e. the EROEI ration decreases), the higher the cost of transportation. If EROEI decreases by half, say, from 100:1 to 50:1, all other things being equal, fuel costs will double. This will cause the cost of each tomato to rise 25%. So if tomatoes started out costing a dollar each, now they cost $1.25. If the EROEI drops again, this time lets say it takes a nosedive down to 5:1, tomatoes actually cost $10.50 a piece. For those with little discretionary income, this means that they have to eat 10 times less than they previously did--probably not possible if they want to live.

Of course, it's not the case that prices actually follow this kind of linear function. And all sorts of measure may forestall this fate. But they will not avert it forever.

One thing that tends to hold things together for a time is the afforementioned faith in the ability of the currency to hold its value. So long as everyone thinks that they can get as much energy with the currency tomorrow as they are giving away today, the economy will not collapse. But it's not possible for this to go on forever, especially when prices rise while currency in circulation remains constant. If people don't notice that their money won't buy as much as it used to, they'll eventually be forced to produce less when they can't afford to eat.

What is of prime importance in understanding the impact of oil peak is determining the kind of roll-off that will be taking place. Right now, we don't have the data necessary to come to firm conclusions, though there is enough evidence that it may be fairly sharp. In that event, hard times, and a probably die-off, are assured.
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Re: Understanding EROEI

Unread postby holmes » Fri 23 Sep 2005, 13:14:30

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Re: Understanding EROEI

Unread postby Sparaxis » Fri 23 Sep 2005, 22:04:00

Very good post! I have read many of these posts as well, and get frustrated at some of the assertions about EROEI that have no basis in fact.

I appreciate your pointing out the usefulness in peak oil discussion of the comparative measures of EROEI, even given the differences in methodologies and boundaries that various studies encompass. I find, for example, that the debate between Pimentel's 0.73, Argonne's 1.45, and the USDA's 1.62 EROEI for ethanol to be laughable, since it misses the point that at any of these measures, ethanol simply isn't a viable high-volume alternative to a liquid fuel with an EROEI of 15-20 or higher (not to mention the land impacts), as the enormous increase in energy inputs to achieve it would take that much more energy away from doing any other productive work in the economy. The issue of net energy seems to be lost on policy makers since it is all masked by dollar valuations.

The economic relationship is quite interesting. Leaving money out of EROEI discussions takes away one way to understand human behavior (since we are motivated by money, not energy) in sustaining energetically unprofitable activities. For example, there have been those assertions here that when oil's EROEI falls to 1, producers will stop producing. That might be true if all the input energy were oil, but it isn't, and society doesn't value all energy the same, so many behaviors persist when EROEI is less than one. Power generation is a perfect example. If you simply look at conversion efficiencies--not even a full EROEI scope--then for every ton of coal used to produce electricity, we "throw away" 65% of the energy in order to make electricity (i.e. 0.35 return). Why do we do this? Because electricity is so much more useful to us than coal. And our valuation of the energies reflect this. Currently, electricity is valued (in San Francisco at least) at $35 per million BTU, and we all gladly pay it to get electricity services. But the coal we use to make electricity is valued at only $2.44/million BTU (Appalachian coal, 25 mmBTU/short ton, Sept 2005 prices). And with these price differences, the 65% loss is more than affordable and the producers make a profit. So the behavior is rewarded.

What concerns me is that we will similarly reward behavior such as coal liquefaction (which has only a 0.25 to 0.35 return in terms of liquid fuels on input) that will consquently have enormous emissions implications. Although coal prices in the US have nearly doubled in the past few years, $2.44/mmBTU of coal simply can't compare to the $24/mmBTU of gasoline we pay now (i.e. $3/gallon), and the conversion losses and low EROEI of this process are simply subsidized through our differential valuations. I recently did a calculation that to replace all the diesel use in China with coal liquefaction-produced diesel would require the production of an additional half-billion tonnes of coal (on top of the 1.9 billion they already produce). This is an enormous increase, and only for one country!

