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Debt Ceiling

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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 11 Sep 2017, 05:46:31

ohanian wrote:Why don't Trump just print 20 coins at $1 trillion dollar a coin and deposit it at the Federal Reserve?

Debt? What debt? Trump can just pay back $20 trillions worth of debt with twenty coins

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9784898/US-seriously-considering-1-trillion-coin-to-pay-off-debt.html


Because it is a silly attempt at an accounting trick. Everyones knows the relative value of platinum is a microscopic fraction of a trillion dollars an ounce. Instead of pkatinum just printing 1 paper bill labled 20 Trillion would be just as (in)effective, and it would certainly be a lot more honest.

The better scheme would be to claim federal lands have a value of $20,000/acre, create transfer titles for a few million acres that could be put on the books as saleable property, then deposit those title certificates with the Fed. People will easily accept that property along the interstate passing through a federal forest is worth $20,000/acre because developers would love to buy the strip on land close to the highway.
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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Revi » Tue 19 Sep 2017, 13:45:11

We kicked the can down the road to the middle of December. Anyone know what will happen then? Will we have a huge battle that ends up being the Grinch that stole Christmas? What do you think? Will they pass raising the debt ceiling?
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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Revi » Thu 21 Sep 2017, 08:07:31

Here's a proposal to scrap the debt ceiling altogether:

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/s ... bt-ceiling
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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 21 Sep 2017, 15:03:53

Revi wrote:Here's a proposal to scrap the debt ceiling altogether:

http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/s ... bt-ceiling


Sure. Why not run the national debt up even faster?

Obama ran us up to 20 trillion in debt---why shouldn't Trump add another 20 trillion in debt?

What could possibly go wrong?

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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Revi » Mon 25 Sep 2017, 08:16:01

The Republican budget runs it up about a Trillion a year! That's even with kicking people off of insurance. They will end up putting the deficit up at least another 4 trillion, and probably more. Considering that we just had 600 billion in damage this month from the multiple hurricanes we are already in the hole. I really think we should up the debt ceiling, but be aware that this is going to end at some point, and maybe we should figure out a way to default gracefully and turn into a different place. It's like planning for the boat to sink. Good idea to have some kind of a lifeboat! Maybe establish some kind of sustainable communities now? When it goes down it's going to be a lot like Puerto Rico now. A few solar panels and some kind of a way to get water can make all the difference...
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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Revi » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 14:12:59

We are up against another debt ceiling, but it looks like they might fix it until the middle of January with this:
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/ ... own-304923

It's just a really temporary fix. Can you believe that they have no problem upping the debt ceiling nowadays?
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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 14:31:29

Revi wrote:The Republican budget runs it up about a Trillion a year!


Sorry, but no---thats completely wrong.

The CBO estimates the R tax cut proposal will add about ca. 100 billon per year, or roughly trillion in debt over 10 years.

The Ds and the MSM keep forgetting to mention that these budget estimates are based on a 10 year long time span.

And if the GDP growth rate goes up half a percent above the pathetic growth rate we saw during the Obama years, tax revenue will increase and there literally will be no effect on the deficit.

Don't feel bad about being taken in by this latest "fake news" The constant drumbeat of disinformation from the media can really confuse people.

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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 15:37:58

Plantagenet wrote:
Revi wrote:The Republican budget runs it up about a Trillion a year!


Sorry, but no---thats completely wrong.

The CBO estimates the R tax cut proposal will add about ca. 100 billon per year, or roughly trillion in debt over 10 years.

The Ds and the MSM keep forgetting to mention that these budget estimates are based on a 10 year long time span.

And if the GDP growth rate goes up half a percent above the pathetic growth rate we saw during the Obama years, tax revenue will increase and there literally will be no effect on the deficit.

Don't feel bad about being taken in by this latest "fake news" The constant drumbeat of disinformation from the media can really confuse people.

Cheers!

And as a reader of the NYT, the liberals clearly have an interest in a constant drumbeat of "tax bill doom" FUD, as their way to compaign against all things GOP.

It's pretty laughable as the editors scream about the projected $1 to $1.5 trillion in additional debt projected over the next decade (always pretending that higher growth rates are impossible) -- and with the other side of their mouths complain about nearly every attempt to curb a tax preference (and reduce the budget deficit) as though it's the end of the world.

