Dominoes begin to fall - small Balkan sparks world conflict

[btu2012]

dinopello: Some within the EU want to "isolate" the Balkan Muslim element into a Muslim enclave (Kosovo plus Albania, who are likely to merge in the medium future).

Btu

[EnergyUnlimited]

I really don't know what's going on here but I figure there must me some more complex diplomatic act going on. Note, that I do not assume there is some wise policy going on, just that there is something going on.

That is a simple American plan relying on destroying of existing global order.

Essentially it is calling for superpowers to start building their influence zones.

[btu2012]

Essentially it is calling for superpowers to start building their influence zones.

I doubt that this plan has the best interests of Kosovars at heart.

Kosovo and Albania are unlikely to be successfully integrated within the EU, they will probably end up in a rather bad position. Their celebrations are likely to turn to tears in the medium term.

This enclave is likely to end up being the poorest region within Europe.

Btu

[Tyler_JC]

Essentially it is calling for superpowers to start building their influence zones.

I doubt that this plan has the best interests of Kosovars at heart.

Kosovo and Albania are unlikely to be successfully integrated within the EU, they will probably end up in a rather bad position. Their celebrations are likely to turn to tears in the medium term.

This enclave is likely to end up being the poorest region within Europe.

Btu

I'd say it already is the poorest region of Europe.

In my European Union Politics class, Albania was the punchline to nearly every joke.

In my notes I'd routinely write things like, "France decided to change its domestic economic policy in the 1980s in order avoid turning into Albania."

Albania was ruled by an absolute lunatic (Enver Hoxha) for 40 years. When Capitalism came to the country, it quickly turned into Anarchy.

Half of Albanians work in agriculture. Unemployment is well over 30% and most economic activity goes on in the "gray market".

Kosovo might be free, but that might just mean the freedom to be poor.

[btu2012]

Kosovo might be free, but that might just mean the freedom to be poor.

My point exactly. Would the EU want to deal with such a basket case as one of their own ?

The EU can now chew on the rest of the Balkans, and (greater) Albania can go the way of Burundi.

At least that's what the authors of this plan seem to think.

Btu

[btu2012]

And if it did then US administration would do anything to prevent it working.

It has been planned for years by some within the EU together with the US.

Greater Albania and Serbia are "problem regions" for the EU, but Serbia has more potential and strategic importance.

The map drawers seem to have overlooked the collateral effects of this brilliant plan.

Btu

[btu2012]

Energy Unlimited... I was thinking the same thing. What he said actually made sense! First time for everything, I suppose... lol.

Do I detect a certain level of bitterness ?

Btu

[EnergyUnlimited]

The map drawers seem to have overlooked the collateral effects of this brilliant plan.

Btu

Yep, they didn't think about Muslim mini-states emerging somewhere around Paris. ...or about Turkish enclaves in Germany

Now seriously, this move is a blow against one of core EU policies, eg integration of immigrants within host nation.
You should expect increased hostility towards immigrants in EU and in particular this concerns member states hosting larger minorities.
This will give new lease of life to racism.

[Cid_Yama]

<i>I can understand the direct contradictions with this, but then what do you think were the motivations for supporting Kosovo independence ? Was it to appease Saudi or Turkey ? I really don't know what's going on here but I figure there must me some more complex diplomatic act going on.</i>

It was done in an attempt to block this.

<b>Russia signs Serbia, wins "pipeline war" with EU</b>

Russia won the right on Friday to route a major gas supply route to Europe through its ally Serbia, a move analysts described as marking a Kremlin victory in a "pipeline war" with the European Union.

The gas agreement, signed in the Kremlin before President Vladimir Putin and visiting Serbian leaders, alarmed the United States because it increased Moscow's control over energy supplies to Europe and could undermine a rival EU project.

"The Kremlin has played a very smart and effective game over the past two years, effectively winning a pipeline war with the European Union."

The United States believes the deal with Serbia, which followed a similar agreement with Bulgaria, is deeply worrying, according to a confidential Serbian government document obtained by Reuters minuting discussions between Washington and Belgrade.

"The U.S. side warned about the political influence Moscow would gain by controlling energy resources in Serbia and the region.

"They were especially concerned with Bulgaria's decision to join the deal with Gazprom, because it undermines attempts to diversify European gas supplies."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/0801 ... rbia_col_1

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7195522.stm

[mekrob]

So when people compare Israel/Palestine to Kosovo and Serbia, doesn't anyone else think that maybe they are comparing them falsely? Perhaps if you side with Kosovo, then you should also be siding with Israel and not necessarily with Palestine?

Kosovo, as has been mentioned time and time again, came into existence as an Albanian state because of rapid growth of Albanians. This growth came in large part due to breeding.

Israel, the Jewish state, came into existence through the rapid growth, both demographically and economically, of European Jews and Middle Eastern Jews (although the latter came later, usually after the declaration of statehood). This was coupled with voluntary expulsions as well as forced expulsions of Palestinians, much like Serbs were forcibly kicked out of Kosovo by Albanians in many instances.

Further, when the Palestinian population inside Israel soon began to become too large whereby the Jewish population would be make weaker and thus have less control of the state, they would open the floodgates on occasion to outside Jews and "Jews" (thus the Neo-Nazis that are citizens of Israel).