I like your discussion of economic impact. Yes, it's not necessarily linear, and the flip-side of increased energy input into energy production is the loss of that energy elsewhere in the economy to do anything useful (and thus our economic value-added). Again, using a China example (sorry, it's my research focus), I found that the direct energy inputs into energy production rose from 12% of total industrial energy use in 1990 to nearly 25% today. That means doubling the amount of energy produced just to produce the energy to do everything else in the economy!

And finally, I think another issue where EROEI is instructive is looking at the feasibility of scale-up. So many people seem to feel that we can just make a seamless (or even somewhat bumpy) transition to alternative fuels as oil availability declines. But EROEI shows you the magnitude of the energy input side to achieve a certain magnitude on the output side, and that alone gives one pause in asserting that any of these alternatives can expand at a rate commensurate with oil decline, much less expand at a rate to make up depletion plus growth.
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Re: Understanding EROEI

Unread postby Antimatter » Fri 23 Sep 2005, 22:56:43

If EROEI decreases by half, say, from 100:1 to 50:1, all other things being equal, fuel costs will double. This will cause the cost of each tomato to rise 25%. So if tomatoes started out costing a dollar each, now they cost $1.25. If the EROEI drops again, this time lets say it takes a nosedive down to 5:1, tomatoes actually cost $10.50 a piece.


You seem to be misunderstanding EROEI yourself. The relationship between net energy and the EROEI value is not linear. If EROEI decreases from 100:1 to 50:1 fuel costs will not come close to doubling. An EROEI of 100:1 gives you 99 units net out of 100 gross, 50:1 gives you 98 units net out of 100 gross, a completely insignificant difference. Fuel costs will increase more like 1%. Even if EROEI goes to 5:1 thats still 80 units net out of 100 gross so fuel costs will increase maybe 20%. So even if EROEI goes from 100:1 to 5:1 the tomatos will cost 10% more all else being equal, from $1 to $1.10. Oops. :)
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Re: Understanding EROEI

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Fri 23 Sep 2005, 23:05:33

Thanks, Sparaxis, for your illuminating comments. I'd be curious to see that calculation for China...
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Re: Understanding EROEI

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Sat 24 Sep 2005, 00:05:28

You seem to be misunderstanding EROEI yourself. The relationship between net energy and the EROEI value is not linear. If EROEI decreases from 100:1 to 50:1 fuel costs will not come close to doubling. An EROEI of 100:1 gives you 99 units net out of 100 gross, 50:1 gives you 98 units net out of 100 gross, a completely insignificant difference. Fuel costs will increase more like 1%. Even if EROEI goes to 5:1 thats still 80 units net out of 100 gross so fuel costs will increase maybe 20%. So even if EROEI goes from 100:1 to 5:1 the tomatos will cost 10% more all else being equal, from $1 to $1.10. Oops.


Maybe I'm mistaken, but I really don't think so. If I'm the person producing the oil (let's assume that oil costs $1.00 per barrel), I'm used to spending $1.00 and getting $100.00 for my investment at an EROEI of 100:1. Probably, my lifestyle, my business dealings, etc. are dependent on that being the case. That's how I value a barrel of oil, and that's what constitutes my faith in the value of money--I believe that when someone gives me a dollar, I'm going to be able to get $100.00 from the deal. Of course, that's a huge profit, but that's the nature of business. There are businesses that entail even larger profits. Anyway, part of how an economy gets built is that I take a large chunk of those profits and spend them on the products that other people use energy to produce, thereby distributing the money. Historically, money has always been concentrated first in the hands of those who control the energy.

But if I start spending twice as much money to find the same amount of oil, I will start charging twice as much to sell an equivalent amount. Yes, the cost in energy does not proceed in linear fashion, but what you do to the energy side of the equation, you have to balance on the money side. Money still represents energy, but it holds its value by virtue of the fact that the person spending it believes he'll get an equivalent amount of energy out of it as he put in to get it. Energy producers are something of a special case, no doubt. But not so much so; business people do this all the time, regardless of how ridiculous their profits may seem. If they didn't, the economy would collapse pretty fast.
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Re: Understanding EROEI

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Sat 24 Sep 2005, 00:54:37

Just to make sure I've covered my bases:

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EROEI

The first URL is an inflation calculator; you'll see that a dollar in 1848 was worth 20 times more than it is today. The second is a Wiki article on the EROEI of oil since 1848; it's roughly 1/20th today what it was originally.

