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PeakOil is You

CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: CO2 in the air could be green fuel feedstock

Unread postby Phildo » Thu 11 Feb 2010, 02:21:52

Graeme wrote:
Carbon capture and storage schemes propose to snatch CO2 from industrial chimneys and bury it in ocean basins or geological formations. But having gone to the trouble of capturing the gas, squirrelling it away underground is a wasted opportunity, says Dermot O'Hare at the University of Oxford. He thinks converting CO2 into methanol for use as fuel is a smarter move.



mho . . . .

Does not seem that smart of an idea. Methanol is an extreme neurotoxin, and most uses of it would just generate more CO2 -- along with CO, NOx, etc., etc.

Smarter plan with CO2 is to not generate it.
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Re: CO2 in the air could be green fuel feedstock

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 11 Feb 2010, 07:20:35

You know around a decade ago I read a fascinating article that pointed out something very simple to do about CO2, for the USA anyhow. The plan was pretty simple, neither corn stover nor straw is actually used to its full potential, farmers simply do not need nearly as much of either as they produce on an annual basis. Most of it is left to rot in the fields where it adds almost noting to organic soil content, but it does return its CO2 content to the atmosphere. The plan was to go back over the fields after harvest was done for the crops and gather the Stover and Straw that was normally left behind, bail it with the existing equipment into large dense bails, and then sink it in deep anoxic basins off the coast or into the alluvial delta fans on the ocean bottom where it would be sequestered very long term. From the calculations they did the USA could sequester half of the CO2 needed at the time to meet the Kyoto protocol goals.

You could accomplish something similar by doing the same thing with waste paper, yard waste and leaves. The problem is not that we lack the ability to do what we should, the problem is we lack the will.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clearer

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 10:39:01

BioFuels Digest

Massachusetts, the secretive Joule Unlimited (then known as Joule Biotechnologies) emerged late last year from “stealth mode” with the startling announcement that their technology could produce up to 15,000 gallons per acre of drop-in hydrocarbon fuels, using only sunlight, CO2 and (fresh, brackish or saline) water as inputs. A radical new micro-organism and a technology known as a solar converter were at the heart of Joule’s IP.

Did it the announcement change everything? No. Will it change the biofuels competitive landscape? It already has, and conceptually contains those Four Horsemen of a Market Apocalyse that VC so dearly love: disruptive, scalable, competitive, protected technology.

Almost a year has passed, and Joule has constructed and is now operating a pilot plant in Leander, Texas, where they say they have also demonstrated proof of concept on 10 renewable chemicals they describe as “blendstock for end products”. The company changed its name to Joule Unlimited, and has placed itself on a path towards what it terms initial phase 1 commercialization in late 2011, which will start with a demonstration and then add, utilizing the solar-like modularity of the company’s technology to rapidly scale.

There still hasn’t been a whole heck of a lot parsed out in the media about Joule’s magic bug, and even less analysis of the overall Joule system. So the Digest spent some time with Joule CEO Bill Sims last week, and on the heels of our “Solar Biofuels” review from last Friday, here is what we have learned about Joule...


I remember posting something about this company as it was formerly known - Joule Biotechnologies. It's been operating secretively for some time but is now out of the closet. I figured they were another algae fuels company since they referred to their technology back then as "highly engineered photosynthetic organisms". But it turns out they were working on E.Coli all along.

E.coli... Aren't those the bugs that live where the sun don't usually shine? It's funny that Joule was able to teach them the photosynthesis trick.
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby efarmer » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 11:31:22

I enjoy Joule's music and love her voice, when is "Fuel from Thin Air" coming out?
I don't fault her for having E Coli, I think we all carry some with us, and simply have to make the best we can of it. I have always been a fuel for love, and this is why I am a fuel for Joule's work.
I hope she ages gracefully, like Judy Collins.
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby davep » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 12:45:26

This could be a big thing, or it could be another Steorn or VC hoover.

I guess time will tell.
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby Oakley » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 13:16:15

Like so many of these new concepts, they never mention the cost. They claim up to 15,000 gallons per acre of hydrocarbon fuel (how much energy does it contain?) but nobody is telling how much energy goes in to create that 15,000 gallons, and what the financial cost is for that input. Show us the numbers.
"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without evidence" Thomas H Huxley
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby davep » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 14:24:57

Oakley wrote:Like so many of these new concepts, they never mention the cost. They claim up to 15,000 gallons per acre of hydrocarbon fuel (how much energy does it contain?) but nobody is telling how much energy goes in to create that 15,000 gallons, and what the financial cost is for that input. Show us the numbers.


They reckon it is competitive with 30 dollar oil. But we don't have any details. Wait and see as per usual. Just don't give up the guns and the doomstead to invest!
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby Pops » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 15:08:29

Pretty amazing what they can train a bug to do with a little inspiration from Dr. Frankenstien. I like this part:
conceptually contains those Four Horsemen of a Market Apocalyse that VC so dearly love: disruptive, scalable, competitive, protected technology.

Monsanto is the hero of business isn't it?

