Doomsday Preppers (TV show on National Geographic)

[pstarr]

I'm not much of an aquaponics fan. For me it's an extension of the "soil as an inert recipient for added nutrients" approach.

I much prefer having living soil and diversity, but I guess you need a lot more space for that.

I don't believe aquaponics (or hydroponics) may be certified organic, which is all about soil health and a living balanced ecology. Aquaponics mimics a balanced ecology. is that enough?

As for space; you still have to feed the fish chow grown outside the system on some land. So that is additional space that must be accounted for. It's all a question of calories, protein, nutrients, NPK, and the appropriate (for my climate, land configuration, money) conversion from soil/water/sun to necessary human nutrition. The critical nutritional issue is GLA, omega-3, and vitamin B. What is required of the homestead to produce these?

I would prefer a mix of chickens, rabbits, and goats but I'm less squeasmish killing fish. I am very interested in aquaponics, and hope to try the system in my new hoop greenhouse. Tilapia in the summer and trout in the winter. Raising the young is the hard part I guess.

[SeaGypsy]

I am yet to see it proven, but the proponents of fully closed loop aquaponics reckon you are wrong about 'having to' bring in nutrients. The primary nutrient is the variety of micro-organisms grown in the gravel beds, feeding on air, water, minerals in the gravel base and micro nutrients in ordinary dust.

[Shaved Monkey]

To close the food loop, its rabbit/guinea pig poo, duck weed, worms, soldier fly larva,maggots and bugs.
Solar lights ,and solar powered bug wackers hanging over the system will keep the bug food coming.
Hanging some meat over the system will bring a stream of maggots.
Soldier flies maggots can be caught and self harvest in a pod.
Worms in the grow beds control solids and provide additional fish food.

Its more "organic" than regular soil organics because there cant be anything put in the system that will kill your fish.
Great for people with really crap soil and limited water too.

Downside; it requires knowledge and skills, getting baby fish,power input, set up cost and constant monitoring/maintenance.
Upside;the fastest most productive way of growing organic fruit/veg in a small area, if you are limited for space water and have really poor soils. Plus fish, crayfish and fresh water mussels.

[vtsnowedin]

I watched a couple of episodes today that my DVR recorded for me. Haven't come across the aquaponics episode as yet. They make each prepper state what possible disaster or doom they are prepping for then at the end tell the audience what the "experts" think are the chances of that particular doom coming to pass. Usually infinitesimally low so it makes the preppers seem foolish. What they don't seem to realise is that a prepper is prepared for whatever might happen not just their greatest concern. No matter where you live hurricanes ,floods,blizzards earthquakes civil unrest are all possible and though the chances of any particular disaster coming to you are very small the chances of something bad happening from the possible list within a few years much higher.

[SeaGypsy]

To close the food loop, its rabbit/guinea pig poo, duck weed, worms, soldier fly larva,maggots and bugs.
Solar lights ,and solar powered bug wackers hanging over the system will keep the bug food coming.
Hanging some meat over the system will bring a stream of maggots.
Soldier flies maggots can be caught and self harvest in a pod.
Worms in the grow beds control solids and provide additional fish food.

Its more "organic" than regular soil organics because there cant be anything put in the system that will kill your fish.
Great for people with really crap soil and limited water too.

Downside; it requires knowledge and skills, getting baby fish,power input, set up cost and constant monitoring/maintenance.
Upside;the fastest most productive way of growing organic fruit/veg in a small area, if you are limited for space water and have really poor soils. Plus fish, crayfish and fresh water mussels.

Yeah I forgot about the bugs part. Seems like awesome fun, besides productive.

[pstarr]

Not to belabor the point but still bringing in the rabbit poo, meat, insects etc. from outside the system. Very cool though, like grazing animals,flocks, herds that bring nutrients to the farm and make it available as meat, manure, and by-products. Love the bug zapper.

Regarding human poo and disease. I remember a farm in western virginia that had large porous pipes (12" diameter) several feet long, straight down in the ground next to orchard trees. Human compost was regularly put in the pipes and the pipes capped. That way disease vector is underground only in contact with roots.

[Loki]

I watched a couple of episodes today that my DVR recorded for me. Haven't come across the aquaponics episode as yet. They make each prepper state what possible disaster or doom they are prepping for then at the end tell the audience what the "experts" think are the chances of that particular doom coming to pass. Usually infinitesimally low so it makes the preppers seem foolish. What they don't seem to realise is that a prepper is prepared for whatever might happen not just their greatest concern. No matter where you live hurricanes ,floods,blizzards earthquakes civil unrest are all possible and though the chances of any particular disaster coming to you are very small the chances of something bad happening from the possible list within a few years much higher.

I think the aquaponics thing was in the pilot episode.

I agree with your assessment of the silly focus on a single disaster and the expert appraisal of its probability. Anybody who's been prepping for more than 5 minutes knows that we can't predict the future, so we have to be prepared for any number of possible scenarios (kinda the whole point of prepping). But guess the producers figured it was necessary for the drama or something.

Re. "closed loops," I don't think such a thing exists, certainly not in biological systems. All food production systems require inputs of some kind, though some require less than others. That said, I know absolutely nothing about aquaponics, don't eat much fish myself. But I have considered suggesting to my boss that we plant a pond on the farm in wapato ("Indian potato").

[SeaGypsy]

True, there is no such thing really as a closed loop system. But when the inputs fly themselves into the system, that has to be considered nifty.

