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Does the world see America as Exceptional?

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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 13:05:55

Another of your strawmen.

But they must reject the Democrat narrative that they are victims of the white man and go out and work


Your strawman seems to be Blacks are "lazy" and don't work, but only because Democrats tell them they are victims of the white man.

There are so many fallacies there, it's hard to know where to begin.

1. Blacks work, many 2 jobs.

2. Blacks do not have equal opportunity to work, even today. Most jobs available to them do not pay a living wage, and for black males, the opportunity to work is lower than for any other race.

3. Blacks HAVE been victims and exploited since they arrived here as slaves. It is not some political narrative.

4. 'Blacks are lazy' is a stereotype that bears no resemblance to reality. It is a racial prejudice.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Cog » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 13:14:01

Your Democrat policies have done nothing to help blacks except to destroy the black family. Before 1964 and all of the social programs you Democrats invented, black crimes rates and out of wedlock birth rates were comparable to whites.

Look at the crime rates of any Democrat run big city(which is almost all of them) and see what your policies have brought to the black man.

LBJ got exactly what he wanted. A group of folks dependent on the government who are kept down by the exact same Democrats who want to keep them permanently on the Democrat plantation.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 13:14:32

"Will "Humanity" send in a Seal teem six to haul your chestnuts out of the fire if the need arose?" No maybe not but it is only with a sense of being human and displaying our better qualities and getting out of this group mentality that has so infected our evolution that we can even hope to make it through the bottleneck that is coming. Make no mistake about it we cannot afford to be divided if we hope to have a fighting chance of not becoming extinct.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Cog » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 13:28:00

I shall return soon. I must attend the funeral of a successful businessman.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 13:31:58

Cog wrote:LOL Ethnic cleansing. You need to look at your communist buddies if you want to see who really engages in genocide on a regular basis. Americans are amateurs by comparison.

Cog plays the "We're not as bad as Stalin" card, keeping the "We're not as bad as Hitler" card up his sleeve.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 13:41:39

Blah, blah, blah. You seem to be trying to change the topic, Cog.

The system of exploitation in this country is rigged against the American people. Barriers have been erected against small business survival, let alone competition.

There is little 'opportunity'.

With Wage Slavery, they don't even have to house, feed, or care for the slaves.

FDR said it best, and it is even more true today.

To understand the root cause of where the American People find themselves today one must look no further than FDR's speech which sums up the history of power in America.

A Rendezvous With Destiny
FDR Speech before the 1936 Democratic National Convention

June 27, 1936


The age of machinery, of railroads; of steam and electricity; the telegraph and the radio; mass production, mass distribution - all of these combined to bring forward a new civilization and with it a new problem for those who sought to remain free.

For out of this modern civilization economic royalists carved new dynasties. New kingdoms were built upon concentration of control over material things. Through new uses of corporations, banks and securities, new machinery of industry and agriculture, of labor and capital - all undreamed of by the Fathers - the whole structure of modern life was impressed into this royal service.

There was no place among this royalty for our many thousands of small-businessmen and merchants who sought to make a worthy use of the American system of initiative and profit. They were no more free than the worker or the farmer. Even honest and progressive-minded men of wealth, aware of their obligation to their generation, could never know just where they fitted into this dynastic scheme of things.

It was natural and perhaps human that the privileged princes of these new economic dynasties, thirsting for power, reached out for control over government itself. They created a new despotism and wrapped it in the robes of legal sanction. In its service new mercenaries sought to regiment the people, their labor, and their property. And as a result the average man once more confronts the problem that faced the Minute Man.

The hours men and women worked, the wages they received, the conditions of their labor - these had passed beyond the control of the people, and were imposed by this new industrial dictatorship. The savings of the average family, the capital of the small-businessmen, the investments set aside for old age - other people's money - these were tools which the new economic royalty used to dig itself in.

Those who tilled the soil no longer reaped the rewards which were their right. The small measure of their gains was decreed by men in distant cities.