This is, of course, a simplification, but I think it counts as empirical evidence that this is how people view money, and hence, what gives money its value.
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Re: Understanding EROEI

Unread postby Antimatter » Sat 24 Sep 2005, 01:34:16

But if I start spending twice as much money to find the same amount of oil, I will start charging twice as much to sell an equivalent amount. Yes, the cost in energy does not proceed in linear fashion, but what you do to the energy side of the equation, you have to balance on the money side.


If your finding costs increase from say $1/bbl to $2/bbl you don't go from selling oil at say $50/bbl to $100/bbl. Similarly a doubling of energy input does not result in a doubling of output cost unless EROEI is close to unity, and even then energy is not the sole (dollar) cost of producing energy. EROEI is pretty much irrelevant once its above 10 or so. Net energy moves towards an asymptote as the EROEI figure increases, it does not increase linearly. The difference between an EROEI of 100 and 1000 is about 0.9%.

The first URL is an inflation calculator; you'll see that a dollar in 1848 was worth 20 times more than it is today. The second is a Wiki article on the EROEI of oil since 1848; it's roughly 1/20th today what it was originally.

This is, of course, a simplification, but I think it counts as empirical evidence that this is how people view money, and hence, what gives money its value.


Inflation was going on even as we shifted to higher EROEI and better quality fuels (wood to coal to oil). That wiki article is nonsense, EROEI in the US is about 10 currently according to the site it links to (Cleveland and Kaufmann). The figure for Saudi is pure speculation, and probably much too low. Here's the results from C&K's most recent work:

Image

The figure for 3 probably comes from this image from dieoff.org:

Image

Which is based on C&K's earlier work and an extrapolation of the earlier trend which then reversed. Seems Jay Hanson either doesn't know about this or ignores it.

I also find this theory that all money comes back to energy a bit fishy. It reminds me of Marx's theory that all wealth comes from labour. One could also say all money comes back to steel. You need steel to drill for oil. You need steel to transport anything anywhere. You need steel build buildings, construct bridges etc. Nothing could be done without steel. Clearly all money represents the steel used in producing and transporting products.
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Re: Understanding EROEI

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 24 Sep 2005, 01:57:43

Antimatter wrote:
If EROEI decreases by half, say, from 100:1 to 50:1, all other things being equal, fuel costs will double. This will cause the cost of each tomato to rise 25%. So if tomatoes started out costing a dollar each, now they cost $1.25. If the EROEI drops again, this time lets say it takes a nosedive down to 5:1, tomatoes actually cost $10.50 a piece.


You seem to be misunderstanding EROEI yourself. The relationship between net energy and the EROEI value is not linear. If EROEI decreases from 100:1 to 50:1 fuel costs will not come close to doubling. An EROEI of 100:1 gives you 99 units net out of 100 gross, 50:1 gives you 98 units net out of 100 gross, a completely insignificant difference. Fuel costs will increase more like 1%. Even if EROEI goes to 5:1 thats still 80 units net out of 100 gross so fuel costs will increase maybe 20%. So even if EROEI goes from 100:1 to 5:1 the tomatos will cost 10% more all else being equal, from $1 to $1.10. Oops. :)


yeah. so this guy (mr. 37 posts) lectures the entire peak oil community about eroei and he doesn't even understand a simple basic, component of it. Why should I read the rest of his nonsence? why is he lecturing me? what is wrong with people? weren't they potty trained. doesn't anyone have any pride. IT IS FUCKING HUBRIS TO THE MAX!

god I hope rita goes north and west and east and south and around the world and wipes everybody out!
Our great-great-grandparents burned wood and coal. Our grandparents burned oil. We burn natural gas. Our children will burn their furniture. :badgrin:
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Re: Understanding EROEI

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Sat 24 Sep 2005, 11:09:33

If your finding costs increase from say $1/bbl to $2/bbl you don't go from selling oil at say $50/bbl to $100/bbl.


