Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 29 May 2018, 06:26:33

Thanks for posting
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 10252
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: US East Coast

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 29 May 2018, 14:18:06

And I second Newf's thanks.

MBS wrote: "As the GW catastrophe goes on we will show you the consequences"

This seems to me to be the main thing to do at this point. We had a responsibility to not do this thing, then to stop doing it when we knew the consequences...but we collectively didn't do any of that...

Now the minimum basic responsibility is to not turn our heads away as the consequences start to hit more and more people harder and harder till we are all eventually washed away in 'the deluge.'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SX-HFcSIoU
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 17313
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 29 May 2018, 18:10:51

dohboi wrote:Now the minimum basic responsibility is to not turn our heads away as the consequences start to hit more and more people harder and harder till we are all eventually washed away in 'the deluge.'


You are getting closer. Just one more brief step and you will be there seeing these consequences as the solution. It doesn't mean you turn your head away, it means you lean into the consequences as this great grinding process of converting our global culture from indolent gluttons to submitting to limits. Part of that process also is hardening the heart to those who do wash away in the deluge.

We gave up the privilege of compassion for all a couple of billion humans ago.

I teach this to some of our guests who get all upset over seeing mangy starving dogs on the side of the road here in Panama. I tell them to learn to compartmentalize your compassion, you will drive yourself ill if you extend this to every starving mutt you see on the side of the road.
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6291
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 29 May 2018, 18:21:21

Yes, compassion within the tribe is protective. Over extending it outside the tribe becomes dangerous.

Our progeny are likely to be more pragmatic about such issues. We are confused by our relative wealth.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 10252
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: US East Coast

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 29 May 2018, 18:32:49

I think you can still have compassion for all life while recognizing that our generation does NOT deserve more than all potential future generations. And that we can submit to the inevitable and still alleviate greatly any accompanying suffering. This can be facilitated by truly recognizing the ephemeral nature of all life in this Universe. Ibon, as a Biologist you can see this via the short lives of some of the critters you have studied, to see them replaced by so many new ones. In Nature is it not rreferred to as the cycle of birth, death and rebirth?
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 9115
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 29 May 2018, 21:36:37

" as the solution"

There is no 'solution,' just dis-solution

And, sorry, Ib, you seem to be trying desperately to be some kind of yoda here showing us the higher happy perspective, but it just looks to me like a desperate very typically Western attempt to put a happy smiley face on everything however horrendous...just because it exists, and if it exists, apparently it must be good.

Really, you need to read or re-read or watch or re-watch your Voltaire, particularly Candide.

Just because something exists does not mean that it represents the ultimate good. We do not, in fact, live in the 'best of all possible worlds,' closer to the opposite. And it is arguable that it is exactly those who thought and think that we are inevitably in 'the best of all possible worlds' that have brought about and helped rationalize bringing about this probably worst of all possible worlds...



Hope all have a safe and restful night...my gardens finally got some free watering and respite from the heat tonight, so right now, I am actually feeling kind of best of all possible worlds-ish, at least for the next couple days! :) :) :) :)
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 17313
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 30 May 2018, 06:43:41

dohboi wrote:
Just because something exists does not mean that it represents the ultimate good.


What exists has no adjective of good or bad. It simply is. And the trajectory of moving through the consequences of our inability to self regulate as a species happens to be, by default, the only game in town. You and I could wish it otherwise but that doesn't change anything. Once one deeply accepts that the correction happens through the imbalances we are creating then you can move on to embracing those consequences.


We do not, in fact, live in the 'best of all possible worlds,' closer to the opposite. And it is arguable that it is exactly those who thought and think that we are inevitably in 'the best of all possible worlds' that have brought about and helped rationalize bringing about this probably worst of all possible worlds...


I have some sad violin music playing in my ears now to accompany your dreary prose Dohboi. Again, this is not the best of possible worlds, neither the worst. You persist on wanting to put adjectives to describe our species dilemma.

Our big and bulky overshot human population is like a massive barge floating on still placid waters drifting with no paddle or motor, we can see the froth up ahead of the white water, we can hear the rumble and roar of cascading consequences approaching.

