Doomsday Preppers (TV show on National Geographic)

[Fishman]

Pstarr, now you went off the deep end. Why is it industrialized farming's fault? Don't most folk choose what they buy at the store? Buy organic, grow your own, what ever. Who's stopping folks but themselves. Organic is expensive, growing your own is hard work. General human nature chooses not to follow that route. I can only assume you recommend subsidized organic. Yes, I would agree we should stop ag subsidies, but expect food, particularly for the poor, to get MUCH more expensive.

[pstarr]

Pstarr, now you went off the deep end. Why is it industrialized farming's fault? Don't most folk choose what they buy at the store? Buy organic, grow your own, what ever. Who's stopping folks but themselves. Organic is expensive, growing your own is hard work. General human nature chooses not to follow that route. I can only assume you recommend subsidized organic. Yes, I would agree we should stop ag subsidies, but expect food, particularly for the poor, to get MUCH more expensive.

We had cheap oil and now we don't. I don't expect folks who are strapped by injustice or bad luck to solve my problems and choose the more environmental "solution." While it's true that organic ag. will always be more benign to wildlife, farm workers, and that is good, industrial organic ag. probably uses as much or more oil than "conventional." It depends on shipping poultry poop from factory farm to field. Plus a lot of organic fast-food yuppie green-washing processed foods are a joke, also.

I guess my latest rant is that agriculture of all kinds is now centralized and industrial, because suburbia has covered up the best local farm lands. And that has benefited the super wealthy.

[SeaGypsy]

I spent a few years living in central Australia, in the desert. The concerns about aquaponic dependence on solar are misconceived. If you have a source of clean groundwater and a header tank, you could conceivably use pedal power to head the tank, if there is no sun or wind or grid power. Also there is merit in choosing an extremely desolate place for a doomstead IMO. If and when it gets to zombie stage, the zombies will be scavenging farmlands first, after they have cleaned out what food remains in suburbia. If you have 100 miles of drylands between you and the nearest agriculture, the chances of surviving past this stage are pretty good IMO.

[vtsnowedin]

If and when it gets to zombie stage, the zombies will be scavenging farmlands first, after they have cleaned out what food remains in suburbia. If you have 100 miles of drylands between you and the nearest agriculture, the chances of surviving past this stage are pretty good IMO.

Good point but will the Zombies know what to do with a grain bin full of wheat of shelled corn? For that matter how many check dependant people out there have any clue about how to take a walking :chicken,pig,cow or sheep from walking ,to their dinner plate? Most people today have never even caught a trout and fried it up.
I expect a lot of senseless violence and death over food while surrounded by plentiful supplies that the people nearby don't recognise as food or know how to eat it.

[Loki]

SeaGypsy, they were actually in suburban Phoenix, but your point is well taken. No idea why they live in Phoenix, presumably because of a job, but like I said, I think they are doing an admirable job of doing what they can with what they have. They moved into a house with an old swimming pool and instead of doing what most folks do in AZ, fill it and go swimming, they created a greenhouse and aquaponics system.

The show has featured a wide range of preppers, from apartment dwelling urbanites to suburbanites to doomsteaders. One of my favs was the "Doris Day of Doom" (there's a Youtube vid by that name)---she's a poster over at Sustainable Country, nice lady.

There are a lot of good ideas in the show, and it's cool to be able to see everyone's preps and different styles of prepping. Hard to get a good idea of what other folks are doing just reading about it on an internet board. Don't agree with everyone's approach (the bomb shelter guy comes to mind), but to each their own.

[pstarr]

I spent a few years living in central Australia, in the desert. The concerns about aquaponic dependence on solar are misconceived. If you have a source of clean groundwater and a header tank, you could conceivably use pedal power to head the tank, if there is no sun or wind or grid power. Also there is merit in choosing an extremely desolate place for a doomstead IMO. If and when it gets to zombie stage, the zombies will be scavenging farmlands first, after they have cleaned out what food remains in suburbia. If you have 100 miles of drylands between you and the nearest agriculture, the chances of surviving past this stage are pretty good IMO.

by "head the tank" I assume you mean "keep it filled?" But that is not the only electric demand. Aquaponic setups need temperature control, filtration, ph balance, and especially O2. This requires constant electric pump drawing substantial current.