You might not, but if you're like any other business person I know, that's exactly what you do. There's a very good reason why, as well.

Similarly a doubling of energy input does not result in a doubling of output cost unless EROEI is close to unity, and even then energy is not the sole (dollar) cost of producing energy.


Again, sure, as long as we're talking about energy costs. Dollar costs are different. However, I would argue that energy costs are the primary motivating factor for producing inflation.

EROEI is pretty much irrelevant once its above 10 or so. Net energy moves towards an asymptote as the EROEI figure increases, it does not increase linearly. The difference between an EROEI of 100 and 1000 is about 0.9%.


I don't agree that it becomes irrelevant above a certain level. Irrelevant to what?

I also find this theory that all money comes back to energy a bit fishy. It reminds me of Marx's theory that all wealth comes from labour. One could also say all money comes back to steel. You need steel to drill for oil. You need steel to transport anything anywhere. You need steel build buildings, construct bridges etc. Nothing could be done without steel. Clearly all money represents the steel used in producing and transporting products.


There are very good reasons to believe that Marx got that part right, though where he went with it may be a little more questionable.

Since you mention steel, let's try another thought experiment. Let's suppose that steel magically appeared for anyone and everyone in the world, in whatever form they needed it in, in whatever quantity. When you go to buy a car, the steel isn't there until you buy it, when suddenly it just pops into place in the car exactly as it needs to be. If you happen to need a knife, one just appears for you, already sharpened and everything, ready to go.

Who would pay for steel in that instance? Of course, no one would pay for steel.

But suppose instead that steel appeared that way only for one person in the whole world, and no one else had any access to it at all. This special person still has to figure out how to distribute it, but would otherwise be able to conjure as much as they want, on demand. Would that person be justified in charging for it? Obviously so. Why? Of course, because even though they don't have to do anything to create it, they certainly have to do work to get it to where it will be used. They're justified in asking a price for it not because they happen to possess it, but because they have to work to make it useful.

If you go back in time about a hundred years ago, no one paid for air. There was plenty of breathable air, all over the place. Now, in places like Los Angeles, Tokyo, or Mumbai, the air is so polluted that people pay certain other enterprising people to stop by their shops and breathe purified air for a while. Why do they do this? Why the change? Obviously, relatively clean air is pretty abundant in the world as a whole. But people living in the afforementioned cities pay to get this otherwise abundant source. Why is it just that they should pay? Again, obviously, because someone expended energy to make that air available in that environment.

If you have a good counter-argument, I'd be very interested to hear it.

As for C&K, that's not exactly how I read their work. They say in their 2000 paper that their calculation depends on the data from their 1992 study (the one that the dieoff.org graph is based on). The difference in absolute and proportional values in the 2000 calculation has to do with energy quality (Sparaxis was getting at this, actually), which they represent in their revised ratio with qualified lamdas. However, energy quality is primarily an economic indicator, not an energy indicator. I am offering a different but analagous (and greatly simplified) way to look at how energy flows into an economy. For the purpose of this discussion, therefore, energy quality has to be handled with some care.
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Re: Understanding EROEI

Unread postby DigitalCubano » Sat 24 Sep 2005, 11:58:12

ashurbanipal wrote:
I also find this theory that all money comes back to energy a bit fishy. It reminds me of Marx's theory that all wealth comes from labour.

If you have a good counter-argument, I'd be very interested to hear it.


How about the intrinsic, non-utilitarian value of commodities like gold? Or diamonds for that matter? While a polished stone is worth more than an uncut diamond, and there is work involved in mining, processing and transporting the former, these factors only contribute a slight premium to the overall value. The value is mostly derived from the scarcity of the commodity. The same logic applies to money. You can't discount the eneregy-independent premium people are willing to pay to secure their assets in a currency that is pereived stable.
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