Yes, each individual has to make his or her peace with the Overshoot Predator. I have done so and I wake up every morning, smile to the rising sun, and those three little birds, out my window, their singing this sweet song, a melody pure and true, and so this is my message to you Dohboi..... Don't worry, about a thing, cause every little thing, is going to be all right, humans will die off, nature will heal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ind7BEZgWJU
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6291
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 30 May 2018, 10:08:15

"Yes, each individual has to make his or her peace with the Overshoot Predator come up with our own rationalizations for why we don't have to ever think about or ever take any responsibility for our own contributions to making current and future conditions the sh!t storm it has become and the worse one it will become. I have done so and I wake up every morning, smile to the rising sun..."

(Fixed that for ya! :) 'cause 'every little thing' ain't gonna be alright...)
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 17313
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 30 May 2018, 10:52:45

In regards to rationalizations they are as resilient as religious belief and I fully expect the In Group / Out Group tribal nature of human societies will result in some pretty elaborate mind bending rationalizations as those who are privileged with the remaining abundance as we decline will twist and turn their rationalizations to deny those who are more constrained.

Under constraints we will become more generous toward our in group and pull together but become more selfish toward the Out Groups. What Newfie mentioned. This will indeed accelerate the correction.

Is this good or bad or ethical or moral. Good question. But largely irrelevant I am afraid. Wasn't it a few billion humans ago that we surrendered the privilege of the moral high ground?
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6291
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby ozcad » Wed 30 May 2018, 12:46:18

GS: Grandpa, why did you bequeath such a $#!+storm upon us?
GP: Hush, I have adapted my view and am at peace.
User avatar
ozcad
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri 03 Jul 2015, 12:26:35
Location: Australia

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 30 May 2018, 13:44:13

In all seriousness, there will be fables written in the future about who we are today and it wont look pretty.

What will give those fables gravitas is the consequences. Trying to tell those fables today has no potency as it is putting the cart before the horse.

Let us all bow our heads in shame for a moment.

OK finished? Now get back to whatever it was you were doing........

It is kind of like being catholic, go to church on Sundays, make your confessions humbling yourself before god and then on Monday morning go back to boning your neighbors wife.
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6291
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Thu 31 May 2018, 08:32:15

oz wrote:

GS: Grandpa, why did you bequeath such a $#!+storm upon us?
GP: Hush, I have adapted my view and am at peace.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 17313
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 31 May 2018, 11:11:05

Does every discussion at peakoil.com have to come down to grand statments re the human condition?

Yes we are apes. Yes we are selfish apes. But we are also loving apes . . . that too is in our genes. We adore our children and our tribe. And some of us are sophisticated enough to extrapolate 'our tribe' to be all humanity. I love all people. Can I kiss you? lol

A review of what is actually happening with droughts, intense heat waves, and forest fires, to name a few, shows that they are in long-term decline, and the experts point to increasing worldwide soil moisture content as the primary reason. Rising temperatures lead to higher water vapor in the atmosphere and thence to increased precipitation. An increase in the CO2 fertilization effect serves to decrease the size of plants' pores and reduce transpiration needed, leading to lessened water usage, leaving moisture in the ground.

These two factors, working in tandem, have largely been responsible for what is likely the biggest untold story about our Earth and its changing climate: an amazing greening of the Earth is taking place. According to NASA scientists, 25 to 50% of the Earth is "greening," reflecting increasing vegetation, and only 4% is "browning," or showing decline in plant life. Probably the best example is the southern Sahara (Sahel), where 300,000 square kilometers of former desert are turning into a lush grassland, and the NASA experts tell us it is due to climate change.


Will somebody explain how and why in this time of great climate peril . . . green vegetation covering the earth's surface has increased by %50
November 2016
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 27066
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 31 May 2018, 21:58:39

pstarr wrote:Will somebody explain how and why in this time of great climate peril . . . green vegetation covering the earth's surface has increased by %50

Do you understand that intuition is a poor substitute for science?

So, just because your intuition says that a world in the early stages of global warming getting green must be a good thing, doesn't mean that's actually so.

Any more than a "wind god" explained wind better than pressure gradients.

Or any more than various creation myths in various religious books explained the development of the biosphere better than the science behind evolution.