[pstarr]

that's why I've been thinking of a pigeon coop. they spend the day outside foraging and then come home to roost, like chickens. A friend worked in some Ecuadorean farm. It was his job to climb up in the barn rafters and collect/harvest the pigeon fledglings.

[vtsnowedin]

I was thinking that planet earth was the only and ultimate closed loop system but even that has the constant addition of solar energy from an outside source.

[pstarr]

8) I was thinking that planet earth was the only and ultimate closed loop system but even that has the constant addition of solar energy from an outside source.

I agree and the goal for me is to live free of the American Consumer/Industrial "system" (where possible) as simply, creatively, easily, cheaply and luxuriously as possible, using technology that does not draw down the earth's resources. (note; luxuriously means free of worry; want; hard damaging physical labor. Not unnecessary consumption ) To do so means not having to import external inputs into the garden, relying on nutrients on the property.

[vtsnowedin]

8) I was thinking that planet earth was the only and ultimate closed loop system but even that has the constant addition of solar energy from an outside source.

I agree and the goal for me is to live free of the American Consumer/Industrial "system" (where possible) as simply, creatively, easily, cheaply and luxuriously as possible, using technology that does not draw down the earth's resources. (note; luxuriously means free of worry; want; hard damaging physical labor. Not unnecessary consumption ) To do so means not having to import external inputs into the garden, relying on nutrients on the property.

I wouldn't be such a purest about it. Having a cow on the property or chickens vs bringing in a pickup load of the end product from elsewhere makes no difference to the worms and soil bacteria. A good hard look at topsoil erosion and how to prevent it are always on the top of my list.

[SeaGypsy]

Even for those who have the perfect ag land, aquaponics is a concept so adapted to a low energy future it seems crazy not to learn it and begin applying it. Sure many of us still have the luxury (the global 1%ers on this forum mostly) to fast track projects utilizing high energy use inputs available for peanuts right now. Assuming they are going to keep being available is a fool's bet.

For those many millions stuck in suburbia somewhere, AP looks like being the only methodology whereby an ordinary block with every bit including roofspace utilized, might possibly be able to feed a small family.

Then there is just the peace of mind aspect. I know in my bones that having a seriously closed loop (allowing for fly ins/ crawl ins/ useful pests) would have a calming effect on me I can't imagine finding any other way. I imagine many others who think about peak oil would feel similarly.

[Blacksmith]

I am particularly impressed how people come to terms with their environment, from the fireman in New York to the contractor converting the missle silo in Kansas. I watched the series with a slightly different attitude (considering my age) than most, but I think we all have something to learn from all these people.
I wish they would also cover prepping from the zombie point of view.

[SeaGypsy]

"Prepare for what?"

[davep]

Even for those who have the perfect ag land, aquaponics is a concept so adapted to a low energy future it seems crazy not to learn it and begin applying it. Sure many of us still have the luxury (the global 1%ers on this forum mostly) to fast track projects utilizing high energy use inputs available for peanuts right now. Assuming they are going to keep being available is a fool's bet.

That appears to be a false dichotomy. I like the permaculture ideals of mimicking and working with nature, using on-farm inputs. Aquaponics doesn't utilise the extremely complex microbial relationships in the soil, and appears to be an attempt to re-engineer what nature does very well already. However, I get that in a (sub)urban environment it may be one of the few viable options.

[SeaGypsy]

From what I hear the microbiology thrives in the gravel beds and that is a large part of why the system works so well.
Permaculture has a downside in introducing weed species, besides unsuited to production of high calorific density, enough to feed a family on a houseblock.

[davep]

From what I hear the microbiology thrives in the gravel beds and that is a large part of why the system works so well.
Permaculture has a downside in introducing weed species, besides unsuited to production of high calorific density, enough to feed a family on a houseblock.

I'm not sure weed species is an altogether bad thing. The larger the biodiversity, the better the habitat for pest predators etc. But I agree that permaculture is not really designed for high density production, hence my caveat about aquaponics being one of the few viable systems in an urban environment. However, there are others, such as biointensive "which focuses on maximum yields from the minimum area of land, while simultaneously improving the soil" etc.

[Tanada]

Watched an episode off my DVR last night about a woman in Houston preparing for a oil calamity. At the end the 'experts' said its has never happened before so it is a very low risk. Guess I can go back to BAU with a clear conscious!

[Pops]

I think aquaponics is kinda cool, especially for high value crops like tomatoes. I saw this setup for sprouting grass in a catalog I get.

One of the problems with a greenhouse over a tiny puddle of water in AZ and "1,000" fish is that the first day of spring that the sun comes out it's going to make the temperature of the water rise dramatically. Warm water holds less oxygen so the fish suffocate. I had a great big Koi pond once and hauled off garbage bags of fish one spring.

One of the things I've found is that for me personally, lots of the new fashioned mother earth news ideas sound really cool and smart and logical and all that but it is because we each have 58 energy slaves to do the things that aren't cool: Put the leftovers in the fridge, the pots in the dish washer and go out and move the chicken tractor, then come back in and turn up the t-stat because it's cold outside.

But if you must cut firewood, to heat water, that you must haul, to use soap you must make, to clean pots you must scrub... the chances are you aren't going to be moving the chickens so they can have fresh grass daily. I don't need to do any of that and still I only used a chicken tractor a couple of years because the return of "cool" wasn't worth the effort.

Anyway, I've only seen a few episodes but I like watching these folks even though the idea is to make them look as crazy as possible.