As for zombie and doomsteads? All they require is a head shot. No really. If things really deteriorate that far, I do not expect hordes of hungry angry-biker-zombies to come ravaging the countyside. per se. Experience tells us that poor hungry depressed people don't leave the city, rather they migrate toward it. And they tend to put their hands out in a plead. Rather than a threat.

[vtsnowedin]

. Experience tells us that poor hungry depressed people don't leave the city, rather they migrate toward it. And they tend to put their hands out in a plead. Rather than a threat.

Care to site an example of that experience? None comes to mind but we all have limits. Sad thought that, moving into the center and pleading for what can not be there. The next scene is awful to imagine.

[SeaGypsy]

Of course there will be seasonal variations in different climate zones enabling use of various plant and animal species around the cycle, where there is one. Tropical deserts only have a few degrees variation between winter/ summer, wet/ dry seasons. Choosing species with care and planning for minimal energy inputs would be part of a sensible aquaponics set up at home or on a micro-community scale. Commercial mass farm operations for a market maximization strategy are a completely different ball game. Lots of potential there too, on the way down, IMO.

[Pretorian]

Experience tells us that poor hungry depressed people don't leave the city, rather they migrate toward it. And they tend to put their hands out in a plead. Rather than a threat.

Yes, and their new overlord sends troops to the countryside so he can give them what they want. Experience didn't tell you that?

[Shaved Monkey]

"head the tank" I assume you mean "keep it filled?" But that is not the only electric demand. Aquaponic setups need temperature control, filtration, ph balance, and especially O2. This requires constant electric pump drawing substantial current.

Solar pump (or pedal) to feed a header tank
Header tank is a tank on stilts
which then gravity feeds.
Tropical or Subtropical Australia its pick your species for the climate
no need to heat
Temperate you go Trout in Winter Barra in summer maybe with some solar hot water in the line.
In the US and the rest of the world you go Taliapia (illegal in Australia ,but the local dams are full of them)
The pump may not be necessary if you have a large enough tank gravity feeding
except to fill it but that is solar or pedal.
Filtration is through the plants
PH is experience and plant to fish ratios
O2 is water flow, fish to plant ratio and stocking rates.
Even an on the grid doesn't need a constant pump just a pump on a timer coming off and on as required.

The guy in the videos system was excellent Its one of the most closed loop systems I have seen.
The major problem with not going Talipia is the constant requirement of baby fish.
Talipia is virtually a bullet proof swimming rabbit. (thats why its banned in Australia because it would out compete every local fish.)

[SeaGypsy]

You are out bush hey shaved? What do you reckon the chances of a raid would be out where you are? If you aren't selling anything and you don't have any 'unusual' grid requirement? Unless the place catches fire your chances of seeing the authoritahs are virtually nil.

[Shaved Monkey]

Isolated coastal 1.5 hours from the nearest regional town by car

Slim
Fines are massive though.
If TSHTF its good to know you could go Taliapi though
for now no
We have a fish breeding farm not that far away, so when I set my system up it will be Sleepy Cod , Jade/Silver Perch and Red Claw
all great eating/bartering, Cod is slow growing the Perch is quick
main use of aquaponics is super quick growing vegies, fish are just cream.
The sea is only 10/15 minute walk away,river is 10/15 minute bike ride, so I could go fishing,crabbing, prawning,oystering there if I need too.

[SeaGypsy]

Red claw yabbie (freshwater cray) are super popular these days, legal most places. Yes I hears Aussie Perch are the next best to Tilapia, which are a horrid pest in tropical waterways up north. I think they are going to follow the cane toad quickly across the Savannah though, with the good wets we have had the last few years. These laws will end up as meaningless as having laws against pet cane toads would be.

Loki the main SWIM who taught me about aquaponics reckoned it was the best way to grow medical cannabis. His set up (?) in an industrial shed in a large factory complex. He uses natural light and aquaponics and gets way more out than he has to put in. He promises me it is possible to start from growing lichen and fungi and go all the way through with only water, sunlight and energy to move the water around, ending up with fish, salad, fruit, herbs, grains, poultry in a completely closed system with no other inputs. This is so close to claiming to know the whereabouts of the Holy Grail, I prefer to wait until I have the opportunity to see it proven or prove it to myself.

