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Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and die

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 14:28:06

Revi - Astute points as usual. Just a couple of small corrections. Very little oil is used to make plastics. The primary source is NG and, to a much smaller extent, refinery gases. And electricity (as is steam also) is not an energy source but a transport/storage phase. Today most electricity is made by burning fossil fuels. We are moving away from that energy SOURCE but much too slowly IMHO. Unfortunately the relatively low price of oil, NG and coal are impeding that transition.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby Cog » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 15:19:46

Price will drive transition. As it always does.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 15:50:25

ROCKMAN wrote:
Again what y'all have done is admirable. But how much would have been possible without the infrastructure that exists as a result of our voluminous fossil fuel consumption? Some credit should be acknowledged, don't ya think?


The tourists that come to Totumas to enjoy fossil fuel free renewable energy flew here on airplanes.

The solar panels Baha puts on his roof were manufactured and transported to his location using fossil fuels.

Kaiser is not walking or taking a horse to Wisconsin when he starts his new retired low energy life style.

The only folks right now who can really earn the badge of sustainable living are all those Floridians sweating in their homes with no power and no air conditioning.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 16:09:01

Yes, Rock, I believe you have received some flak here and probably in your offliine life for being associated with the "evil" FF industry. Yet, I think we in rich countries should not descend to hypocrisy as our societies have and are continuing to benefit from the tremendous energy contained within these energy sources.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 16:29:20

Ibon wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:
Again what y'all have done is admirable. But how much would have been possible without the infrastructure that exists as a result of our voluminous fossil fuel consumption? Some credit should be acknowledged, don't ya think?


The tourists that come to Totumas to enjoy fossil fuel free renewable energy flew here on airplanes.

The solar panels Baha puts on his roof were manufactured and transported to his location using fossil fuels.

Kaiser is not walking or taking a horse to Wisconsin when he starts his new retired low energy life style.

The only folks right now who can really earn the badge of sustainable living are all those Floridians sweating in their homes with no power and no air conditioning.


Once again, the Perfect is the enemy of the Good.

If you can save 90% of the FF usage, you can make it last 10X as long. Buy enough time to develop FF replacements for the more difficult applications.

Meanwhile, I'm sorry to say, everybody else who does not have the capital to renew infrastructure, they will die. Unless you can keep the refugees from entering your country with (wait for it) - A WALL - they will kill you by continuing to enter and "sharing" until you have nothing left, and you die too.

As has already been noted, the feeble alternative energy sources are limited, and there is not enough capital to transition 7.5B or 9B people to non-FF energy sources. Most of those people will die, the only question is will you let them take you down with them.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 16:29:54

Brilliant Ibon! Kudos to you RM. Praise EtP :)
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 16:42:28

KaiserJeep wrote:
Ibon wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:
Again what y'all have done is admirable. But how much would have been possible without the infrastructure that exists as a result of our voluminous fossil fuel consumption? Some credit should be acknowledged, don't ya think?


The tourists that come to Totumas to enjoy fossil fuel free renewable energy flew here on airplanes.

The solar panels Baha puts on his roof were manufactured and transported to his location using fossil fuels.

Kaiser is not walking or taking a horse to Wisconsin when he starts his new retired low energy life style.

The only folks right now who can really earn the badge of sustainable living are all those Floridians sweating in their homes with no power and no air conditioning.


Once again, the Perfect is the enemy of the Good.

If you can save 90% of the FF usage, you can make it last 10X as long. Buy enough time to develop FF replacements for the more difficult applications.
what makes you think you are saving 90%? Grow your food? Repair your own road? Maintain the security state. Energy expended in your name.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 16:53:27

To me the most complex to forecast and to execute for humanity I believe is the energy descent. We can agree that the world and all countries will be having less energy going forward. This is the profound message of Peak Oil. How we manage or mismanage this will be the difference between life and death. I agree with Kaiser that poorer countries are not in a position to handle the challenges of resource shortages and overpopulation pressures mostly due to their lack of infrastructre and material resources and that will only get worse as they are deprived either economically or militarily from energy resources. Can we in rich countries pull off a managed gradual energy descent and not descend into total chaos. I think we may be able to if we all totally buy into the notion that we must begin weaning off FF and living more simply. Then it is a matter of returning to tried and true methods of subsistence living practiced for thousands of years. And hopefully with a supportive structure of renewable energy. But nothing is certain and the wildcard is climate change and whether its impacts will overwhelm societies ability to cope.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby Cog » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 17:03:13

Chaos presents opportunity.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 17:11:30

Folks - Even though I started this aspect of the conversation I wouldn't be so harsh with the Jeepman et al. They are doing their part what ever the savings. That's the "good" the Jeepman refers to. But we need to acknowledge that it is the fairly afflient societies that are making the biggest advances by far in the utilization of alt energy systems. My tech goes to Africa every year to help them develop water wells. Do they use solar pumps? Electrified purification systems? No, they use hand pumps and what cloth rags they might have handy. Why? Because they don't have the infrastructure or trained personnel to support the more advanced technologies.

The Jeepman and Cloggie have that support. As does the Rockman's wind power base in Texas. We can take advantage of the alt tech because we can afford it. And we can afford it because we have relatively strong economies. Economies that owe much of their strength thanks to our ravenous consumption of fossil fuels.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 18:08:45

Cog wrote:Chaos presents opportunity.


I agree and consequences are interchangeable with chaos. Consequences will present opportunity. We have been fat and satiated and spoiled and slovenly and indolent with our use of energy.

Matt Simmons (RIP) who I saw twice at peak oil conferences back in the early 2000's before I came to Panama always said that oil is way too cheap and should be cherished by everyone for what it contributes to civilization. Of course he was right. We used to mention this more often in the early days on this site and haven't mentioned this for awhile on these threads. It is not oil and fossil fuels that are the source of the problem but the misuse of them.

All of the non essential wasted use for frivolous purposes by users who do not understand and cherish what a marvelous resource it is.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 19:06:52

How many of you have tried to reduce your consumption of plastic bags and wraps?
How many of you have attempted to source local foodstuffs?
How many of you have added occupancy sensors to turn off lighting in unused rooms?
How many of you use smart thermostats?
How many of you even attempt to reduce gasoline consumption?
.
.
.
I could go on and on. Step back from your self absorption, and make an effort to be frugal, even miserly, with fuels and grid energy and everything made from petroleum. Encourage your friends and family to do the same.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 19:11:32

KaiserJeep wrote:How many of you have tried to reduce your consumption of plastic bags and wraps?
How many of you have attempted to source local foodstuffs?
How many of you have added occupancy sensors to turn off lighting in unused rooms?
How many of you use smart thermostats?
How many of you even attempt to reduce gasoline consumption?
.
.
.
I could go on and on. Step back from your self absorption, and make an effort to be frugal, even miserly, with fuels and grid energy and everything made from petroleum. Encourage your friends and family to do the same.

I do all that and way more, and it made no difference. I am good with that. Really :mrgreen:
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby peripato » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 20:27:35

Cog wrote:LOL China has zero intent to move away from oil. Their deals, acquisitions, and desire for hegemony over the South China sea tell a whole different story. China means to have oil even if it involves war with another super-power.

I have to agree with you on this one. As always, watch what the f#ckers do, not say. The world has about as much chance, or hope, of transitioning away from FF, as I do in winning the Irish sweepstakes, except in a totally disorderly manner, once the fake world of finance collides head on with the real world of finite resources.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby peripato » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 20:35:20

onlooker wrote:Can we in rich countries pull off a managed gradual energy descent and not descend into total chaos. I think we may be able to if we all totally buy into the notion that we must begin weaning off FF and living more simply. Then it is a matter of returning to tried and true methods of subsistence living practiced for thousands of years. And hopefully with a supportive structure of renewable energy. But nothing is certain and the wildcard is climate change and whether its impacts will overwhelm societies ability to cope.

This is about as likely as a week with two Tuesdays. We are too far into overshoot for any kind of orderly descent. In fact, as the end approaches, we are doubling down in our efforts to maintain growth.
Last edited by peripato on Tue 12 Sep 2017, 21:32:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 20:40:14

Peripato, now why destroy my illusions haha. I think everyone can attest to my doomerish outlook on most issues. I was trying to play devil's advocate. I have to see some hope for humanity don't I ?
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby peripato » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 21:32:29

onlooker wrote:Peripato, now why destroy my illusions haha. I think everyone can attest to my doomerish outlook on most issues. I was trying to play devil's advocate. I have to see some hope for humanity don't I ?

Abandon all hope. You'll sleep better at night.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 21:37:07

peripato wrote:
onlooker wrote:Peripato, now why destroy my illusions haha. I think everyone can attest to my doomerish outlook on most issues. I was trying to play devil's advocate. I have to see some hope for humanity don't I ?

Abandon all hope. You'll sleep better at night.


Hope for humanity is double speak for keeping the BAU going.

Maybe the hope for humanity is yielding to that very thing we try so hard to resist.

Worship the .....................
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby peripato » Tue 12 Sep 2017, 23:56:52

Ibon wrote:
peripato wrote:
onlooker wrote:Peripato, now why destroy my illusions haha. I think everyone can attest to my doomerish outlook on most issues. I was trying to play devil's advocate. I have to see some hope for humanity don't I ?

Abandon all hope. You'll sleep better at night.


Hope for humanity is double speak for keeping the BAU going.

Maybe the hope for humanity is yielding to that very thing we try so hard to resist.

Worship the .....................

+++

Couldn't have said it better.
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Re: Death of Peakoil: China looks at plans to ban petrol and

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 13 Sep 2017, 05:26:55

pstarr wrote:I do all that and way more, and it made no difference. I am good with that. Really :mrgreen:


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