We know that a high CO2 Earth ends up with a climate rather like Venus, via science. How will your lush plant life like THAT? (Hint: lead melts at typical Venus surface temps).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 5261
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 31 May 2018, 23:35:10

"We know that a high CO2 Earth ends up with a climate rather like Venus, via science"

We know that? No we don't. Because it never happened. Venus never had forests, humans, automobiles or hysterical AGW idiots . . . like we now have on earth

I have linked to the the Nature article and the associated NASA data. You might want to dig yourself out of your hole and try to fudge your way through some actual science. Indisputable proof that increased CO2 emissions and planetary vegetation have been in lockstep since 1983.
November 2016
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 27066
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 00:09:41

pstarr wrote:"We know that a high CO2 Earth ends up with a climate rather like Venus, via science"

We know that? No we don't. Because it never happened. Venus never had forests, humans, automobiles or hysterical AGW idiots . . . like we now have on earth

I have linked to the the Nature article and the associated NASA data. You might want to dig yourself out of your hole and try to fudge your way through some actual science. Indisputable proof that increased CO2 emissions and planetary vegetation have been in lockstep since 1983.


Yes, Greenland may become Green again. But, I don't think that's a good thing.
User avatar
jedrider
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1013
Joined: Thu 28 May 2009, 09:10:44

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 10:36:40

jedrider, that is not what the science tells us. It makes no predictions regarding global warming, only what has already happened.

Landsat satellites have been photographing the planet since around 1983. Those images show a greening earth. There is not question of this. Analysis concluded that the only explanation for such a universal occurrence could only be . . . increased CO2. All other factors were discounted.

Furthermore, the physiologic mechanism by which this increased growth occurs has itself been studied for decades. It is well know that H20 (and CO2) movement through the plant (from the roots to the leaves) is mediated by the plant's stomata, openings in the leaves. The plants breath through the stomata. When there is extra CO2 in the atmosphere, the stomata stay shut longer. The plants and trees lose less water through evaporation in the leaves. The surrounding soil actually stays wetter. The entire ecosystem benefits.

We know this.
November 2016
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 27066
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 11:20:19

pstarr wrote:"We know that a high CO2 Earth ends up with a climate rather like Venus, via science"

We know that? No we don't. Because it never happened. Venus never had forests, humans, automobiles or hysterical AGW idiots . . . like we now have on earth

I have linked to the the Nature article and the associated NASA data. You might want to dig yourself out of your hole and try to fudge your way through some actual science. Indisputable proof that increased CO2 emissions and planetary vegetation have been in lockstep since 1983.

So in your tiny little mind, despite all the scientific evidence, you deny that higher CO2 levels raise temperatures? You deny that Venus has a CO2 level of 96%. Or that the composition of its atmosphere is what causes it to have such high temps, despite what science says?

I never said Venus was like earth. I said if earth ends up with high CO2 levels, it becomes hot like Venus. That's basic science, whether you deny it or not. Whether vegetation increases in the short term is irrelevant. Can you grasp that simple fact?

Hint: True or false. Has CO2 increased on earth since 1983, despite the vegetation increase?
As you admit above, yes it has.

https://www.space.com/18527-venus-atmosphere.html
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
User avatar
Outcast_Searcher
COB
COB
 
Posts: 5261
Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 20:26:42

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 11:44:16

pstarr wrote:jedrider, that is not what the science tells us. It makes no predictions regarding global warming, only what has already happened.
...We know this.


No, we don't know this. That is NOT what the science tells us. "It makes no predictions..." ONLY refers to THAT particular article, NOT the science. Actually, it HAS already happened. We DO know what can happen to the earth climate system. We only don't know how fast. Maybe, making the analogy to Venus is a stretch, but wherever we are headed, it certainly doesn't bode well for large mammals nor our current ecosystem, which we are completely dependent upon. I suppose, some small fraction of mankind can survive on a diet of jelly fish, but at that point, I don't think we will be sustaining a technologically advanced civilization, and I would call that moment 'game over' for us with 'no bonus points'.
User avatar
jedrider
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1013
Joined: Thu 28 May 2009, 09:10:44

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 12:52:24

jedrider, you are confusing cause and effect, correlation with causation.

Yes we are screwing up ecosystems with our waste. Plastic and sh@t is clogging and killing rivers. Mining pollutes streams and bays. Overhunting and forest destruction is killing off large mammal populations, industrial agriculture does it for insects and amphibians. And yes we do depend on a healthy planet, our ecosystems support up.

But we must not confuse cause and effect. CO2 is a symptom of an industrial machine gone haywire. It's a good marker for industrial abuse, but nothing more. Certainly not the immediate threat that peak oil is. Peak oil will take care of the human scourge like nothing else.
November 2016
pstarr
NeoMaster
NeoMaster
 
Posts: 27066
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

PreviousNext

Return to Environment, Weather & Climate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests