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Do I have a right to feel safe?

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 16 Oct 2015, 20:08:25

newfie - A valid point IMHO. So let's focus more specifically: we (most of us) believe we have the right to own a firearm. So from that point are there obligations that go along with that right? A hint of the Rockman's position: YES...a f*cking sh*tload of obligations. LOL.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 16 Oct 2015, 22:06:23

From what I know, various rights may be abridged for various reasons. This explains the presence of the Second, Art. 1 Sec. 8, the Militia Acts, etc.

Similar can be seen in other rights, as in the case of capital punishment.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 16 Oct 2015, 22:15:11

Looking at the issue across multiple data sets and countries might help:

"On Guns, America Stands Out"

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opini ... s-out.html

Also, in relation to previous points:

"The Second Amendment you don't know"

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/amen ... -1.1223900

Finally,

"The Secret History of Guns"

The Ku Klux Klan, Ronald Reagan, and, for most of its history, the NRA all worked to control guns. The Founding Fathers? They required gun ownership—and regulated it. And no group has more fiercely advocated the right to bear loaded weapons in public than the Black Panthers—the true pioneers of the modern pro-gun movement. In the battle over gun rights in America, both sides have distorted history and the law, and there’s no resolution in sight.


http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ns/308608/
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby Cog » Fri 16 Oct 2015, 23:07:23

Try the Australian model of gun confiscation(mandatory buybacks) and you will have a civil war in the USA. This is the model that Hillary Clinton is invoking as well as Obama. At least the left is now being honest about what they really want. That is confiscation by coercion and force.

In Hillary's own words:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JctBYrIaKvY

Even in the bluest of blue states like New York and Connecticut, their gun registration laws resulted in a compliance rate of around 20%. Do you really think if the next step is mandatory buy-backs(the Australian model) that it won't result in armed resistance in Red States?

As for me, I have zero intention of selling my gun to the government. No thanks, you didn't buy them originally so there is nothing for you to buy back. Go in peace but you won't be buying my guns or anyone's guns that I know.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 17 Oct 2015, 09:50:37

ROCKMAN wrote:newfie - A valid point IMHO. So let's focus more specifically: we (most of us) believe we have the right to own a firearm. So from that point are there obligations that go along with that right? A hint of the Rockman's position: YES...a f*cking sh*tload of obligations. LOL.


My point is we have ONLY obligations, and no rights. I know many want to argue the constitution, but I'd like to leave that aside for a bit and take a fesh look at it.

My u derstanding is that governments exist ONLY because they bring us peace and a better life. When governments fail at this they are open to reorganization (rebellion.). The "rights" and the associated "obligations" derive from the population agreeing to the rules of the government.

But there are further obligations with no rights attached. That is the obligation to hold the government to its side of the bargain and to not abuse the populace. So the populace has the OBLIGATION to make itself aware of the government actions, to unserstand it, to clearly tell the govnment when it it is failing. To do this you are obligated to be generally educated and awake and aware. You are also obligated to understand how to carry on. Intelligent discourse and argue a point without resulting to name calling.

It could be argued that a huge portion of our population has failed I the obligations, across the board. Our general education is abysmal, and all else flows from that.

So what happens when both the government and the general population have reniged on their obligations?

The individual is left with the obligation to his family and partner and the need to peruse that on the best way he knows. I think a lot of the rhetoric you hear on this board is reflective of this gut understanding of obligation. My questioning was to see if there was any decent alternative way forward. Given the fact that the country seems to be arming rather steadily it seems there is no viable alternative in the US. Not apsayong anywhere else is better. They may have even less power to bring the government into line.

I don't like it, but it seems we are well down this path.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 17 Oct 2015, 17:12:21

newfie - So that leads to the obvious question: does not one has the right to obtain what he needs to meet those obligations? You have an obligation to protect your family but no right to the means to do so? You have the obligation to prevent your govt from becoming authoritarian to the point of extreme brutality (think Germany 1930s) but not the right to posses the means to do so? Or is that the cowardly excuse for not meeting your obligations: "Boo hoo...I couldn't do anything." LOL.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 17 Oct 2015, 21:11:52

Rock,

Again I don't think we have inherent rights. What rights we have come from what power we have obtained. No power, no right.

Understand I'm talking in the abstract. As a thought experiment. I'm an atheist, there is no God, there are no God given rights.

When one is speaking of God given rights he is saying God has the power to give rights.

So it goes on Earth, no power no rights. You want rights? You take power!

Theoretically our government represents our collective power and then dispenses rights for our mutual good.

Theoretically the government works for our mutual good and shares evenly.

Seems like some dents in those ideas.

To your example of the 1930's, the power to challenge the government was lost much earlier. The French charged the Bastille with pitchforks. The Germans did not because they were to some degree complicit with the government. The government promised the folks a better future and the population went along. Later they saw the error of their ways. A few years ago there was a book about how easy it was to get the average soldier to kill innocents. The Milgram experiments among others show the same trait in Americans. The Nazis promised more power to the common man, and he went along.

But then look at the race protests, how folks without guns took power for their own destiny. Or Ghandi.