Finally, I can't help thinking of "I Am Legend" as the endgame of this type of science - just the doomeristic luddite in me I guess.

Imagine a world...
where a cute little E. Coli helpmate goes native...
and mankind's nightmare worries of running out of hydrocarbons turns into a fading dream...
replaced by...

Oceans Of Oil
A News Corp Production
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby davep » Mon 23 Aug 2010, 15:43:39

I was thinking the same thing Pops. But apparently it needs massive doses of CO2 to be viable.

The risk is that some of the e.coli escapes and manages to survive (and that is what e.coli is good at, unlike algae). Then we could end up in some dystopian scenario where God knows what goes wrong. They could potentially suck up any available CO2 and turn it into hydrocarbons, as the trees wilt and die.

But it could solve global warming :(
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 28 Aug 2010, 04:52:03

Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clearer

Another EEStorey...
Opium for fools.
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby Carlhole » Sat 11 Sep 2010, 23:03:26

More than one group besides Joule is working on the e.coli organism for energy production.

E. Coli Engineered to Produce Biodiesel

One alternative is to modify the E. coli microorganism to make it overproduce fatty acids, which are used to make biodiesel.

"Fatty acid molecules aren't that different from a lot of fuel molecules," says Lun, a Philadelphia resident. "Biodiesel is something that we can generate quite easily. E. coli has been used as a lab organism for more than 60 years and it's well-studied. We know a lot about its genetics and how to manipulate it. We've got to make quite drastic changes to do it and it requires major intervention."

That's where Lun's computer science expertise comes in. Lun builds computational models of the E. coli organisms to determine what would happen if changes are made. Those changes could include removing enzymes to enhance fatty acid production.

"We call it synthetic biology," he says. "It's sort of the next stage of genetic engineering. Instead of making small changes to specific genes, we're really modifying large sections of genome. We're putting in entirely new traits rather than modifying existing traits."


This is the same thing that the researchers at Joule Unlimited have done. It's not the only other group around either, I believe. There must be a bit of a race going on.
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby Expatriot » Sat 11 Sep 2010, 23:24:29

Another bald head hair regrower?

So 1 gallon every 3 square feet?

People need to understand how ridiculous this hare-brained scheme is - you're talking about an area that is 12" by 36". On perfect soil, with FF inputs, you'll be lucky to get 10 ears of corn. Try squeezing a gallon out of 10 ears of corn.

All these hare-brained schemes remind me of something someone posted on this site about 4 years ago - some dude was "growing food in the desert." It was out in the Middle East. Problem is, the guy was using huge FF inputs to make it happen - bulldozers, backhoes, and so on. Sure, you dump enough FF energy into the equation, you can grow food on the tippy top of Mt. Everest. But what does it prove.

Here is the query all these bozos need to answer - call it the "Expatriot Test."

Can you or can't you operate your hare-brained scheme with only the energy you are producing, once we give you a seed FF energy starter?

If the answer is "no," then it's just one more grow-hair scam.

Save your money - get the spray on hair.
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 12 Sep 2010, 00:29:17

Expatriot wrote:People need to understand how ridiculous this hare-brained scheme is...



A pilot plant is being built in Leander, TX. It's pretty far along. This follows good small scale tests. Scalability is the design issue and Joule claims it has the solution. The truth of the matter will be known before too long.
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby efarmer » Sun 12 Sep 2010, 12:43:30

Joule is building a plant that takes pumped in CO2 from another process that creates it and using the power of sunlight creates hydrocarbon fuels. They are touting biodiesel but the Leandert, TX plant is set to make ethanol, leaving biodiesel production for a future time.

And what is wrong with grow hair schemes? You have obviously never known the tingly excitement in your belly from blasting out of the rack in the early morn, craning your neck so you can see your noggin in the mirror while you tinkle and hoping that the sunlight streaming through the bathroom window illuminates the fine little hairs of success sprouting out on your supersized forehead. You have never cut the sweet deal of connubial bliss with your wife, wherein you tell her that her butt is getting smaller in return for her saying that it looks like your hair is coming back. You have never joined a hair regrowth pyramid marketing scheme, so that you have a shot at success even if YOU are that cursed one in a billion person that the product doesn't have any effect on.

Oh ye, of little faith.

I breathe out CO2, and I like sunlight, please oh please Joule, make me a Chia Pet kit for my bald head.
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby Expatriot » Sun 12 Sep 2010, 14:08:07

Carlhole wrote:
Expatriot wrote:People need to understand how ridiculous this hare-brained scheme is...



A pilot plant is being built in Leander, TX. It's pretty far along. This follows good small scale tests. Scalability is the design issue and Joule claims it has the solution. The truth of the matter will be known before too long.


Carlhole - You're the big 911 guy on PO.com, right?

So you can see that 911 was an inside job but you don't think that this crap is just a bunch of guys bucking for investment money?

"Here is the query all these bozos need to answer - call it the "Expatriot Test."