[pstarr]

its only a closed system if you shit, piss, and breath in it. And throw your body into the tank as you die. But then if you do all that, the cholera will open the system right back up.

I love closed systems, Living Machines, elegance, efficiency as much as the next person. but i believe rational population control is really more practical for all of us, working together, as a society and one people. oh. right. this is a doomer thread.

[davep]

I'm not much of an aquaponics fan. For me it's an extension of the "soil as an inert recipient for added nutrients" approach.

I much prefer having living soil and diversity, but I guess you need a lot more space for that.

[pstarr]

I'm not much of an aquaponics fan. For me it's an extension of the "soil as an inert recipient for added nutrients" approach.

I much prefer having living soil and diversity, but I guess you need a lot more space for that.

I don't believe aquaponics (or hydroponics) may be certified organic, which is all about soil health and a living balanced ecology. Aquaponics mimics a balanced ecology. is that enough?

As for space; you still have to feed the fish chow grown outside the system on some land. So that is additional space that must be accounted for. It's all a question of calories, protein, nutrients, NPK, and the appropriate (for my climate, land configuration, money) conversion from soil/water/sun to necessary human nutrition. The critical nutritional issue is GLA, omega-3, and vitamin B. What is required of the homestead to produce these?

I would prefer a mix of chickens, rabbits, and goats but I'm less squeasmish killing fish. I am very interested in aquaponics, and hope to try the system in my new hoop greenhouse. Tilapia in the summer and trout in the winter. Raising the young is the hard part I guess.

[SeaGypsy]

I am yet to see it proven, but the proponents of fully closed loop aquaponics reckon you are wrong about 'having to' bring in nutrients. The primary nutrient is the variety of micro-organisms grown in the gravel beds, feeding on air, water, minerals in the gravel base and micro nutrients in ordinary dust.

[Shaved Monkey]

To close the food loop, its rabbit/guinea pig poo, duck weed, worms, soldier fly larva,maggots and bugs.
Solar lights ,and solar powered bug wackers hanging over the system will keep the bug food coming.
Hanging some meat over the system will bring a stream of maggots.
Soldier flies maggots can be caught and self harvest in a pod.
Worms in the grow beds control solids and provide additional fish food.

Its more "organic" than regular soil organics because there cant be anything put in the system that will kill your fish.
Great for people with really crap soil and limited water too.

Downside; it requires knowledge and skills, getting baby fish,power input, set up cost and constant monitoring/maintenance.
Upside;the fastest most productive way of growing organic fruit/veg in a small area, if you are limited for space water and have really poor soils. Plus fish, crayfish and fresh water mussels.

[vtsnowedin]

I watched a couple of episodes today that my DVR recorded for me. Haven't come across the aquaponics episode as yet. They make each prepper state what possible disaster or doom they are prepping for then at the end tell the audience what the "experts" think are the chances of that particular doom coming to pass. Usually infinitesimally low so it makes the preppers seem foolish. What they don't seem to realise is that a prepper is prepared for whatever might happen not just their greatest concern. No matter where you live hurricanes ,floods,blizzards earthquakes civil unrest are all possible and though the chances of any particular disaster coming to you are very small the chances of something bad happening from the possible list within a few years much higher.

[SeaGypsy]

To close the food loop, its rabbit/guinea pig poo, duck weed, worms, soldier fly larva,maggots and bugs.
Solar lights ,and solar powered bug wackers hanging over the system will keep the bug food coming.
Hanging some meat over the system will bring a stream of maggots.
Soldier flies maggots can be caught and self harvest in a pod.
Worms in the grow beds control solids and provide additional fish food.

Its more "organic" than regular soil organics because there cant be anything put in the system that will kill your fish.
Great for people with really crap soil and limited water too.

Downside; it requires knowledge and skills, getting baby fish,power input, set up cost and constant monitoring/maintenance.
Upside;the fastest most productive way of growing organic fruit/veg in a small area, if you are limited for space water and have really poor soils. Plus fish, crayfish and fresh water mussels.

Yeah I forgot about the bugs part. Seems like awesome fun, besides productive.