I'm no Trump fan and I'm a moderate, but the liberals really are way over the top on the tax package issue. There are pros and cons for most people, and overall it's likely mostly a "meh", after all the compromising that was done to get the sausage making done.
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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby GHung » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 16:23:59

Outcast_Searcher wrote:.......
It's pretty laughable as the editors scream about the projected $1 to $1.5 trillion in additional debt projected over the next decade (always pretending that higher growth rates are impossible) -- and with the other side of their mouths complain about nearly every attempt to curb a tax preference (and reduce the budget deficit) as though it's the end of the world.

I'm no Trump fan and I'm a moderate, but the liberals really are way over the top on the tax package issue. There are pros and cons for most people, and overall it's likely mostly a "meh", after all the compromising that was done to get the sausage making done.


In my case, I simply don't like bald-face liars. My own Congressman, super deficit hawk Mark Meadows (chairman of the "Freedom" caucus) swore to my face at a town hall meeting he would NEVER support a tax bill that even had a chance of raising the deficit. He LIED. Bob Corker, next door in Tennessee, who I had a bit of respect for, swore the same thing. He lied. At least Corker has enough sense to not run again (or so he says). Meadows prefers to shut the government down while giving his business buddies tax cuts. He did it before, so I don't doubt he'll do it again, even if it costs his district $millions like it did last time. It's a fairly poor rural district that can't afford these liars' games.
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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 18:08:36

GHung wrote:
In my case, I simply don't like bald-face liars. My own Congressman, super deficit hawk Mark Meadows (chairman of the "Freedom" caucus) swore to my face at a town hall meeting he would NEVER support a tax bill that even had a chance of raising the deficit. He LIED. Bob Corker, next door in Tennessee, who I had a bit of respect for, swore the same thing. He lied. At least Corker has enough sense to not run again (or so he says). Meadows prefers to shut the government down while giving his business buddies tax cuts. He did it before, so I don't doubt he'll do it again, even if it costs his district $millions like it did last time. It's a fairly poor rural district that can't afford these liars' games.


You are right. Absolutely everybody lies in DC, especially the D and R politicians. The lying about the R tax bill has been blatant and constant on both sides.

So the next question is....is the new R tax bill good or bad for people and for the US economy????

I'm one of those people who has been "itemizing" for years, and as far as I tell I won't have to itemize now and like most people I'll get a small but not insignificant tax cut as well. That makes me happy.

As far as the effect of the R tax bill on the economy as whole and jobs and pay raises and the deficits, I can see how it might be good for the economy and I can see how it might not do much or even make things worse. But I think we'll have to wait a bit to to see what the effects of the tax bill actually are.

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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 19:01:58

Is growth good or bad for humanity?

Short term?

Long (generational and more) term?
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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 20:11:30

Much ado about nothing. Political posturing We all know US is going to keep borrowing
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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Revi » Thu 21 Dec 2017, 11:14:11

The debt ceiling doesn't matter until it does. I wonder if it will pass? I think they'll kick the can down the road a little until the middle of January, since it's attached to hurricane relief, and who wouldn't vote for that?

It's the middle of January we need to watch. They might be able to make it to March with "extraordinary measures".

That's when it gets interesting...
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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Cog » Thu 21 Dec 2017, 11:41:10

What extraordinary circumstance would prevent them from raising the debt ceiling? Nothing comes to mind. As long as the government can pay the interest on the debt, this show will continue.
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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Revi » Thu 21 Dec 2017, 12:07:37

"Extraordinary measures" is what they say to borrow the G Fund from Government pensions.

https://federalnewsradio.com/tsp/2017/1 ... t-ceiling/

It's already started as of around December 9th!

From the above:
"Even though the federal government maxed out its “debt ceiling” limit to borrow new funds on or around Dec. 9, according to Congressional Budget Office estimates, the Treasury Department can continue to borrow through these extraordinary measures until it runs out of cash in March or April 2018. Congress is expected to vote on extending the debt ceiling around that time."
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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby GHung » Thu 21 Dec 2017, 12:12:18

Cog wrote:What extraordinary circumstance would prevent them from raising the debt ceiling? Nothing comes to mind. As long as the government can pay the interest on the debt, this show will continue.


