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CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' technolo

Unread postby Graeme » Thu 18 Oct 2012, 20:50:29

British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' technology

A small company in the north of England has developed the “air capture” technology to create synthetic petrol using only air and electricity.
Experts tonight hailed the astonishing breakthrough as a potential “game-changer” in the battle against climate change and a saviour for the world’s energy crisis.

The technology, presented to a London engineering conference this week, removes carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

The “petrol from air” technology involves taking sodium hydroxide and mixing it with carbon dioxide before "electrolysing" the sodium carbonate that it produces to form pure carbon dioxide.

Hydrogen is then produced by electrolysing water vapour captured with a dehumidifier.

The company, Air Fuel Syndication, then uses the carbon dioxide and hydrogen to produce methanol which in turn is passed through a gasoline fuel reactor, creating petrol.

Company officials say they had produced five litres of petrol in less than three months from a small refinery in Stockton-on-Tees, Teesside.

The fuel that is produced can be used in any regular petrol tank and, if renewable energy is used to provide the electricity it could become “completely carbon neutral”.


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Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby thylacine » Thu 18 Oct 2012, 21:20:18

This article restored my faith in my fellow beings - at least the ones reading and commenting at the bottom of the piece. Most of the comments I read were very sceptical that we would be filling our tanks with air-derived fuel any time soon.
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Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby ColossalContrarian » Thu 18 Oct 2012, 21:24:04

All people need to do is to start farting into plastic bags and hooking the plastic bag up to their car. You could even devise an air capture system to go in the driver and passenger seats...
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Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 18 Oct 2012, 21:37:25

Nothing new here, Tanada has posted on this topic years ago. Powering such with 'renewables' is a joke. With nukes, maybe possible; at scale.

co2-h2o-energy-synthetic-fuel-t57236.html
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Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby dissident » Thu 18 Oct 2012, 22:26:31

SeaGypsy wrote:Nothing new here, Tanada has posted on this topic years ago. Powering such with 'renewables' is a joke. With nukes, maybe possible; at scale.

co2-h2o-energy-synthetic-fuel-t57236.html


That's right, you can't get energy out of combustion reactions going both ways. So converting CO2 back into even CH4 involves the addition of energy. I don't know why this concept is so difficult to intuitively grasp for many people. If you could extract energy going both ways you could extract an infinite amount of energy out of a single reaction involving just a few molecules and this planet would have disintegrated from all the heat a long time ago. There are no free lunches.
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Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 18 Oct 2012, 22:49:42

I predict sales of the "fuel from air" machines will provide stiff competition for the ECAT machines. :)
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Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 18 Oct 2012, 23:02:30

Plantagenet wrote:I predict sales of the "fuel from air" machines will provide stiff competition for the ECAT machines. :)

Holy Jeezus :shock: That is funny. I chuckled.

You know you could always ruin it, and blame the idiot idea on Obama. :razz:
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Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby autonomous » Thu 18 Oct 2012, 23:25:51

Plantagenet wrote:I predict sales of the "fuel from air" machines will provide stiff competition for the ECAT machines. :)


Actually, ECAT is complementary technology. Large numbers of ECAT machines are needed to produce sufficient energy to operate the "fuel from air" generating machine.
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Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 19 Oct 2012, 01:30:59

Large numbers of electric kettles are required to create lots of free steam for turbines to make electricity to run lots of electric kettles.
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Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 19 Oct 2012, 07:32:48

Looking back over this thread now that the UK is researching a comparable system brings to mind a side benefit I had not posted about earlier. If you build these plants along ocean coastlines which is the obvious choice you can load the CaO into distributary freighters and scatter it in the central ocean where it will reduce ocean acidity greatly by absorbing dissolved CO2 and sinking it to the bottom of the deep sea. Ocean acidification may be as great a threat as warming from CO2 emissions so in this way you would not only have a carbon neutral system you would also stabilize the ocean pH much sooner and stop the damage from increasing.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby Laromi » Fri 19 Oct 2012, 07:47:34

British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' technology
Revolutionary new technology that produces “petrol from air” is being produced by a British firm, it emerged tonight. The company, Air Fuel Synthesis, then uses the carbon dioxide and hydrogen to produce methanol which in turn is passed through a gasoline fuel reactor, creating petrol. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/
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Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Fri 19 Oct 2012, 20:13:24

Company officials say they had produced five litres of petrol in less than three months from a small refinery in Stockton-on-Tees, Teesside.