Throughout the nation, opportunity was limited by monopoly. Individual initiative was crushed in the cogs of a great machine. The field open for free business was more and more restricted. Private enterprise, indeed, became too private. It became privileged enterprise, not free enterprise.

An old English judge once said: "Necessitous men are not free men." Liberty requires opportunity to make a living - a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality. A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor - other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

Against economic tyranny such as this, the American citizen could appeal only to the organized power of government. The collapse of 1929 showed up the despotism for what it was.

The royalists of the economic order have conceded that political freedom was the business of the government, but they have maintained that economic slavery was nobody's business. They granted that the government could protect the citizen in his right to vote, but they denied that the government could do anything to protect the citizen in his right to work and his right to live.

Today we stand committed to the proposition that freedom is no half-and-half affair. If the average citizen is guaranteed equal opportunity in the polling place, he must have equal opportunity in the market place.

These economic royalists complain that we seek to overthrow the institutions of America. What they really complain of is that we seek to take away their power. Our allegiance to American institutions requires the overthrow of this kind of power. In vain they seek to hide behind the flag and the Constitution. In their blindness they forget what the flag and the Constitution stand for. Now, as always, they stand for democracy, not tyranny; for freedom, not subjection; and against a dictatorship by mob rule and the over-privileged alike.

The brave and clear platform adopted by this convention, to which I heartily subscribe, sets forth that government in a modern civilization has certain inescapable obligations to its citizens, among which are protection of the family and the home, the establishment of a democracy of opportunity, and aid to those overtaken by disaster.

But the resolute enemy within our gates is ever ready to beat down our words unless in greater courage we will fight for them.

link

The growth of oligarchy in America happened throughout the 20th Century and is a matter of historical fact.

Progressivism is the movement that arose to fight back, and it's thread extends back all the way to the end of the 19th century. That movement is not dead and is represented in Congress by the Progressive Caucus. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) is the leading spokesperson for the Progressive movement.
Last edited by Cid_Yama on Sat 16 Jan 2016, 14:01:46, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Quinny » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 13:44:06

I just hope it's Donald Trump he's gone to see off! Apparently he meets the criteria for successful despite screwing his creditors on several occasions. ;)
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 14:00:04

Or about this speech by JFK warning about the international oligarchs calling them/it a "Ruthless and Monolithic conspiracy" It stands to reason that they are international in so much as every country has an entrenched elite and greed and power lust knows no boundaries. Tell me if this speech does not offer a clear picture of the type of world that has been evolving ever since this speech. It does. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhkjYJAHCjM. Oh and also google quotes from Thomas Jefferson warning about the financial elites, bankers etc.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 14:24:38

Cog wrote:Religion pisses them off.
It's not like progressives are barging into your churches a la Pussy Riot and protesting your preachings.

I guess you mean certain preferred flavours of religion, since some religions piss you off. Could you elaborate on how religion figures in American Exceptionalism ?

Cog wrote:They spend all their days being in a rage about something or other.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 14:29:43

This is going to get off into politics, but I won't let it pass unchallenged. If the Democrats really believed what they speak, they sure do suck at writing law that matches their speach. Even when holding majorities, and the presidency; they write a health care law that empowers ultra large insurance companies and cripples anything small, or anything governmental. A law that incentivizes expansion of cost and expansion of control.

Whenever they write law to protect environment, or labor, or whatever, its written in a way that makes it trivial for the large and well-lawyered to comply with (or challenge if they wish), and creates crippling costs, and no survivable possibility of challenge for small or medium enterprises to do anything interesting in the marketplace.

So, while I do oppose economic oligarchy, or at least oppose law that places them in an unfairly advantaged position over economic challengers, I do not believe the Democrat party opposes them; they just have their favorite oligarchs, and those oligarchs are not the same folks as the favorite oligarchs of the Republican party.

That said, i don't think the oligarchs are evil in any way, rather, they are simply pursuing their economic self interest in a rational and efficient way. Government should not be used to select which oligarchs get the biggest prize; government should instead be focused on insuring that the small can challenge the powerful without disproportionate personal risk.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 14:34:34

The problem is that Government and Corporations have become one in their protection and perpetuation of the status quo.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Lore » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 14:52:23

Being a progressive is not necessarily also being a Democrat. Bernie is a mixed progressive, so was Theodore Roosevelt.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 16:03:14

Keith_McClary wrote:
Cog wrote:Religion pisses them off.
It's not like progressives are barging into your churches a la Pussy Riot and protesting your preachings.


Time wrote:Houston, with its left-leaning, openly gay mayor governing an influential conservative and evangelical base, is a city politically divided. That division has been made clear in recent days after the city subpoenaed sermons of several pastors who oppose a recently passed equal rights ordinance for gay and transgender residents. The subpoenas are an attempt by city officials to determine how the preachers instructed their congregants in their push to get the law repealed.

The city’s subpoenas targeted sermons and speeches by five Houston pastors with ties to religious leaders attempting to repeal the Houston Equal Rights Ordinance, which bars businesses from discriminating against gay and transgender residents. The law, passed into law by Mayor Annise Parker in May, is often derided as a “bathroom bill,” because it allows transgender individuals to choose whether to use a male or female restroom.

This summer, a group of local pastors and religious leaders began gathering signatures in an attempt to get a referendum to repeal the law on this November’s ballot. But City Attorney David Feldman blocked that attempt by throwing out thousands of signatures he said didn’t meet the criteria to qualify, incensing groups opposed to the rule.

http://time.com/3514166/houston-pastors ... ubpoenaed/
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 16:09:43

Cog wrote:Because we believe the pursuit of happiness is directly related to free markets and capitalism, in a few short hundreds of years, we have transformed the United States into an economic and military super-power unrivaled by any.

My military scorecard since WWI hasn't shown anywhere near the "unrivaled" success you claim.

We nearly lost WWII. If the encryption technology we managed to steal from the Germans hadn't been cracked under the direction of the British, we probably would have lost.

Remember Vietnam? We got our ass handed to us in that one, after trying to carpet bomb much of the country.

Korea? North Korea seems to be less than a stellar result from that one.

And what have we gotten for our multiple $trillions spent in military interventionism over the past decade, except for lots of hatred and losing much of our credibility? (We did kill LOTS of civilians, prove we can drone people (but not necessarily hit the ones we think we're aiming at), and turn certain Middle Eastern countries into what appear to be even bigger messes than they were. Woo Hoo! (I'd have rather paid down debt, or invested in education and/or infrastructure, FWIW)).

Now, if bankrupting ourselves on the way to losing our former credibility is "success", then by all means, chalk one up for the U.S. team.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 16:16:53

Quinny wrote:I just hope it's Donald Trump he's gone to see off! Apparently he meets the criteria for successful despite screwing his creditors on several occasions. ;)

As one who tends to lean conservative on financial issues and liberal on social issues, I can't get my mind around why this guy is such a hit with conservatives, given his overall business "mixed at best" track record.

Apparently if you hit certain political hot buttons your competitors won't, that earns a complete pass on all prior transgressions. (Hell, it's a wonder Carly Fiorina isn't a regular folk hero for receiving a $40 MILLION payout for the Compaq/HP merger FIASCO she ran, since she's a woman AND talks the hard right wing talk on certain issues.)

To me, the fact that our system can't seem to find ANYONE to run for POTUS that deserves to have the country enthusiastic about them is telling. To me it says more about how we made a big mess and don't know how to clean it up than that we're exceptional. (I can't say exceptionally bad, given the state of the world in general).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 16:27:56

Keith_McClary wrote:
Cog wrote:From its earliest conception, America is a country founded to protect our rights and liberties.
For white folks, anyway.

I think Family Guy pointed this out in an EXCEPTIONAL way: :-D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chmQXcE8zeU

"So let's go see the USA. They'll treat you right unless you're black or gay or Cherokee!"

If it weren't so true, it wouldn't be so shameful. :oops:
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Cog » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 16:47:06

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Keith_McClary wrote:
Cog wrote:From its earliest conception, America is a country founded to protect our rights and liberties.
For white folks, anyway.

I think Family Guy pointed this out in an EXCEPTIONAL way: :-D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chmQXcE8zeU

"So let's go see the USA. They'll treat you right unless you're black or gay or Cherokee!"

If it weren't so true, it wouldn't be so shameful. :oops:


Because living as a black in Africa is so much superior to a black living in America. LOL Good one guys.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 17:42:18

Are you proposing that that the kidnapping and enslavement of blacks was for their own good? I don't see where anyone mentioned Africa.

Actually blacks live happy and fulfilling lives in much of Africa and better lives than most blacks in the US.(You do understand that Africa is a continent, and there are many different nations there, right?) And blacks in just about any western nation live better lives than here.

I don't get your point. Are you just having a hard time keeping your racism from leaking out?

For instance what does how LBJ felt about blacks have to do with this discussion?

And you also seem to keep trying to make this an issue about Democrats, even making the mistaken assumption I am one.

I'm sure I've stated on here before I'm an Eisenhower Republican, a Progressive Republican. Just because the corporate fascists have usurped the Republican Party, doesn't mean people like me accept that usurpation.

I have had to support Democratic causes that align with my beliefs to try to restore the country to a place where Progressive Republicans can once again exist. That in itself should tell you that something dreadful has happened to our country, where even President Eisenhower would no longer be accepted in his own party.

Most Democrats are not Progressives. There is a big difference between Liberals and Progressives. Progressivism is a very specific thing. Fighting against the Oligarchic Corporatists, or as FDR called them the Economic Royalists, that have usurped the Republican Party and our nation, and seeking social justice for ALL of our citizens.

If I have to make the nation Democratic to defeat the usurpers, so be it. But I have not changed. My principles remain the same.

But, if by calling me a Democrat, you mean I am not on the side of the Oligarchic Fascist Corporatists, you got me there, they are the enemy.

As for PRESIDENT Obama, he pretended to be a Progressive, but in the end proved to be a Liberal Corporatist.

For me there is little difference between Fascist, Conservative and Liberal Corporatists. They all support and serve the usurpers. They are all the enemy.
Last edited by Cid_Yama on Sat 16 Jan 2016, 18:37:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 18:26:28

Tanada wrote:
Keith_McClary wrote:
Cog wrote:Religion pisses them off.
It's not like progressives are barging into your churches a la Pussy Riot and protesting your preachings.


Time wrote:Houston, with its left-leaning, openly gay mayor governing an influential conservative and evangelical base, is a city politically divided. That division has been made clear in recent days after the city subpoenaed sermons of several pastors who oppose a recently passed equal rights ordinance for gay and transgender residents. The subpoenas are an attempt by city officials to determine how the preachers instructed their congregants in their push to get the law repealed.

The city’s subpoenas targeted sermons and speeches by five Houston pastors with ties to religious leaders attempting to repeal the Houston Equal Rights Ordinance, which bars businesses from discriminating against gay and transgender residents. The law, passed into law by Mayor Annise Parker in May, is often derided as a “bathroom bill,” because it allows transgender individuals to choose whether to use a male or female restroom.

This summer, a group of local pastors and religious leaders began gathering signatures in an attempt to get a referendum to repeal the law on this November’s ballot. But City Attorney David Feldman blocked that attempt by throwing out thousands of signatures he said didn’t meet the criteria to qualify, incensing groups opposed to the rule.

http://time.com/3514166/houston-pastors ... ubpoenaed/

My point exactly. Progressives don't care much what they say in their sermons on religious matters. It's when they get involved in political organising to promote their bronze age social agenda.

Here they have initiated a lawsuit over a political matter. When you do that you should expect subpoenas.
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Re: Does the world see America as Exceptional?

Unread postby sidzepp » Sat 16 Jan 2016, 18:52:12

One principle that the revolutionary generation espoused and has been completely overlooked as we march blindly down the path to oblivion in our pursuit of materialism is the value that was placed on education. We have surrendered that notion and turned the responsibility over to mass media to indoctrinate us. There is nothing exceptional about us anymore as we continue to live the past instead of looking towards the future.
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