So on one hand, we have Kosovo that was taken over by Albanians through breeding, immigration and reductions of ethnic Serbs and we also have Israel which was taken over by Jews through influxes of immigration (largely), breeding (slightly) and reductions in the numbers of non-Jews.

Similar cases, no? Perhaps the precedent was set before Kosovo and likely before Israel as well.

Just a few thoughts about two complex situations.

[btu2012]

Yep, they didn't think about Muslim mini-states emerging somewhere around Paris. ...or about Turkish enclaves in Germany

Now seriously, this move is a blow against one of core EU policies, eg integration of immigrants within host nation.
You should expect increased hostility towards immigrants in EU and in particular this concerns member states hosting larger minorities. This will give new lease of life to racism.

Here we agree. It's almost as dumb as a policy of nuking other states to prevent them from acquiring nukes.

Btu

[btu2012]

Similar cases, no? Perhaps the precedent was set before Kosovo and likely before Israel as well.

I don't remember that European Jews ever declared independence on the territory of a European state.

Btu

[mekrob]

I don't remember that European Jews ever declared independence on the territory of a European state.

So it has to be on a European state for them to have similarities? I'm saying they are similar in that foreign entities took over regions of a different ethnicity (as well as religion, largely) and then became independent states.

It wouldn't have to be in Europe to have an effect upon European politics. The declaration of independence in Kosovo is ringing around the world, even to Taiwan. Just goes to show that you don't have to be part of a continent to have effects upon that continent.

[btu2012]

Poor Albanians. They suffered through millennia of pogroms and oppression, and through a massive genocide attempt aimed at exterminating their whole ethnicity.

Just like the Jews.

Btu

[EnergyUnlimited]

Yep, they didn't think about Muslim mini-states emerging somewhere around Paris. ...or about Turkish enclaves in Germany

Now seriously, this move is a blow against one of core EU policies, eg integration of immigrants within host nation.
You should expect increased hostility towards immigrants in EU and in particular this concerns member states hosting larger minorities. This will give new lease of life to racism.

Here we agree. It's almost as dumb as a policy of nuking other states to prevent them from acquiring nukes.

Btu

Dumb or not, but Americans are seriously considering actual testing of such policy in Iran right now.
There is some chance that we will see results within a year or two, so we will have more hard data to work with.

[mekrob]

Poor Albanians. They suffered through millennia of pogroms and oppression, and through a massive genocide attempt aimed at exterminating their whole ethnicity.

Just like the Jews.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. No matter what happened to the Jews, that doesn't make it right to apply different rules to what they did compared to what Albanians did.

I'm simply comparing what the Jews did and what Albanians did. I'm not saying they are right or they are wrong. I'm saying they are very similar in what they did and to an extent how they did it, although there are significant differences on that. What happened to Jews or didn't happen to Albanians does not change the fact that what they both did is quite similar. But you seem to be taking the Planted Agent method of discussing a topic by bringing up completely irrelevant aspects.

Now what exactly does the Holocaust against the Jews or not against the Albanians have to do with this topic?

[EnergyUnlimited]

Similar cases, no? Perhaps the precedent was set before Kosovo and likely before Israel as well.

I don't remember that European Jews ever declared independence on the territory of a European state.

Btu

They were clever here.
They knew that there is no chance of success in Europe, so they declared independence in Palestine.
That is about as good as if Kurds declared independence in Spain and seized Cordoba as their capitol.

[btu2012]

That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. No matter what happened to the Jews, that doesn't make it right to apply different rules to what they did compared to what Albanians did.

I think that the situations of Jews and Albanians in Europe were quite different, so perhaps the motivations for their actions were also different. I am not aware that Albanians were discriminated against in Jugoslavia or Serbia.

Now what exactly does the Holocaust against the Jews or not against the Albanians have to do with this topic?

The Holocaust gave many Jews a rather good reason to emigrate to Israel, and the history of pogroms was a prime motivator for Zionism. It seems to me that the Albanians in Kosovo don't have a comparable history. Not to mention that Palestine used to be a Jewish kingdom a long time ago, while Albanians have no historic claim to Kosovo.

But perhaps all that is irrelevant.

In any case the formation of Israel (starting with Zionism and the Balfour declaration) is quite a different story from what is happening in Kosovo. The Serbs/Jugoslavs offered the Kosovo Albanians rather wide local autonomy already beginning with Tito's period, so they have weak complaints against Serbia. Their situation was never comparable with that of European Jewry.

Blacks in the US have a much stronger complaint than Kosovo Albanians, but I don't see them attempting to create an independent state out of Louisiana. By the way, how would the US react to such a move ?

Btu

[Cid_Yama]

<b>Palestine to declare independence</b>

Yasser Abed Rabbo, a top aide to Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas said, "Kosovo is not better than us. We deserved independence even before Kosovo, and we ask for the backing of the United States and the European Union for our independence."

But another negotiator and senior official, Saeb Erekat, disagreed arguing that the Palestine Liberation Organisation had already declared independence in 1988.

"Now we need real independence, not a declaration. We need real independence by ending the occupation. We are not Kosovo. We are under Israeli occupation and for independence we need to acquire independence," Mr Erekat said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7254434.stm

[mos6507]

maybe that's the plan, every world recession ended with a world war.
and now recession's upon us again, war won't be too far away.

Did the neocons also plan the bombing of the US embassy? I guess you can find a rationalization to believe anything.