Can you or can't you operate your hare-brained scheme with only the energy you are producing, once we give you a seed FF energy starter?"
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 12 Sep 2010, 14:49:13

Expatriot wrote:...just a bunch of guys bucking for investment money?


I have no reason to believe that. Neither do different scientific teams involved in the same research, or venture capitalists who are funding it.

Red Herring - Yes, a suitable name for a periodical that watches bleeding edge tech businesses. You have to pass a trial-by-fire to earn the respect of the shrewd minds that pay attention to Red Herring.

Other teams are using e. coli as an experimental bio-substrate for diesel fuels production. It's reasonable to surmise that these groups see some extraordinary potential, and they want to be first to inhabit this important energy niche.

As a winner of the prestigious, annual distinction, Joule joins the ranks of Google, Yahoo!, Skype, YouTube and other past winners who were identified as leading “the next wave of disruption and innovation.”

“Choosing the companies with the strongest potential was by no means a small feat”
The Red Herring award comes on the heels of two other distinctions for Joule this month: selection to the AlwaysOn East Top 100, a list of the top private companies in the eastern US; and inclusion among Biofuels Digest’s 30 Most Transformative Technologies of 2010.

“It’s an honor for Joule to be recognized among North America’s top emerging companies, reflecting our vision for a new, sustainable oil industry and the great strides we’ve made towards its realization,” said Bill Sims, President and CEO, Joule.
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby Expatriot » Sun 12 Sep 2010, 20:56:36

Carlhole wrote:
Expatriot wrote:...just a bunch of guys bucking for investment money?


I have no reason to believe that.


EDITED - I just noticed that they have 2 patent applications pending - I will review and post again.

Sure you do. You've got a huge number. But like apple pie eating Americans who desperately don't want to believe that their govt. was involved in 911, you desperately want to believe that something as obviously stupid as "leveraging sunlight" with "E. coli" to produce "drop in" substitutes for oil, with ZERO evidence of ANYTHING is almost here.

So here's the first question - where are the patent applications? If they truly have invented a new E. coli strain that is capable of photosynthesizing an oil substitute, then am I supposed to believe that they have intentionally NOT filed any patent applications? Patents publish 18 months from filing date. So where are they?

What's that?

Not a one?

You mean to tell me that they have a way to pull CO2 out of the air and make ETOH or a complex alkane and they're taking the risk that somebody else publishes an article on a similar technology and obviates their right to a patent? For a game-changing invention?

And how about even a topical discussion of the actual gene pathways involved?

Let's forget for a second that E. coli is an enterobacter and has ZERO photosynthetic capability. Let's forget for a second that stably transforming an E. coli with the complex of genes required to allow the stable synthesis of a chloroplast or equivalent structure would be a monstrous undertaking at best. Let's forget that E. coli, even if made photosynthetic to produce ethanol or an alkane of sorts, would still need to be supplied with nutrients and so on . . .

. . . the concept that this can be scaled and fuel produced therefrom is ludicrous.

Why go to all the trouble of making E. coli photosynthetic when you could simply start with something already photosynthetic?

Here's where you are at Carl -
You have nothing to go on except broad generalization and 50 dollar illustrations on a website . . . oh, and a website "red herring" award.
There is a chasmic gap is the evidence, as no patent apps have been filed.
Like all charlatans from the Wizard of Oz to wrist magnets for cancer suppression, these hucksters rely on your gullibility to believe that "secret technology" will support their claim.

You've got nothing but religion on this one, and in this regard you are the supporter of the official version of 911, which says that magic E. coli, with no supporting evidence, brought down the towers.
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby Carlhole » Sun 12 Sep 2010, 22:07:11

What the hell, there's excitement about Joule over at BioFuels Digest. And why not? The company has a pilot plant in the final stages of construction. They have a timetable for producing fuel. The process has been tested and demonstrated. The proof is in the pudding when the pudding is ready - which will be soon.
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Re: Joule Unlimited: ‘Fuel from thin air’ comes closer, clea

Unread postby Expatriot » Sun 12 Sep 2010, 22:17:25

Just finished reading the patent applications - my opinion is reinforced by what I read.

If you look at either application, what you see is two types of examples - those written in the past tense and those written in the present tense. Those written in the past tense have actually been performed. Those written in the present tense are what are called in the patent business "prophetic example." (see - http://www.nature.com/nbt/journal/v21/n ... 7_BX1.html)

If you review the applications, as of about a year ago, they had a few bench-top experiments showing some rudimentary chemical expression of various organic molecules. Most of the examples are prophetic, and most of the application is just cookie-cutter crap you could lift out of any of 1,000 other already published applications. They have, essentially, filed a patent application on a notion that has not been implemented.

It's all just a pipe dream.

As for "they have a pilot plant" and all that hooey - yeah I know. They also make ETOH from corn. Lots of pilot plants for that, I'm guessing.

But so what? If they can't do it without burning more FF energy than energy they produce, it's all just crap. It's a wish and a dream until somebody runs a plant with the energy they produce.

Has never been done. I doubt it will be done in my lifetime.

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... ologies%22

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Pars ... ologies%22
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