It isn't an extraordinary event that will hold things up. It's people like Mark Meadows (my congressman) and the 'Freedom Caucus'. He's pretty much said they want to crash the federal government back to a pre-New Deal level. Then, again, this statement has been removed from his website since he got on board with the tax bill:

"In order to put us back on a path to budgetary balance and economic prosperity, we must offer bold solutions that tackle the drivers of the debt, including major reforms to our federal budget, tax code and entitlement systems. I will do everything in my power to rein in wasteful spending, fraud and abuse.....


.... which used to be at this link: https://meadows.house.gov/issues/federal-budget/ POOF!

Deficits, schmeficits: House conservatives cast aside fiscal warnings to make way for tax cuts

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpos ... 07b92dfff0


... and more hypocrisy .....

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stancollen ... e9c02d48cd

.... going into an election year it seems.

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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Revi » Thu 21 Dec 2017, 12:36:42

Yes, we're in for some interesting times. I guess the sticking point is the defense spending now:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-12-2 ... wn-weekend

From the above:
"In the House, the CR will likely face unanimous Democratic opposition because it doesn’t address a host of Democratic priorities, including immigration, money for the opioid crisis and a boost for non-defense spending caps.

Furthermore, Republicans definitely don’t have the votes to counter a filibuster in the Senate. And with defense hawks and conservative lawmakers joining together in opposition, it’s unlikely the CR in its current form could even pass the House.

So with the clock running out, the House Rules Committee is set to meet early Thursday morning to prepare both the CR and the disaster relief bill for floor votes later in the day.

But given the sheer number of competing interests needing to be squared, it’s likely that an eventual vote on the CR will go down to the wire. Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan have repeatedly promised that a Christmas shutdown will be averted, even if the political brinksmanship must continue into the early hours of Saturday morning, or even beyond...

At this point, it’s still not clear why Ryan and McConnell are so confident. President Donald Trump has reportedly mused that a shutdown could benefit Republicans as voters would blame Democrats for opposing the essential funding bill."
Last edited by Revi on Thu 21 Dec 2017, 12:46:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 21 Dec 2017, 12:41:33

I'm more concerned about the sticking point is in the Senate, where the Rs need ca. 8 D votes to overcome a filibuster by the Ds and pass the stopgap government funding bill.

Now that the Rs have united to pass the tax cuts they can probably unite to vote to fund the goverment. But If there aren't 8 Ds willing to put their country ahead of their party, then the Ds are going to shut down the government.

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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby GHung » Thu 21 Dec 2017, 12:58:09

Plantagenet wrote:The MSM isn't reporting on it, but another sticking point is in the Senate, where the Rs need ca. 8 D votes to overcome a filibuster by the Ds and pass the stopgap government funding bill.

If there aren't 8 Ds willing to put their country ahead of their party, then the Ds are going to shut down the government.

Cheers!


Right, Planty, let's blame the Democrats:

Rep. Scott DesJarlais, a member of both the Freedom Caucus and the Armed Services Committee, said he wants to force GOP leaders to send the Senate a long-term extension of defense spending. “We’re doing our troops a real disservice. … I think it’s going to take a couple volleys. I don’t think this thing will whip out to where the votes are there for what leadership’s proposing,” he told reporters Wednesday evening.

“So I think us - and you - are in for a long week. I don’t expect to get out of here until Friday or Saturday," he added.

Rep. Bradley Byrne (R-Ala.), a member of the House Armed Services Committee, said he was "bitterly disappointed" and would oppose a stopgap bill that didn't fund defense programs through the year.

Freedom Caucus member Rep. Ted Yoho (R-Fla.) also said he was a “lean no."

In one example of how pro-defense Republicans often clash with their libertarian-leaning colleagues, some Republican members say the surveillance program extension that was added to win the votes of several armed-services committee members is, ironically, a nonstarter for skeptics of the American security state.

Meanwhile, some conservatives were also concerned that the CR includes language to temporarily extend a surveillance program authorized by section 702 of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). “If they took [the] FISA extension off the CR, I would hold my nose and vote for it,” said Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas), another member of the Freedom Caucus......

..... Meadows (R-NC), who wants to see long-term reforms to the spying program, said he secured a commitment from leadership that there would eventually be a standalone vote on a long-term FISA reauthorization and that his group would be allowed to offer requested amendments......

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... y-on-taxes
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Re: Debt Ceiling

Unread postby Revi » Thu 21 Dec 2017, 13:19:52

It may take a while to affect us, he says hopefully...
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