It's easier with guns, but they are not the essential element. That essential element is understanding power and how to create it and use it.

For the common Joe, working by himself, a gun gives you the sense of power. Used in conjunction with an organized group it gives tremendous power. But the essential element is in the organization and cooperation of like minded individuals. Be they you survivalist buddies, or the drug gang down the street.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 17 Oct 2015, 21:29:05

Sorry if I seem muddle headed. I've not had this conversation before and am still working out these ideas.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 17 Oct 2015, 21:47:55

newfie - "Understand I'm talking in the abstract. As a thought experiment. I'm an atheist, there is no God, there are no God given rights." Me too...I'm a devout atheist. And I believe I have a right to live...don't you think you have aright to live? I also feel obligated to kill you if you try to take my right to life away from me. LOL.

But I agree this is as much a thought experiment then try to come up with clear answers. Consider those rare religious groups that don't believe they have the right to take a life even to save their own. Perhaps you're a member.

But the point I was trying to make to folks who feel the have an inherent right to own a weapon: what obligations come along with that right? IMHO there are very significant obligations which I won't go into right now. A hint: I see a great many failures to meet those obligations.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby Cog » Sun 18 Oct 2015, 05:54:35

@Newfie

When you stated, "Theoretically our government represents our collective power and then dispenses rights for our mutual good."

Before I have a brain aneurysm and flop around like a fish on PCP, I want to make sure that you really meant to say that and that you believe it to be true.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 18 Oct 2015, 07:39:41

"Theoretically our government represents our collective power and then dispenses rights for our mutual good." I assume that assumption would be meant for all govts unless one buys into American exceptionalism. Thus the Syrian govt of Assad would be attempting to represents the collective power of the Syrian people and dispense rights for their mutual good.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby Cog » Sun 18 Oct 2015, 07:58:45

Somewhere John Locke is turning over in his grave.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 18 Oct 2015, 09:06:22

Cog,

Only in the sense that the people have the power first.

The ultimate power rests with the people...as in "We the people..."

If the people do not keep an eye on government then shame on them.

If that doesn't clear it up for you consider this, mostly I agree with you.

Roc, if someone tries to take my or mine's life, they are in for a fight.
Last edited by Newfie on Sun 18 Oct 2015, 09:16:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby Cog » Sun 18 Oct 2015, 09:14:19

I am quite relieved by your response Newfie. I did not look forward to going on at length about natural rights, the philosophical underpinnings of the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution , and the Founders unshakeable belief that the purpose of government is to safeguard rights and not to dispense them like you would candy corn at Halloween. All of the above should have been covered in your high school, US government class.

By the way I hate candy corn but I will defend your right to partake of it.
Last edited by Cog on Sun 18 Oct 2015, 09:24:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 18 Oct 2015, 09:18:29

That's OK, I abrogate my right to my share! LOL

Funny, I was worried I'd be heard as too extreme in favor of personal rights.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby Cog » Sun 18 Oct 2015, 09:27:52

Newfie wrote:That's OK, I abrogate my right to my share! LOL

Funny, I was worried I'd be heard as too extreme in favor of personal rights.


Don't worry someone will be along shortly to dismiss the concept of individual rights in favor of some sort of collectivism like the Borg.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 18 Oct 2015, 09:35:16

I fear we are further down that path than I like, far further.

Blue tooth headsets. Facebook. Etc. :cry:

Talk about loss of individualism.

Our future generations are being assimilated before our eyes.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 18 Oct 2015, 09:49:26

Let's assume I have a right to feel safe. I also have a right to mobilility.

But some knuckle heads just can't drive right. Or sober. That makes me unsafe.

So what do I do? Confront the bad driver and tell him to get straight, that's not very safe. What to do?

So we (the people) create government, and we give them the obligation to set reasonable standards of driving. Then when someone violates these standards, fails to meet their obligations as a member of the society (we the people) the police sanction him in increasing ways, ultimately throwing him in jail.

By this logic the people have given the police the obligation to enforce. In assigning that obligation to the police we agree to a set of standards, and through adherence to those standards we have the the right to drive, and the obligation to behave.

So RIGHTS are privileges derived from assigned obligations and standards.

Chase it all back and it starts with our desire to feel safe and mobile and how we achieve that in a civil society.

Take away society, live on an island by yourself, and you can do any damn thing you like. No laws, no sins. Until some benighted bureaucrat comes along and taxes you.

Asimov had it pretty well nailed in his Bathroom Metaphor.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 18 Oct 2015, 09:52:41

Newfie wrote:I fear we are further down that path than I like, far further.

Blue tooth headsets. Facebook. Etc. :cry:

Talk about loss of individualism.

Our future generations are being assimilated before our eyes.


Be empowered to be assimilated. This sums up the digital age.
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Re: Do I have a right to feel safe?

Unread postby Revi » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 10:56:30

I think you have a right to feel safe, but it's like when you are a kayaker on the ocean. You might have the right of way, but are you going to press it against a gigantic boat? They might not even see you. Best to operate defensively, in my humble opinion.
Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
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