5 litres in 3 months thats going to take a while, spose its quicker than waiting for fossils to rot.
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Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Fri 19 Oct 2012, 23:12:19

ColossalContrarian wrote:All people need to do is to start farting into plastic bags and hooking the plastic bag up to their car. You could even devise an air capture system to go in the driver and passenger seats...
One of our regulars posted a somewhat gross image of a motorcycle version of this concept.
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Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby Graeme » Sat 20 Oct 2012, 01:16:09

Company that made 'petrol from air' breakthrough 'shudders' at prospect of oil industry approaches

Despite the interest in the breakthrough, however, the company's founder and principal investor, Professor Tony Marmont, said that he and his business colleagues would not want the oil industry to take a stake in the firm even though it is actively seeking investment partners to finance the next stage of development.

Professor Marmont, who used to work for Shell, put up half of the £1.2m used to set up the company. He said he was close to a deal with a major soft-drinks company interested in using the petrol to power its carbon-neutral vehicles.

"I would shudder at the prospect of an approach from the oil industry. My reaction would be 'I don't want to know' because I'd be fearful they would buy into the business and work to shut it down," he said.

"We've had calls offering us money from all over the world. We've never had that before. We've made the first petrol with our demonstration plant but the next stage is to build a bigger plant capable of producing one tonne of petrol a day, which means we need between £5m and £6m."


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Re: British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' tech

Unread postby autonomous » Sat 20 Oct 2012, 14:37:14

ColossalContrarian wrote:All people need to do is to start farting into plastic bags and hooking the plastic bag up to their car. You could even devise an air capture system to go in the driver and passenger seats..


Nothing new here, people have a strange obsession for this sort of thing:

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Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 10 May 2013, 16:29:04

Laromi wrote:British engineers produce amazing 'petrol from air' technology
Revolutionary new technology that produces “petrol from air” is being produced by a British firm, it emerged tonight. The company, Air Fuel Synthesis, then uses the carbon dioxide and hydrogen to produce methanol which in turn is passed through a gasoline fuel reactor, creating petrol. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/


I am impatient for someone somewhere to scale up these laboratory proven technologies and find out if they are practical on an industrial scale. We can test in the lab and talk about the results forever without having any real impact unless someone gets the first plant built as proof of concept and economical viability.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby radon » Sat 11 May 2013, 05:22:55

Fossil fuels = CO2 + H2O + Energy (1)

CO2 + H2O + Energy (2) = Synthetic fuels

Full circle, with the exception that Energy (2) is substantially greater than Energy (1). Indeed, Kin-Dza-Dza. The worst energy balance possible. Maybe, just leave the fossil fuels untouched? :)

Really shows the lengths at which people are ready to go to have their personal vehicles running, no negative eroeis are a problem. Probably, there is something archetypal in the humans psychology to having a personal horse.

Actually, it may well turn out that running an electric vehicles fleet is more effective than running ICEs at eroeis that make that synthetic fuel viable.
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Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 13 May 2013, 10:59:33

radon wrote:Fossil fuels = CO2 + H2O + Energy (1)

CO2 + H2O + Energy (2) = Synthetic fuels

Full circle, with the exception that Energy (2) is substantially greater than Energy (1). Indeed, Kin-Dza-Dza. The worst energy balance possible. Maybe, just leave the fossil fuels untouched? :)

Really shows the lengths at which people are ready to go to have their personal vehicles running, no negative eroeis are a problem. Probably, there is something archetypal in the humans psychology to having a personal horse.

Actually, it may well turn out that running an electric vehicles fleet is more effective than running ICEs at eroeis that make that synthetic fuel viable.



My personal goal isn't for us to chase our tail in a futile cycle wasting energy, rather it is to stop adding additional CO2 to the atmosphere while allowing our preponderance of ICE fossil fuel burning engines to remain useful as distributed working units. The only way I can find to do this is to take diffuse energy like electricity from Wind % Solar and other non carbon emitting sources, Fission power and large scale Hydro power to build chemical molecules that ICE engines can use.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Unread postby radon » Mon 13 May 2013, 11:20:21

Well that's a good idea then. Storing excessive Wind&Solar that otherwise lost anyway certainly makes a lot of sense in spite of the energy conversion loss.
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Re: Future Energy Technology News

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 24 Jul 2013, 10:55:27

From: http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/silve ... 6C10719235

“Silver lining? Greenhouse gas could be vast, untapped source of energy”

Just amazing how much crap gets printed because they can toss out a sexy headline. If you waste the time to read the article: “For the proof-of-concept, the researchers used a well-known technique to bubble the gas and air through the liquid solution. That process uses more energy than the energy it produces:” Yes indeed…a great concept proved – we can create energy by using more energy than we create. IOW if we don’t use this technique we have even more energy.

But there’s hope:” "Of course you need a lot more technological development before this is a system that can be practiced." So there you have it folks: as soon as we can figure out the technology to use CO2 to make more energy than the energy input we’ll have it made. BTW even if they ever do develop the technology it still doesn’t eliminate the amount of CO2 released to the atmosphere. Just makes a better use of it before it joins the rest of it GHG brothers.

And editors actually get paid to produce such pieces.
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